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Melky Cabrera Offline
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The New Big East is a Better Big East
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2013 07:53 AM by Melky Cabrera.)
03-15-2013 07:49 AM
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jnewyouth Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
Atleast the Times respects you. ESPN doesn't acknowledge the new (C7) Big East, claims this is the last Big East Tournament ever.
03-15-2013 08:56 AM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 08:56 AM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Atleast the Times respects you. ESPN doesn't acknowledge the new (C7) Big East, claims this is the last Big East Tournament ever.

03-lmfao 03-lmfao 03-lmfao
03-15-2013 09:59 AM
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OrangeCrush22 Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 08:56 AM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Atleast the Times respects you. ESPN doesn't acknowledge the new (C7) Big East, claims this is the last Big East Tournament ever.

Technically it is. This Big East will be somewhat of a spinoff.
03-15-2013 10:42 AM
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NJRedMan Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 10:42 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:56 AM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Atleast the Times respects you. ESPN doesn't acknowledge the new (C7) Big East, claims this is the last Big East Tournament ever.

Technically it is. This Big East will be somewhat of a spinoff.

I don't see how half the teams is a spinoff. It's just sports writers being idiots thinking that the league is 3 or 4 teams who wont be there anymore. Is anyone really eulogizing UofL who has been here for what 7 years? It's about the last time Cuse, ND and Pitt will play in this tournament. UConn would have been in there too if they were eligible. They aren't pinning for more Rutgers or USF Big East tournament appearances.

Next year 5 of the 8 original teams will still be playing in the Big East tournament at MSG. How is that a spin off?
03-15-2013 11:49 AM
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jnewyouth Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
Don't be confused, I'm siding with the C7 concerning ESPN's brushoff. That network is doing everything possible to ruin conferences and teams that aren't on their network.
03-15-2013 12:43 PM
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NJRedMan Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 12:43 PM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Don't be confused, I'm siding with the C7 concerning ESPN's brushoff. That network is doing everything possible to ruin conferences and teams that aren't on their network.

They know we aren't coming back thats why they are acting like it's the last because it's the last THEY will air.
03-15-2013 12:51 PM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
I think like it or not, it is the last Big East tourney of this version of the conference. I think part of the reason why folks are viewing it like the last is the fact that we've not performed in the tourney. Only 2/13 champions since 2000 entering this year.
03-15-2013 01:09 PM
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NJRedMan Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 01:09 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think like it or not, it is the last Big East tourney of this version of the conference. I think part of the reason why folks are viewing it like the last is the fact that we've not performed in the tourney. Only 2/13 champions since 2000 entering this year.

2 out of 12. The 13th will be decided on Sat night.
03-15-2013 02:07 PM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 02:07 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 01:09 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think like it or not, it is the last Big East tourney of this version of the conference. I think part of the reason why folks are viewing it like the last is the fact that we've not performed in the tourney. Only 2/13 champions since 2000 entering this year.

2 out of 12. The 13th will be decided on Sat night.

actually this would be the 14th. 99-00 season was year 1. And, that actually helps the C7, St John's won in 99-00. Georgetown in 2006-07 was the only C7 school since then to win. Heck, the Hoyas are only C7 team to even make the finals since then(3x).
03-15-2013 02:13 PM
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Xavier Musketeers Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 12:43 PM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Don't be confused, I'm siding with the C7 concerning ESPN's brushoff. That network is doing everything possible to ruin conferences and teams that aren't on their network.

Apparently part of the Fox deal is the new BE can't even talk to ESPN, NBC, CBS, etc. in exchange for the big money. So I imagine they'll be a little pissed off.
03-15-2013 03:11 PM
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OrangeCrush22 Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 11:49 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:42 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:56 AM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Atleast the Times respects you. ESPN doesn't acknowledge the new (C7) Big East, claims this is the last Big East Tournament ever.

Technically it is. This Big East will be somewhat of a spinoff.

I don't see how half the teams is a spinoff. It's just sports writers being idiots thinking that the league is 3 or 4 teams who wont be there anymore. Is anyone really eulogizing UofL who has been here for what 7 years? It's about the last time Cuse, ND and Pitt will play in this tournament. UConn would have been in there too if they were eligible. They aren't pinning for more Rutgers or USF Big East tournament appearances.

Next year 5 of the 8 original teams will still be playing in the Big East tournament at MSG. How is that a spin off?

The Catholic 7 left the conference, then purchased the Big East name. It's a new conference, that's why this is technically the last Big East tournament.

Re-branded Conference = Est. 1979
Big East Conference = Est. 2013
03-15-2013 08:58 PM
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NJRedMan Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 08:58 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 11:49 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:42 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:56 AM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Atleast the Times respects you. ESPN doesn't acknowledge the new (C7) Big East, claims this is the last Big East Tournament ever.

Technically it is. This Big East will be somewhat of a spinoff.

I don't see how half the teams is a spinoff. It's just sports writers being idiots thinking that the league is 3 or 4 teams who wont be there anymore. Is anyone really eulogizing UofL who has been here for what 7 years? It's about the last time Cuse, ND and Pitt will play in this tournament. UConn would have been in there too if they were eligible. They aren't pinning for more Rutgers or USF Big East tournament appearances.

Next year 5 of the 8 original teams will still be playing in the Big East tournament at MSG. How is that a spin off?

The Catholic 7 left the conference, then purchased the Big East name. It's a new conference, that's why this is technically the last Big East tournament.

Re-branded Conference = Est. 1979
Big East Conference = Est. 2013

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Also it wouldn't matter in your scenario because there WILL be a Big East tournament next year. The real issue is ESPN wont be covering it so they are acting like there wont BE a Big East tournament so folks don't go looking for it next year. it is ESPN after all.
03-15-2013 09:21 PM
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
Of course there will be a Big East tournament next year. That's pretty arrogant that the handful of teams that left claim you 7 have no claim to it for posterity. ESPN is so obvious.
03-16-2013 11:27 PM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 08:58 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 11:49 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:42 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:56 AM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Atleast the Times respects you. ESPN doesn't acknowledge the new (C7) Big East, claims this is the last Big East Tournament ever.

Technically it is. This Big East will be somewhat of a spinoff.

I don't see how half the teams is a spinoff. It's just sports writers being idiots thinking that the league is 3 or 4 teams who wont be there anymore. Is anyone really eulogizing UofL who has been here for what 7 years? It's about the last time Cuse, ND and Pitt will play in this tournament. UConn would have been in there too if they were eligible. They aren't pinning for more Rutgers or USF Big East tournament appearances.

Next year 5 of the 8 original teams will still be playing in the Big East tournament at MSG. How is that a spin off?

The Catholic 7 left the conference, then purchased the Big East name. It's a new conference, that's why this is technically the last Big East tournament.

Re-branded Conference = Est. 1979
Big East Conference = Est. 2013

The C7 did not leave the Big East. Syracuse, Pitt, etc. did that.

The C7 exercised their prearranged option to initiate a split of the conference into 2 equal entities. As you know, the agreement had a process to split the assets, one of which is the name. In the negotiations, the 2 parties agreed that the C7 would take the name (which obviously could not be split) and that the remaining 3 would therefore get more of the financial assets. That is not buying the name.

This is not a new conference any more than the expanded Big East of 1995 was a new conference or the reorganized conference of 2005 was a new conference. It is a continuation of the basketball-only side of the conference. Given that there were only 3 Big East football members left on the other side, it is really the only legitimate continuation of the conference. And next year's Big East Tournament will be one more in a long series of Big East Tournaments. This year's is not the last Big East Tournament - technically or otherwise.

For all practical purposes, UConn, Cincinnati, and USF have left to join a new version of CUSA. That's the new conference.
(This post was last modified: 03-16-2013 11:41 PM by Melky Cabrera.)
03-16-2013 11:40 PM
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NJRedMan Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-16-2013 11:40 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:58 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 11:49 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 10:42 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:56 AM)jnewyouth Wrote:  Atleast the Times respects you. ESPN doesn't acknowledge the new (C7) Big East, claims this is the last Big East Tournament ever.

Technically it is. This Big East will be somewhat of a spinoff.

I don't see how half the teams is a spinoff. It's just sports writers being idiots thinking that the league is 3 or 4 teams who wont be there anymore. Is anyone really eulogizing UofL who has been here for what 7 years? It's about the last time Cuse, ND and Pitt will play in this tournament. UConn would have been in there too if they were eligible. They aren't pinning for more Rutgers or USF Big East tournament appearances.

Next year 5 of the 8 original teams will still be playing in the Big East tournament at MSG. How is that a spin off?

The Catholic 7 left the conference, then purchased the Big East name. It's a new conference, that's why this is technically the last Big East tournament.

Re-branded Conference = Est. 1979
Big East Conference = Est. 2013

The C7 did not leave the Big East. Syracuse, Pitt, etc. did that.

The C7 exercised their prearranged option to initiate a split of the conference into 2 equal entities. As you know, the agreement had a process to split the assets, one of which is the name. In the negotiations, the 2 parties agreed that the C7 would take the name (which obviously could not be split) and that the remaining 3 would therefore get more of the financial assets. That is not buying the name.

This is not a new conference any more than the expanded Big East of 1995 was a new conference or the reorganized conference of 2005 was a new conference. It is a continuation of the basketball-only side of the conference. Given that there were only 3 Big East football members left on the other side, it is really the only legitimate continuation of the conference. And next year's Big East Tournament will be one more in a long series of Big East Tournaments. This year's is not the last Big East Tournament - technically or otherwise.

For all practical purposes, UConn, Cincinnati, and USF have left to join a new version of CUSA. That's the new conference.

This! 04-cheers
03-17-2013 12:10 AM
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ivet Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-16-2013 11:40 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  
(03-15-2013 08:58 PM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  The Catholic 7 left the conference, then purchased the Big East name. It's a new conference, that's why this is technically the last Big East tournament.

Re-branded Conference = Est. 1979
Big East Conference = Est. 2013

The C7 did not leave the Big East. Syracuse, Pitt, etc. did that.

The C7 exercised their prearranged option to initiate a split of the conference into 2 equal entities. As you know, the agreement had a process to split the assets, one of which is the name. In the negotiations, the 2 parties agreed that the C7 would take the name (which obviously could not be split) and that the remaining 3 would therefore get more of the financial assets. That is not buying the name.

This is not a new conference any more than the expanded Big East of 1995 was a new conference or the reorganized conference of 2005 was a new conference. It is a continuation of the basketball-only side of the conference. Given that there were only 3 Big East football members left on the other side, it is really the only legitimate continuation of the conference. And next year's Big East Tournament will be one more in a long series of Big East Tournaments. This year's is not the last Big East Tournament - technically or otherwise.

For all practical purposes, UConn, Cincinnati, and USF have left to join a new version of CUSA. That's the new conference.

Holy crap, someone was paying attention on what's been happening.
03-17-2013 12:19 AM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #18
RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-15-2013 01:09 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think like it or not, it is the last Big East tourney of this version of the conference. I think part of the reason why folks are viewing it like the last is the fact that we've not performed in the tourney. Only 2/13 champions since 2000 entering this year.

If people are viewing it this way, they're just being foolish. These things tend to run in cycles. The C7 have won 13 Big East tournaments in 34 years. They've won their share.

By the same logic that anyone might write off the C7, UConn should have been written off in the '80's because they didn't win a thing in the conference's first decade. And even after they won their first conference tournament in 1990, it was another 6 years before they won their 2nd. So, in their first 16 years of conference competition, UConn had won only 1 tournament. Just couldn't compete, right?

Pitt was even worse. They were in the conference for 20 years without winning a single tournament. It's only within the past decade that they've been able to win a couple. Miami was in the conference for 12 years without winning anything and was just as ineffective in the ACC until this year.

The fact is that since 2002, the conference tournament has been dominated by 4 schools - Louisville, UConn, Pitt, and Syracuse, who have all won multiple tournaments and who have combined for 10 of the conference's 12 tournament titles in that period. Georgetown & West Virginia won the other two.

Everyone else was unsuccessful by comparison - C7 or otherwise. We can take any other combination of schools and show the same results as the C7. How about the football 7 for example? USF, Cincinnati, Notre Dame, Miami, Virginia Tech, West Virginia, and Boston College combined to win 1 tournament in that period just like the C7.

In the 1991-2000 decade, the C7 won half the tournaments. They won 8 tournaments in 1980-90. Sometimes one group dominates, sometimes another.

Every conference has periods when a few teams dominate. In a 16 team conference, when 4 teams dominate the tournament, the other 12 are all playing second fiddle to them whether they're C7 or otherwise. Same thing happened from 1990-2001. UConn, Boston College, and Seton Hall all won multiple tournaments, combining for 8 titles in 12 years. St. John's, Providence, Syracuse, & Villanova each won singletons. Everyone else was shut out.

Finally, tournament titles are only one indicator of success. And probably not the best one since it only shows who got hot for a few days. Since the conference was reorganized in 2005-06, the C7 have combined for regular season titles (outright or shared) in 4 of the 8 years. That's a much better rate of success than in the tournament. During that same period, the C7 has gotten 2 teams to the Final Four while the 9 other members have gotten 3 teams to the Final Four. Again, pretty similar.

The C7 have been winning their share. They've just hit a dry period in the tournament as happens in every conference.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2013 12:40 AM by Melky Cabrera.)
03-17-2013 12:36 AM
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stever20 Offline
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RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
looking
1980-89 C7 8 fb 2
1990-99 C7 4 fb 6(including last 4)
2000-09 C7 2 fb 8
2010-13 fb 4

So for whatever reason, the football programs did take over- 16 of the last 18 tourney champs now football schools. That's not a dry spell. That's Sahara Desert level just about. And regular season- it's 13 of 18 years for football programs- with only this year sharing with the C7.

That's the perception issue that we will be fighting. It's why I say we need to make a splash right away. Forget the $$$ we're making. What matters most for us is a>performance on the floor, and b>exposure on TV. It is a HUGE gamble leaving ESPN. It just is.

Also- you say about the regular season- those should mean more. I disagree 100%-when you are in a conference the size of the Big East. SOS matters in that case. I mean look at the conference schedule with Georgetown and Louisville this year. Georgetown had to play 2x Marquette, St Johns, Syracuse, and Cincy. Louisville had to play 2x Syracuse, Seton Hall, So Florida, and Notre Dame. Are those the same schedules? Not even close. Now, next year with 10 teams, yes, regular season championships will matter more.
03-17-2013 01:18 AM
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Melky Cabrera Offline
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Post: #20
RE: The New Big East is a Better Big East
(03-17-2013 01:18 AM)stever20 Wrote:  looking
1980-89 C7 8 fb 2
1990-99 C7 4 fb 6(including last 4)
2000-09 C7 2 fb 8
2010-13 fb 4

So for whatever reason, the football programs did take over- 16 of the last 18 tourney champs now football schools. That's not a dry spell. That's Sahara Desert level just about. And regular season- it's 13 of 18 years for football programs- with only this year sharing with the C7.

That's the perception issue that we will be fighting. It's why I say we need to make a splash right away. Forget the $$$ we're making. What matters most for us is a>performance on the floor, and b>exposure on TV. It is a HUGE gamble leaving ESPN. It just is.

Also- you say about the regular season- those should mean more. I disagree 100%-when you are in a conference the size of the Big East. SOS matters in that case. I mean look at the conference schedule with Georgetown and Louisville this year. Georgetown had to play 2x Marquette, St Johns, Syracuse, and Cincy. Louisville had to play 2x Syracuse, Seton Hall, So Florida, and Notre Dame. Are those the same schedules? Not even close. Now, next year with 10 teams, yes, regular season championships will matter more.

I'm not conceding an inch to "the football programs".

Rutgers? USF? Cincinnati? Miami? All football programs and not a single regular season title or tournament championship among them.

16 of the last 18 tournament champs were football programs. True. Also true that 6 of those 16 were by a single dynasty program (UConn). And 3 of the last 8 were won by another dynasty type program (Louisville) that has only been in the conference for those 8 years. So, the majority of those titles (9/16) went to 2 of the top basketball programs in the history of the sport. I don't see how their success reflects on the rest of the football programs.

It's the same in the ACC where North Carolina & Duke dominate the conference. Although both of those schools have football programs, they are basketball-first schools.

If the perception is that the C7 are not quality programs, I say that's wrong. BC and Pitt each won 2 of those titles that you mentioned. I'm not sure what that proves that they've bypassed the basketball-only schools? Certainly not BC, which has been in decline for the last few years. Pitt has won 2 titles in 31 years in the conference and now they're something special? I don't think so. Especially when they've choked in the NCAA tournament time after time.

Villanova, Georgetown, and Marquette are all prominent programs without question. The perception of the new Big East will not be determined by the C7 alone; it will be determined by all 10 members. Add Butler & Xavier to those 3 just mentioned and now you have a core of 5 nationally prominent programs. Creighton is just a notch behind those 5 and Lavin is successfully rebuilding St. John's, a program on the raise. Providence is also starting to show some signs of life. Every conference has its bottom feeders, but when 8 of 10 are either nationally prominent or competitive, that's as good as or better than anyone. The perception of this group will be strong from the get go.

Frankly I doubt that anyone could even name the last 10 Big East champions, much less the last 16. So, I don't think it matters that much. Especially when 7 of those 18 years, a C7 school was in the title game. It's not like they've disappeared from view and are off everyone's radar scream. In other years of those 18 when they didn't get to the tournament finals, they were also reminding everyone they were still around by getting to the Final Four (Villanova '09, Georgetown '07, Marquette '03) or to the Elite 8 (Villanova '05, St. John's '99, Providence '97, Georgetown '96). In fact those runs in the tournament are probably more effective at raising a school's national profile because they occur when everyone's paying attention as opposed to the conference tournament when only conference fans are paying attention.

I agree that the new Big East needs to win games because everyone will be watching. And I don't doubt for a minute that they will. But if you're concerned about them making a big splash, you've created a strong argument for adding VCU when they expand to 12. Right now VCU is a nationally prominent program and everyone will see them as another top quality program in the conference.
(This post was last modified: 03-17-2013 02:14 AM by Melky Cabrera.)
03-17-2013 02:10 AM
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