Well, "maybe" we wasted all day arguing something for nothing....

A report in the New York Post Wednesday said Dayton, will join Xavier and Butler as additions to the seven next season and Creighton and Saint Louis would join in 2014. But Lenn Robbins who wrote the story then told our Doug Harris late Wednesday afternoon that he’d head Dayton would be the last team him.

He said the reference was to the 12th team in, not the 10th.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/con...um=twitter

(03-13-2013 04:51 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 09:24 AM)HoyaAnt Wrote:  I don't agree with some of Redman points, but I have to agree with him on the Murdoch point. Since he owns the NYPOST, it would make sense on making an accurate report. I must say, I am really not happy with Dayton joining the conference. It's bad enough we have Seton Hall and Depaul, now you bring in Dayton who will bring the same results as the aforementioned schools.

Others have pointed out that Dayton has superb "off the court" numbers (fans, attendance, tv value, etc). But it's not like they've been slackers on the court either.

They've had over 20 wins every year for the past 5 years, averaging 23.4 wins over that time. They've gone dancing 4 times in the last 13 years, which is more than St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall, or Depaul. They also won the NIT three years ago. What's more, they've been able to do all this without being able to roll out the Big East banner during recruiting.

Personally, I think that UD is a sleeping giant. They'll have the 2nd biggest endowment in the Big East, they're rapidly expanding their campus, and they have a fanbase that is every bit as large and loyal as a BCS-level football school. The only thing they've lacked is the national exposure to sell to recruits. The Big East will give that to them. I think they'll be at the top of the conference in no time.

Nice post. All good points. I have no objection to Dayton. They bring a lot of positives.

Now, why the need to kick sand in the face of our Big East brethren in the effort to help Dayton establish their bona fides?

You're wielding a 2-edged sword their with those 4 NCAA appearances. Only one win in those 4 tournaments. Seton Hall went to only 3 tournaments but at least they half 3 wins to show for their efforts.

And why 13 years? Why not 14? Equally arbitrary. If we go back 14 years, then St. John's also has 4 appearances. But their record includes an Elite 8. And while Dayton was AWOL from the tournament for almost all if the 1990's (1991-99), Providence also went to an Elite 8 (1997) just a couple of years before St. John's.

All of these programs have had their high points and their down years. Daytonhas cred regardless of what anyone else did.

(03-13-2013 06:57 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  Well, "maybe" we wasted all day arguing something for nothing....

A report in the New York Post Wednesday said Dayton, will join Xavier and Butler as additions to the seven next season and Creighton and Saint Louis would join in 2014. But Lenn Robbins who wrote the story then told our Doug Harris late Wednesday afternoon that he’d head Dayton would be the last team him.

He said the reference was to the 12th team in, not the 10th.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/con...um=twitter

Wow!

Speculation? Really, Lenn? You didn't write it that way.

(03-13-2013 06:57 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  Well, "maybe" we wasted all day arguing something for nothing....

A report in the New York Post Wednesday said Dayton, will join Xavier and Butler as additions to the seven next season and Creighton and Saint Louis would join in 2014. But Lenn Robbins who wrote the story then told our Doug Harris late Wednesday afternoon that he’d head Dayton would be the last team him.

He said the reference was to the 12th team in, not the 10th.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/blogs/con...um=twitter

FIgured as much.

By the way, horrible editing. I mean, seriously...c'mon. Though I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Its going to be those 5 only question is this gear or next.
I remember in 2003 when the "rumored" candidates were reported. The reports turned out to be accurate. Just as I suspect these reports will

(03-13-2013 07:05 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 04:51 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 09:24 AM)HoyaAnt Wrote:  I don't agree with some of Redman points, but I have to agree with him on the Murdoch point. Since he owns the NYPOST, it would make sense on making an accurate report. I must say, I am really not happy with Dayton joining the conference. It's bad enough we have Seton Hall and Depaul, now you bring in Dayton who will bring the same results as the aforementioned schools.

Others have pointed out that Dayton has superb "off the court" numbers (fans, attendance, tv value, etc). But it's not like they've been slackers on the court either.

They've had over 20 wins every year for the past 5 years, averaging 23.4 wins over that time. They've gone dancing 4 times in the last 13 years, which is more than St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall, or Depaul. They also won the NIT three years ago. What's more, they've been able to do all this without being able to roll out the Big East banner during recruiting.

Personally, I think that UD is a sleeping giant. They'll have the 2nd biggest endowment in the Big East, they're rapidly expanding their campus, and they have a fanbase that is every bit as large and loyal as a BCS-level football school. The only thing they've lacked is the national exposure to sell to recruits. The Big East will give that to them. I think they'll be at the top of the conference in no time.

Nice post. All good points. I have no objection to Dayton. They bring a lot of positives.

Now, why the need to kick sand in the face of our Big East brethren in the effort to help Dayton establish their bona fides?

You're wielding a 2-edged sword their with those 4 NCAA appearances. Only one win in those 4 tournaments. Seton Hall went to only 3 tournaments but at least they half 3 wins to show for their efforts.

And why 13 years? Why not 14? Equally arbitrary. If we go back 14 years, then St. John's also has 4 appearances. But their record includes an Elite 8. And while Dayton was AWOL from the tournament for almost all if the 1990's (1991-99), Providence also went to an Elite 8 (1997) just a couple of years before St. John's.

All of these programs have had their high points and their down years. Daytonhas cred regardless of what anyone else did.

Didn't mean to kick sand in their face. My bad if it looked that way. The point with UD's on-court performance is that they're a bubble team more often than not (11 of the last 15 years they've had over 20 wins). And I think that sometimes people forget that their programs have had down years too (I certainly don't forget UC's down years). If you want to judge other schools by their glory years in the 80s rather than their mediocre 90s and 00s, there's no logical reason to judge Dayton entirely by their halfway decent 00s and overlook that they took John Wooden and Kareem to the wire in the 1967 championship game. At least compare apples to apples, people.

As for why 13 years? Because it made my point better than talking about 14 years :) Duh.

It's not exactly hard to win 20 games with exempt tournaments and buy games in the OOC.

There's only one thing to say about Dayton's basketball program: it has one NCAA Tournament win in 20 years.

Those are the facts everything else is trying to rationalization.

Not to mention, prior to this year, the A10 lacked VCU and Butler. It was a fine conference but nothing that a program that is Big East worthy, should have an issue consistently making tournaments.

(03-13-2013 09:02 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  Its going to be those 5 only question is this gear or next.
I remember in 2003 when the "rumored" candidates were reported. The reports turned out to be accurate. Just as I suspect these reports will

To which of "these reports" do you refer? Creighton wasn't even considered a candidate when the early reports materialized. Then they were "adopted" by Marquette and are now considered member #10. Richmond was the darling of Georgetown and a shoe-in as #11 or 12. Now it is supposedly Dayton who will be taken in Richmond's place while SLU remains throughout as one of the last two entries.

How can "these reports" all be accurate when they tend to conflict with one another?

I'm beginning to wonder if the supposed "leakers" of all this "reliable" information aren't simply planting a bunch of unconfirmed reports out there to enjoy a few laughs when they see them in print by the likes of the NY Post, ESPN.com, etc.

And don't we all just "eat it up"?!

(03-13-2013 11:18 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 07:05 PM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 04:51 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 09:24 AM)HoyaAnt Wrote:  I don't agree with some of Redman points, but I have to agree with him on the Murdoch point. Since he owns the NYPOST, it would make sense on making an accurate report. I must say, I am really not happy with Dayton joining the conference. It's bad enough we have Seton Hall and Depaul, now you bring in Dayton who will bring the same results as the aforementioned schools.

Others have pointed out that Dayton has superb "off the court" numbers (fans, attendance, tv value, etc). But it's not like they've been slackers on the court either.

They've had over 20 wins every year for the past 5 years, averaging 23.4 wins over that time. They've gone dancing 4 times in the last 13 years, which is more than St. John's, Providence, Seton Hall, or Depaul. They also won the NIT three years ago. What's more, they've been able to do all this without being able to roll out the Big East banner during recruiting.

Personally, I think that UD is a sleeping giant. They'll have the 2nd biggest endowment in the Big East, they're rapidly expanding their campus, and they have a fanbase that is every bit as large and loyal as a BCS-level football school. The only thing they've lacked is the national exposure to sell to recruits. The Big East will give that to them. I think they'll be at the top of the conference in no time.

Nice post. All good points. I have no objection to Dayton. They bring a lot of positives.

Now, why the need to kick sand in the face of our Big East brethren in the effort to help Dayton establish their bona fides?

You're wielding a 2-edged sword their with those 4 NCAA appearances. Only one win in those 4 tournaments. Seton Hall went to only 3 tournaments but at least they half 3 wins to show for their efforts.

And why 13 years? Why not 14? Equally arbitrary. If we go back 14 years, then St. John's also has 4 appearances. But their record includes an Elite 8. And while Dayton was AWOL from the tournament for almost all if the 1990's (1991-99), Providence also went to an Elite 8 (1997) just a couple of years before St. John's.

All of these programs have had their high points and their down years. Daytonhas cred regardless of what anyone else did.

Didn't mean to kick sand in their face. My bad if it looked that way. The point with UD's on-court performance is that they're a bubble team more often than not (11 of the last 15 years they've had over 20 wins). And I think that sometimes people forget that their programs have had down years too (I certainly don't forget UC's down years). If you want to judge other schools by their glory years in the 80s rather than their mediocre 90s and 00s, there's no logical reason to judge Dayton entirely by their halfway decent 00s and overlook that they took John Wooden and Kareem to the wire in the 1967 championship game. At least compare apples to apples, people.

As for why 13 years? Because it made my point better than talking about 14 years :) Duh.

Thanks for the reply, Captain. I appreciate it. All fair points and duly noted. You make a great case for Dayton and the C7 should be happy to have them. They bring a lot. Your points about the down cycles of C7 schools are equally fair.

I get defensive about the C7 because they've been the targets if abuse by some on these boards. Although I'm a UConn guy, I apreciate the colleagues we've had for all these years. In the interests of full disclosure, I've sent 2 daughters to Providence so I have divided loyalties.

(03-14-2013 07:18 AM)Title Wrote:  It's not exactly hard to win 20 games with exempt tournaments and buy games in the OOC.

There's only one thing to say about Dayton's basketball program: it has one NCAA Tournament win in 20 years.

Those are the facts everything else is trying to rationalization.

Not to mention, prior to this year, the A10 lacked VCU and Butler. It was a fine conference but nothing that a program that is Big East worthy, should have an issue consistently making tournaments.

Their strongest qualification is that they average 12,000 in home attendance. That was 28th in the country last year. Among the C7, only Marquette was better. A fan base like that is very valuable.

They were relevant a generation ago. The generation that they were relevant are in the disposable income portion of their lives. Those people will now be replaced over coming years by people who lives through abject mediocrity.

It's more of a statement about demographics than anything. It's not permanent.

Regardless, that "point" is virtually pointless to anyone other than themselves.

(03-13-2013 09:24 AM)HoyaAnt Wrote:  I am really not happy with Dayton joining the conference. It's bad enough we have Seton Hall and Depaul, now you bring in Dayton who will bring the same results as the aforementioned schools.

I don't really have a dog in the fight here, but I think you are underestimating the value of teams like Seton Hall and DePaul. The very nature of playing in a conference means that some teams will end up at the top and some teams will end up at the bottom. In other words, every conference will have teams finishing last or next to last and if those teams improve, then someone else is going to have to take their place at the bottom of the pile.

That is where the true value of a school like DePaul is in my opinion. Even if they are finishing at the bottom of the league, they are still good for the conference because they give the league a strong bottom. First, look at the tradition DePaul brings to the conference. DePaul has the same number of final fours, more elite eights, more sweet sixteens, and more NCAA appearances than Butler. It has more final fours, elite eights, and sweet sixteens than either Creighton or Xavier. DePaul has been way down since it joined the Big East but that doesn't mean it was always or will always be terrible.

Second, look at DePaul's ability to still attract fans. The Blue Demons averaged 7,740 fans in 2012 (link) which was more than Butler, UCLA, and Gonzaga averaged. In fact, it was nearly equal to Baylor and Notre Dame, two programs with a LOT more success over the last 5 years than DePaul.

DePaul might not be generating tons of NCAA credits at present but they do give the Big East something it can market going forward. Every program from top to bottom has great basketball tradition. Every program from top to bottom packs the house for games. Every program from top to bottom lives and breathes basketball.

(03-14-2013 08:00 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 07:18 AM)Title Wrote:  It's not exactly hard to win 20 games with exempt tournaments and buy games in the OOC.

There's only one thing to say about Dayton's basketball program: it has one NCAA Tournament win in 20 years.

Those are the facts everything else is trying to rationalization.

Not to mention, prior to this year, the A10 lacked VCU and Butler. It was a fine conference but nothing that a program that is Big East worthy, should have an issue consistently making tournaments.

Their strongest qualification is that they average 12,000 in home attendance. That was 28th in the country last year. Among the C7, only Marquette was better. A fan base like that is very valuable.

This. Look, I don't LOVE Dayton, but I certainly don't get all the hate (though their fanbase is nauseating). Is there really a better program out there to grab? I know the east coast schools are annoyed b/c they want another east coast schools, but I don't really see better options.

The best east coast options are already the Big East. I mean, I guess there's Siena, Boston U, Davidson, Richmond, and St. Joe's. Only one of them plays in an arena bigger than 8,000, and its not like they sell it out. I wouldn't raise hell if any of them got in over Dayton, but let's stop pretending like our choices are really between Gonzaga, Duke and Dayton and we're stupidly choosing Dayton.

A rabid, hungry fanbase is what this league needs from the beginning. We need people to care.

(03-14-2013 09:41 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  Is there really a better program out there to grab?

Probably Richmond, but that's beside the point. You don't need to add anyone, ten is a perfectly viable number.

Expansion should be something done to add the worthy to make your conference stronger, not to simply get to a number.

(03-13-2013 05:57 PM)Know Nothing Wrote:  This. I think is hard for people outside of southwest Ohio to understand how large, dedicated, and enthusiastic the Dayton fan base is because of the lack of national exposure. They are rabid. I've seen the Flyer faithful take over Arenas even against big time opponents like Ohio State, Kentucky, Cincinnati, Xavier, and events like the Maui invitational. I've been convinced since day 1 that Dayton was going to be added to the Big East and that it was only a matter of when, not if.

Living in Louisville, I have seen it with my own eyes. When they played at Freedom Hall, they had several thousand in attendance, paying well over face to get tickets from our fans. Same at Rupp vs. UK. We played them in Cincy once too, and they outnumbered our fans, selling out US Bank Arena. That's why I defend them so much when people talk about them, because living not too far away, I see it myself.

(03-14-2013 09:29 AM)UofLgrad07 Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 09:24 AM)HoyaAnt Wrote:  I am really not happy with Dayton joining the conference. It's bad enough we have Seton Hall and Depaul, now you bring in Dayton who will bring the same results as the aforementioned schools.

I don't really have a dog in the fight here, but I think you are underestimating the value of teams like Seton Hall and DePaul. The very nature of playing in a conference means that some teams will end up at the top and some teams will end up at the bottom. In other words, every conference will have teams finishing last or next to last and if those teams improve, then someone else is going to have to take their place at the bottom of the pile.

Hey, stealing my argument LOL

But I agree with this. DePaul is one of the best "bottom dwellers" you can have in a conference. A last placed team that draws fans, is in a big market that cares about basketball, and still draws on TV. That is good.

Not to mention, DePaul is no different than Cincinnati. They both were good in CUSA, and got beat down when they joined tghe Big East during a down year. Cincy only made it back to the dance last year, and DePaul is still recovering. They will probably be better in the new Big East without so many teams beating down on them. It is HARD to get off the bottom in a 16 team conference. Same issue Seton Hall is having, and same issue St. Johns had, as they too only recently recovered, and even then, they are not all the way back.

Keep in mind, prior to joining the Big East, when DePaul was in CUSA, if you did a year to year comparison of their last four years in CUA, you would see they outdrew every other C7 team save for Marquette, Cincinnati, Xavier, West Virginia, Pitt, Saint Louis, and a host of Big Ten, ACC, and SEC teams at least two of those years, and in some cases all four. And even when they have been hopelessly down, they STILL outdraw many of the other Big East teams right now. If they start winning again, combined with their move downtown to the United Center, you will likely see their average back over 10,000 in a couple of years. Not too many others can do that.

(03-14-2013 10:13 AM)Title Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 09:41 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  Is there really a better program out there to grab?

Probably Richmond, but that's beside the point. You don't need to add anyone, ten is a perfectly viable number.

Expansion should be something done to add the worthy to make your conference stronger, not to simply get to a number.

I actually really like the SLU add. Wish it would be okay to just go to 11 and stop. But Dayton fits well...would've been nice if they were in a different state though to avoid the duplication.

(03-14-2013 09:41 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 08:00 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 07:18 AM)Title Wrote:  It's not exactly hard to win 20 games with exempt tournaments and buy games in the OOC.

There's only one thing to say about Dayton's basketball program: it has one NCAA Tournament win in 20 years.

Those are the facts everything else is trying to rationalization.

Not to mention, prior to this year, the A10 lacked VCU and Butler. It was a fine conference but nothing that a program that is Big East worthy, should have an issue consistently making tournaments.

Their strongest qualification is that they average 12,000 in home attendance. That was 28th in the country last year. Among the C7, only Marquette was better. A fan base like that is very valuable.

This. Look, I don't LOVE Dayton, but I certainly don't get all the hate (though their fanbase is nauseating). Is there really a better program out there to grab? I know the east coast schools are annoyed b/c they want another east coast schools, but I don't really see better options.

The best east coast options are already the Big East. I mean, I guess there's Siena, Boston U, Davidson, Richmond, and St. Joe's. Only one of them plays in an arena bigger than 8,000, and its not like they sell it out. I wouldn't raise hell if any of them got in over Dayton, but let's stop pretending like our choices are really between Gonzaga, Duke and Dayton and we're stupidly choosing Dayton.

A rabid, hungry fanbase is what this league needs from the beginning. We need people to care.

If youre referring to the fanbase being UDPride please dont. They have went so far as to ban multiple of us for being realistic and stating that the team is not world beaters and on a couple of year decline (this was during Gregory's last season). Now that we were proven right we cannot rejoin since we were given lifetime bans and registration was locked. UDPride is the 1% of UD fans. Even we dont like them

(03-14-2013 10:38 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 09:29 AM)UofLgrad07 Wrote:  

(03-13-2013 09:24 AM)HoyaAnt Wrote:  I am really not happy with Dayton joining the conference. It's bad enough we have Seton Hall and Depaul, now you bring in Dayton who will bring the same results as the aforementioned schools.

I don't really have a dog in the fight here, but I think you are underestimating the value of teams like Seton Hall and DePaul. The very nature of playing in a conference means that some teams will end up at the top and some teams will end up at the bottom. In other words, every conference will have teams finishing last or next to last and if those teams improve, then someone else is going to have to take their place at the bottom of the pile.

Hey, stealing my argument LOL

But I agree with this. DePaul is one of the best "bottom dwellers" you can have in a conference. A last placed team that draws fans, is in a big market that cares about basketball, and still draws on TV. That is good.

Not to mention, DePaul is no different than Cincinnati. They both were good in CUSA, and got beat down when they joined tghe Big East during a down year. Cincy only made it back to the dance last year, and DePaul is still recovering. They will probably be better in the new Big East without so many teams beating down on them. It is HARD to get off the bottom in a 16 team conference. Same issue Seton Hall is having, and same issue St. Johns had, as they too only recently recovered, and even then, they are not all the way back.

Keep in mind, prior to joining the Big East, when DePaul was in CUSA, if you did a year to year comparison of their last four years in CUA, you would see they outdrew every other C7 team save for Marquette, Cincinnati, Xavier, West Virginia, Pitt, Saint Louis, and a host of Big Ten, ACC, and SEC teams at least two of those years, and in some cases all four. And even when they have been hopelessly down, they STILL outdraw many of the other Big East teams right now. If they start winning again, combined with their move downtown to the United Center, you will likely see their average back over 10,000 in a couple of years. Not too many others can do that.

If DePaul and STJ got going again, look out. Those are two of the biggest Catholic universities in the nation (both over 20,000, DePaul is the biggest with around 26,000).

That said, DePaul needs to fix their arena issue. Hopefully they build the new one or take up the United Center on free rent. All-State arena just sucks for their fan base.

(03-14-2013 11:04 AM)Roader Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 09:41 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 08:00 AM)Melky Cabrera Wrote:  

(03-14-2013 07:18 AM)Title Wrote:  It's not exactly hard to win 20 games with exempt tournaments and buy games in the OOC.

There's only one thing to say about Dayton's basketball program: it has one NCAA Tournament win in 20 years.

Those are the facts everything else is trying to rationalization.

Not to mention, prior to this year, the A10 lacked VCU and Butler. It was a fine conference but nothing that a program that is Big East worthy, should have an issue consistently making tournaments.

Their strongest qualification is that they average 12,000 in home attendance. That was 28th in the country last year. Among the C7, only Marquette was better. A fan base like that is very valuable.

This. Look, I don't LOVE Dayton, but I certainly don't get all the hate (though their fanbase is nauseating). Is there really a better program out there to grab? I know the east coast schools are annoyed b/c they want another east coast schools, but I don't really see better options.

The best east coast options are already the Big East. I mean, I guess there's Siena, Boston U, Davidson, Richmond, and St. Joe's. Only one of them plays in an arena bigger than 8,000, and its not like they sell it out. I wouldn't raise hell if any of them got in over Dayton, but let's stop pretending like our choices are really between Gonzaga, Duke and Dayton and we're stupidly choosing Dayton.

A rabid, hungry fanbase is what this league needs from the beginning. We need people to care.

If youre referring to the fanbase being UDPride please dont. They have went so far as to ban multiple of us for being realistic and stating that the team is not world beaters and on a couple of year decline (this was during Gregory's last season). Now that we were proven right we cannot rejoin since we were given lifetime bans and registration was locked. UDPride is the 1% of UD fans. Even we dont like them

You need another message board. Is there one?

Georgetown does the same thing, blocks anyone w/out a Georgetown email. Which is lame.