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Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
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Lolly Popp Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
The A-10 is not going to add any schools that throw off its geographic balance or don't place basketball first and foremost. Now that the Big East says Butler, Dayton, and Xavier will be joining next season, followed by Creighton and St. Louis in 2014-15, the A-10 can pull out of the Midwest.

LIKELY A-10 IN 2014-15
UMass (or Northeastern) \ Rhode Island
Fordham \ Hofstra (or Siena)
St. Bonaventure \ Duquesne
St. Joseph's \ LaSalle
George Washington \ George Mason
Richmond \ VCU

I see Northeastern as a geographic replacement for UMass if the Minutemen ever move to a football league. Hofstra would get the nod over Siena because the A-10 will want a school closer to its tournament at the Barclays Center and the Long Island market is better than the Albany market.
03-13-2013 11:45 AM
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LastMinuteman Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
Hofstra is a fiasco right now. If the A10 wants to be on Long Island, Stony Brook is at least a top 100 RPI basketball team, and plays FCS football in a stadium no bigger than Richmond's. That shouldn't be an impediment. If they ever did get ambitious in football, that might be a good thing. By that time, a new VCU or Butler may emerge in mid-major basketball. There's absolutely nobody out there like that right now, which is why multiple 300 rpi teams have ended up on the short list. Passing up a top 100 team that might leave someday for football reasons to take a team that's definitely in the bottom 50 is lunacy.
03-13-2013 11:48 AM
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LostInSpace Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
I agree. Hofstra isn't going to get invited beacuse they add nothing other than a Fordham-like anchor to the A10's RPI. Hofstra doesn't get people to show up for games on campus. They aren't going to magically start attending games in Brooklyn. I imagine they'll be considered for about a minute or so after which the A10 will move on to other candidates and return to ignoring Hofstra.

Edited to add: Stony Brook has never made the NCAA tournament and lost in the first round in both of their NIT appearances. Football issues aside, it's hard to see them being invited when they've achieved nothing of consequence in their history.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 01:33 PM by LostInSpace.)
03-13-2013 12:09 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
(03-13-2013 09:31 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Ive got nothing against Ohio, but the A10 is not going to add FBS schools. The conference has been forced to constantly reinvent itself because of FBS realignment. It's in that position again for ****'s sake. Temple, thirty-one years ago, before FBS football began all of its constant shifting is the only FBS member the A10 has ever added to replace a deaprting member. The A10 wants abolutely nothing to do with FBS football because it will only continue to harm the conference. I understand what's in it for Ohio, because the MAC has devolved into a one bid conference. What you don't want to accept is that the A10 members know their own history and they haven't and aren't going to align themselves with FBS schools in the future. UMass being the lone exception since they are a founding member of the conference and moved to FBS while a member.

It doesn't matter whether Ohio wants to join the A10. They don't fit the profile that the A10 has repeatedly demonstrated they prefer regardless of whether Ohio is good or has a large arena. BU which more closely fits the A10's desired profile tried for a couple of decades to get into the A10 and ultimately gave up and joined the Patriot. Hofstra which also now fits the desired profile has been lobbying the A10 for years and still hasn't been invited.

In the past 30 years, the A10 has added one member, Richmond, that plays 63 scholarship football and is also a school that clearly never had any intention of moving to FBS. They've added eight that either played non-scholarship football or don't play football at all. This isn't complicated. They've demonstrated what they want and it's to be aligned with schools that don't play scholarship football. It's the most sensible strategy for the A10 because they can be certain that basketball will be the largest recipient of AD funding. The fact that it may be incovenient for Ohio, UD or any other school to be stuck in a crappy basketball conference is irrelevant. If they want to play full scholarship FCS or FBS football it's their issue to resolve where to place their olympic sports, not the A10's.


Richmond might not have ambitions of moving up in football but by starting lacrosse they may be essentially doing the same thing as far as scholarships go. I don't know if that will affect their spending in basketball or football, or if they are an outlier because of this. Question for fans of A10 schools - does anyone else care about lacrosse?
03-13-2013 12:40 PM
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Minutemen429 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
(03-13-2013 12:40 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  
(03-13-2013 09:31 AM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Ive got nothing against Ohio, but the A10 is not going to add FBS schools. The conference has been forced to constantly reinvent itself because of FBS realignment. It's in that position again for ****'s sake. Temple, thirty-one years ago, before FBS football began all of its constant shifting is the only FBS member the A10 has ever added to replace a deaprting member. The A10 wants abolutely nothing to do with FBS football because it will only continue to harm the conference. I understand what's in it for Ohio, because the MAC has devolved into a one bid conference. What you don't want to accept is that the A10 members know their own history and they haven't and aren't going to align themselves with FBS schools in the future. UMass being the lone exception since they are a founding member of the conference and moved to FBS while a member.

It doesn't matter whether Ohio wants to join the A10. They don't fit the profile that the A10 has repeatedly demonstrated they prefer regardless of whether Ohio is good or has a large arena. BU which more closely fits the A10's desired profile tried for a couple of decades to get into the A10 and ultimately gave up and joined the Patriot. Hofstra which also now fits the desired profile has been lobbying the A10 for years and still hasn't been invited.

In the past 30 years, the A10 has added one member, Richmond, that plays 63 scholarship football and is also a school that clearly never had any intention of moving to FBS. They've added eight that either played non-scholarship football or don't play football at all. This isn't complicated. They've demonstrated what they want and it's to be aligned with schools that don't play scholarship football. It's the most sensible strategy for the A10 because they can be certain that basketball will be the largest recipient of AD funding. The fact that it may be incovenient for Ohio, UD or any other school to be stuck in a crappy basketball conference is irrelevant. If they want to play full scholarship FCS or FBS football it's their issue to resolve where to place their olympic sports, not the A10's.


Richmond might not have ambitions of moving up in football but by starting lacrosse they may be essentially doing the same thing as far as scholarships go. I don't know if that will affect their spending in basketball or football, or if they are an outlier because of this. Question for fans of A10 schools - does anyone else care about lacrosse?

UMass and St. Joe's play lacrosse in the CAA.
03-13-2013 12:50 PM
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bostonspider Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
Richmond has a 150 Million Dollar Athletic Endowment, and is right now starting the first phase of a 25 Million dollar refurbishment of their basketball arena. They currently spend up at the top of the A10, with Xavier, Dayton and VCU when it comes to basketball. Lacrosse has been paid for by alumni.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 12:51 PM by bostonspider.)
03-13-2013 12:51 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
Richmond cut men's soccer and track & field but kept baseball. interesting.
03-13-2013 01:35 PM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
(03-13-2013 01:35 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Richmond cut men's soccer and track & field but kept baseball. interesting.

That move pissed off some folks, including a big time donor who promptly resigned from the UR board of trustees.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 01:41 PM by VA49er.)
03-13-2013 01:41 PM
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bearcat29 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
(03-12-2013 01:28 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 09:28 PM)Poliicious Wrote:  Not only will VCU, Butler, Xavier & Dayton leave the A10; UMASS will get a Dirty Dozen invite in at least one of the major sports. If the A10 wants to expand west, simply merge with the Horizon

Wright st, YSU & Cleveland St give the A10 a presence in Ohio that it losses with Dayton & Xavier, Valpo makes up the Butler loss, UIC & loyola give a chicago presence and milwaukee and green bay in wisky. If travel is an issue, split by e & w divisions

The A10 could go sort of West with Ohio capturing a piece of the state market without needing to add 3 additional schools. Plus it doesn't hurt that Ohio is located more easterly near the WV and PA borders.

Please consider academics here. Youngstown State is about as marginal as you can get for a public university and Cleveland St/Wright St are second tier at best.

As a Wright State alum, I can't disagree. The Horizon is where WSU belongs. While they have decent BB, they would not bring many eye balls (or the market) to a TV deal.
03-13-2013 01:47 PM
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jdgaucho Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
(03-13-2013 01:41 PM)VA49er Wrote:  
(03-13-2013 01:35 PM)jdgaucho Wrote:  Richmond cut men's soccer and track & field but kept baseball. interesting.

That move pissed off some folks, including a big time donor who promptly resigned from the UR board of trustees.

I'm pleasantly surprised that some people were pissed off about dropping those sports. I don't know anything about Richmond's finances but I feel like they could have made it all work. They talked about how they wanted to be competitive in lacrosse (60-some teams vs 205 or so for men's soccer). I understand the desire to remain in Title IX compliance, but then why keep baseball since it costs much more to field a team and maintain the facilities? Certainly not for competitive purposes as there's about 300 teams in D1 baseball. It's interesting to say the least.


Towson also plays lacrosse and they, like UR, cut men's soccer. Unlike UR however, Towson cut baseball too.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 02:09 PM by jdgaucho.)
03-13-2013 02:07 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
(03-13-2013 12:00 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(03-12-2013 11:16 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(03-10-2013 10:57 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  We've talked at some length about the A10 and what they should be trying to do with reloading after basketball schools head to the Big East.

If we assume that it will in fact be Xavier, Butler, Dayton and St. Louis to the Big East that will effectively gut the western wing of the conference. What is also troubling for the A10 is that UMass is interviewing for a spot in the A12.

Here is an idea: The A10 decides to go with George Mason as we all expect they'll be selected. GMU makes too much sense as a huge 31,000 student school right in GW's back yard. After that the A10 adds Delaware (good academic school) and here is the surprise, Buffalo & Ohio from the MAC. The idea would be that Delaware would also join the MAC FB only and so the MAC would have an Eastern wing of Delaware, Buffalo, UMass and Ohio all playing in the conference FB only.

Buffalo has ambitions to grow to 40,000 students and in a quality east coast basketball conference like the A10 could get a lot of alumni out of the woodwork with St. Bonaventure, UMass and URI on the schedule. They would support the A10 tournament at the Barclay Center well in NYC. The program has shown some success in the MAC and would likely be middle of the pack in tha A10.

Ohio outdraws the next MAC school in basketball by a 2 to 1 margin and has made recent runs in the NCAA tournament. The school can put 12,000 in the house for conference big games and would look great on TV. They would bring the Columbus and WV markets to the A10. A fish that is big enough to be worth reeling in.

Ohio, Buffalo, UMass and Delaware then if accepted to the A12 down the road can do so FB only while having a safe landing spot in the A10 for other sports. For example, UConn and Cincinnati are picked up by the A10 then Ohio and UMass could join the A12 FB only.

To some of the ideas of the A10 adding Valpo & Loyola from the Horizon or Illinois St and Indiana St from the MVC......goofy. Why should the A10 go that far west for members that don't carry (or even have) their own market. Xavier & Dayton were big time exceptions. Indiana St should not be looked at the same way.

I think I'm one of the very few A-10ers in here.

First, Umass can interview, but the A-12 is a FOOTBALL conference. They have football at UMass, but taking them would involve quite an investment by the A-12. Could happen, but I'm not so sure that's on the table.

Second, the A-10 is not interested in adding teams that play football. PERIOD. Buffalo plays football.

The candidates for A-10 expansion are as follows

1) George Mason - in footprint, looking to leave, good basketball, no football

2) Hofstra - see above. The team we SHOULD have taken instead of Fordham

3) Drexel
4) BU or Northeastern
5) Sienna

If Davidson were interested, we might be willing to talk. The A-10, even after losing Butler, STL, Dayton, Charlotte, Xavier, and Temple still has 10 teams. So adding GMU and Hostra would do the following

A-10 South - VCU, GMU, GWU, Richmond, LaSalle, Duquesne
A-10 North - URI, UMass, Hofstra, Fordham, St Bona, St Joes

If we want 14, we add a Boston school and Drexel. Both of those get placed in the North and St Joes gets shifted to the South.

Either way, that's still a 2-3 bid league most years. Not a bad landing place.

Tom, Hofstra over Stony Brook?? Curious as to why.

I would take GMU and Stony Brook assuming Butler, Xavier, Dayton, St. Louis leave and Richmond and VCU stay.

VCU, Richmond, GMU, GW, La Salle, St. Joe's
Fordham, Stony Brook, UMass, URI, St. Bony, Duquense

South Division is great for travel and travel partners make cross division travel cake. North Division gives you two teams in NYC, 2 teams in NE, Pittsburgh, and St. Bony. If Umass leaves then you take Northeastern to keep the Boston/Massachusetts presence.

Stony Brook plays football. We're not kicking out our existing football teams, but we don't want to ADD more potential future problems.
03-13-2013 09:39 PM
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HP-TBDPITL Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
The A-10 has a football problem and now a Big East problem....If I were the A-10 I'd merge with the CAA and then sponsor a FCS football conference, of which Richmond and Villanova would be a part of...so essentially double up the A-10 to be the A-20... Split up into North and South divisions and give it a more Atlantic focus than what it became with St Louis & Dayton....could look like this....

South
College of Charleston
UNCW
William & Mary
VCU
Richmond
James Madison
George Mason
George Washington
Towson
Delaware

North
Duquesne
St Bonaventure
LaSalle
Drexel
St Joe's
Hofstra
Fordham
Rhode Island
Northeastern
UMass

If UMass left, it could add Davidson or some other all sports member and have 10 football schools....So A-10 North, A-10 South and A-10 football....would be a big market league.
(This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 11:12 PM by HP-TBDPITL.)
03-13-2013 10:19 PM
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Lolly Popp Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
Hofstra is struggling in basketball right now, but they have been very good in the past, and there is no reason to think they can never get back to that level in the future. Why do some people act like this season's record will be the permanent record for certain programs? Siena also sucked this year and, for that matter, so did St. Peter's. It doesn't mean the A-10 should not double up in the New York City metro area. Having two teams in New England, two near NYC, two near I-79/I-90, two in Philadelphia, two in Washington, and two in Richmond could be a great model for the A-10.
03-14-2013 12:55 PM
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LostInSpace Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
(03-14-2013 12:55 PM)Lolly Popp Wrote:  Hofstra is struggling in basketball right now, but they have been very good in the past, and there is no reason to think they can never get back to that level in the future. Why do some people act like this season's record will be the permanent record for certain programs? Siena also sucked this year and, for that matter, so did St. Peter's. It doesn't mean the A-10 should not double up in the New York City metro area. Having two teams in New England, two near NYC, two near I-79/I-90, two in Philadelphia, two in Washington, and two in Richmond could be a great model for the A-10.

Hofstra is an average team historically. The Wright and Pecora years are an the exception rather than the rule. They have made 4 NCAA appearances all-time and 2 appearances (1 in Wright's last year and the other in Pecora's first) in the past 30 years. They have never won a game in the NCAA tournament. Siena has been in the NCAA tournament 6 times (under 4 coaches) in the past 15 years. The fact that Hofstra is in the NYC metro does nothing to increase awareness of the A10 because there is typically very little interest in their basketball program.

Siena, though in a smaller market, actually commands attention. Their average attendance this year, in a third consecutive losing season was 1,200 more than the capacity of Hofstra's (mostly empty) arena. As they just did with Bounaguro, they don't hesitate to get rid of a coach who is failing.

Hofstra has wanted to join the A10 for a long time and the the A10 has wisely not reciprocated Hofstra's interest. The only doubling down the A10 would be doing by adding Hofstra would be in having a second NYC area team that doesn't earn NCAA units and is ignored by the public. The A10 has Fordham. They're well-covered already in the "teams from the NYC area that add no revenue and generate no interest" department. The bottom line is that there are no truly good candidates available, but there are better options out there than Hofstra, Siena being one of them.
(This post was last modified: 03-14-2013 01:58 PM by LostInSpace.)
03-14-2013 01:50 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Atlantic 10 Expansion: New Perspective
(03-13-2013 10:19 PM)HP-TBDPITL Wrote:  The A-10 has a football problem and now a Big East problem....If I were the A-10 I'd merge with the CAA and then sponsor a FCS football conference, of which Richmond and Villanova would be a part of...so essentially double up the A-10 to be the A-20... Split up into North and South divisions and give it a more Atlantic focus than what it became with St Louis & Dayton....could look like this....

South
College of Charleston
UNCW
William & Mary
VCU
Richmond
James Madison
George Mason
George Washington
Towson
Delaware

North
Duquesne
St Bonaventure
LaSalle
Drexel
St Joe's
Hofstra
Fordham
Rhode Island
Northeastern
UMass

If UMass left, it could add Davidson or some other all sports member and have 10 football schools....So A-10 North, A-10 South and A-10 football....would be a big market league.

No. No. A thousand times no. We wen't down that route before. We were lucky when the CAA "stole" our football league from us. How did it work for them.
03-15-2013 01:47 PM
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