(03-07-2013 02:25 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:16 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Yikes, didn't mean that - talking more about GMU. But in DC you see SOOOOOO much more JMU than ever VCU. Hell, I've never seen more than 1 or 2 people wear VCU anything. JMU has interns, fans and students all over here. It sure seems like they are closer.

You're cute though. GMU has accomplished just as much as you in athletics and you act soo above them. And my major point was not that they have better athletic programs currently (ya know, reading comprehension), but that they can draw larger fan attention and support.

The truth is, even if you dont want to believe it, no one thinks is anything other than a secondary public school in its own state.

Blah blah blah. Who ever knows what you're trying to say? You're not concise, you can't spell, your thoughts are disorganized, etc... More importantly, why the hard on for constantly popping in to make erroneous claims about easily verifiable facts that can be cleared up with two seconds of Googling? Your interruptions are annoying and valueless.

Are you dyslexic? What did I misspell? Im sorry you have terrible reading comprehnsion and resort to insults when you are frustrated. Stop calling me a liar and actually say something useful. VCU is simply not a major player in its own state. That simple enough for ya?

(03-07-2013 02:33 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  ODU and JMU have FB which helps jump BBall schools. Look at most of our mirror schools in the B1G. If it wasn;t for the pigskin a lot of those would be closer than they are, BUT you need to take the whole athletic dept.

Im not familiar with VA so I have no idea how it goes after UVA and VT.

Yup. I'm kind of glad VCU doesn't have/likely never will start football, but it would have gotten us a look for some of these other conferences. JMU is never going FBS, so they're not really getting much out of having pigskin.

ODU, on the other hand, if they can pull it off, could be a candidate for the Old Big East, and that could really elevate their program if they make the right hires in replacing Blaine Taylor (this season was their worst year in 37 years of ODU basketball). There's a ton of good hoop talent in the 757, and it's a good media market with no real sports for ODU to compete with.

(03-07-2013 02:33 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say JMU SHOULD be way ahead of VCU, but realsitically they aren't. Haven't been to tourney in nearly 20 years and had more years in the 300's in RPI in that period than better than 100. I think in the general DC area I know a lot of folks go to JMU- but doesn't really translate in athletics for whatever reason.

GMU if you take away their final four run has all of 1 NCAA win. They outside that year are a complete afterthought here in DC.

You failed to bring up the 1 that eventually will beat VCU and that's ODU. They have 11 NCAA spots, just like VCU. I know myself(and a LOT of folks) think they are primed for success in the near future.

ODU and JMU have FB which helps jump BBall schools. Look at most of our mirror schools in the B1G. If it wasn;t for the pigskin a lot of those would be closer than they are, BUT you need to take the whole athletic dept.

Im not familiar with VA so I have no idea how it goes after UVA and VT.

FCS football- not really so much. ODU to me is the major threat to VCU because they have FBS now and frankly I'd be shocked if they don't blow up as a program more than if they do. Also they have a decent history in basketball(both Men's and women's). Only thing really seperating basketball VCU to ODU is the final 4 run.

(03-07-2013 02:33 PM)thegalen Wrote:  And just for the record, the only reason there's more JMU gear floating around DC is they have football, and football is the most popular sport in America. This is a mechanical effect, not a showing of which school has more/better fans. The Dukes averaged 538 students per game in 2010-2011 (a 21 win season).

Totals:
2003-04: 3,697
2004-05: 3,223
2005-06: 3,819 (5-23 aka “rock bottom”)
2006-07: 3,303
2007-08: 3,632
2008-09: 3,603
2009-10: 3,732
2010-11: 3,721 (21-12)
2011-12: 3,427

But that's the point. They have football and therefore have better potential to attract more fans. Never said they have a better bball program. I'm thinking longer term. A lot can change in 15-20yrs. He'll, that's why I think VCU will probably look into football. No reason they shouldn't get better support than JMU if they do.

(03-07-2013 02:35 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:25 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:16 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Yikes, didn't mean that - talking more about GMU. But in DC you see SOOOOOO much more JMU than ever VCU. Hell, I've never seen more than 1 or 2 people wear VCU anything. JMU has interns, fans and students all over here. It sure seems like they are closer.

You're cute though. GMU has accomplished just as much as you in athletics and you act soo above them. And my major point was not that they have better athletic programs currently (ya know, reading comprehension), but that they can draw larger fan attention and support.

The truth is, even if you dont want to believe it, no one thinks is anything other than a secondary public school in its own state.

Blah blah blah. Who ever knows what you're trying to say? You're not concise, you can't spell, your thoughts are disorganized, etc... More importantly, why the hard on for constantly popping in to make erroneous claims about easily verifiable facts that can be cleared up with two seconds of Googling? Your interruptions are annoying and valueless.

Are you dyslexic? What did I misspell? Im sorry you have terrible reading comprehnsion and resort to insults when you are frustrated. Stop calling me a liar and actually say something useful. VCU is simply not a major player in its own state. That simple enough for ya?

It's pretty evident that you have no idea regarding the state of basketball in Virginia if you think VCU is not a major player. I'm also sure Tony Bennett at UVa would disagree with you regarding VCU. But then again, I'm sure you probably know more about college basketball in Virgina than UVa's head coach. One more thing. If VCU is as non-relevant as you claim we are, then explain why Craig Littlepage UVa's athletic director) shows up for a VCU home game last week with his wife.

(03-07-2013 02:47 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:33 PM)thegalen Wrote:  And just for the record, the only reason there's more JMU gear floating around DC is they have football, and football is the most popular sport in America. This is a mechanical effect, not a showing of which school has more/better fans. The Dukes averaged 538 students per game in 2010-2011 (a 21 win season).

Totals:
2003-04: 3,697
2004-05: 3,223
2005-06: 3,819 (5-23 aka “rock bottom”)
2006-07: 3,303
2007-08: 3,632
2008-09: 3,603
2009-10: 3,732
2010-11: 3,721 (21-12)
2011-12: 3,427

But that's the point. They have football and therefore have better potential to attract more fans. Never said they have a better bball program. I'm thinking longer term. A lot can change in 15-20yrs. He'll, that's why I think VCU will probably look into football. No reason they shouldn't get better support than JMU if they do.

I can't believe you are carrying the torch for football schools in Virginia being superior. So where does that logic leave all of the C7 schools, which also do not have football? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

(03-07-2013 02:41 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:33 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say JMU SHOULD be way ahead of VCU, but realsitically they aren't. Haven't been to tourney in nearly 20 years and had more years in the 300's in RPI in that period than better than 100. I think in the general DC area I know a lot of folks go to JMU- but doesn't really translate in athletics for whatever reason.

GMU if you take away their final four run has all of 1 NCAA win. They outside that year are a complete afterthought here in DC.

You failed to bring up the 1 that eventually will beat VCU and that's ODU. They have 11 NCAA spots, just like VCU. I know myself(and a LOT of folks) think they are primed for success in the near future.

ODU and JMU have FB which helps jump BBall schools. Look at most of our mirror schools in the B1G. If it wasn;t for the pigskin a lot of those would be closer than they are, BUT you need to take the whole athletic dept.

Im not familiar with VA so I have no idea how it goes after UVA and VT.

FCS football- not really so much. ODU to me is the major threat to VCU because they have FBS now and frankly I'd be shocked if they don't blow up as a program more than if they do. Also they have a decent history in basketball(both Men's and women's). Only thing really seperating basketball VCU to ODU is the final 4 run.

Have you seen ODU's basketball program lately? It's a train wreck. ODU fans are focusing way more on football right now than basketball. And look at the conference ODU is joining. It's going to be horrible in football and even worse in basketball. If anything, VCU is the major threat to ODU regarding basketball, not the reverse like you seem to think.

(03-07-2013 03:20 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:40 PM)BigBCherney Wrote:  All the more reason that recent on court basketball success shouldn't be the top reason a school (ala VCU) should get an invite. They are building a new league and there are much more factors in play for the leage to be successful in the decades to come. I would think any team with an invite will instantly have a better program.

Again, let's stop acting like VCU has only been successful since 2011. It isn't true, but it constantly gets repeated. As I've posted before, they are arguably more successful than any other non-ock candidate in the last 30ish years even WITHOUT their Final Four run. More appearances, more wins than everyone but Richmond (and again, more wins than Richmond counting the Final Four).

It doesn't matter is it's been recent success or past success. There is more to building a new league than just success on the court.

(03-07-2013 03:54 PM)BigBCherney Wrote:  It doesn't matter is it's been recent success or past success. There is more to building a new league than just success on the court.

Exactly, and that is why the teams that should join are:

Siena, Holy Cross, Dayton, Detroit, and SLU.

No, that's not right. I wonder what separates Siena, Holy Cross, and Detroit from Xavier, Butler, and Gonzaga? On court performance, that's what.

(03-07-2013 03:55 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 03:54 PM)BigBCherney Wrote:  It doesn't matter is it's been recent success or past success. There is more to building a new league than just success on the court.

Exactly, and that is why the teams that should join are:

Siena, Holy Cross, Dayton, Detroit, and SLU.

No, that's not right. I wonder what separates Siena, Holy Cross, and Detroit from Xavier, Butler, and Gonzaga? On court performance, that's what.

Wow, what a stupid response. Siena vs. SLU? Media markets doesn't separate them?

There are lots of factors that needs to be taken into account when creating a new league. Markets, fan support, similar like-minded schools, success. The VCU crowd is only focusing on success.

(03-07-2013 03:51 PM)Wolfpack Ram Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:41 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:33 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 02:27 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I'd say JMU SHOULD be way ahead of VCU, but realsitically they aren't. Haven't been to tourney in nearly 20 years and had more years in the 300's in RPI in that period than better than 100. I think in the general DC area I know a lot of folks go to JMU- but doesn't really translate in athletics for whatever reason.

GMU if you take away their final four run has all of 1 NCAA win. They outside that year are a complete afterthought here in DC.

You failed to bring up the 1 that eventually will beat VCU and that's ODU. They have 11 NCAA spots, just like VCU. I know myself(and a LOT of folks) think they are primed for success in the near future.

ODU and JMU have FB which helps jump BBall schools. Look at most of our mirror schools in the B1G. If it wasn;t for the pigskin a lot of those would be closer than they are, BUT you need to take the whole athletic dept.

Im not familiar with VA so I have no idea how it goes after UVA and VT.

FCS football- not really so much. ODU to me is the major threat to VCU because they have FBS now and frankly I'd be shocked if they don't blow up as a program more than if they do. Also they have a decent history in basketball(both Men's and women's). Only thing really seperating basketball VCU to ODU is the final 4 run.

Have you seen ODU's basketball program lately? It's a train wreck. ODU fans are focusing way more on football right now than basketball. And look at the conference ODU is joining. It's going to be horrible in football and even worse in basketball. If anything, VCU is the major threat to ODU regarding basketball, not the reverse like you seem to think.

You are focusing way too much to 1 year. Also sure Memphis is gone, but look at 2 of the adds. Middle Tennessee, La Tech(both of whom should make NCAA tourney this year and could win a game or two). If anything, CUSA could be deeper than it has been, which helps. ODU had made postseason 8 straight years before this.

(03-07-2013 03:53 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 03:39 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  "Again, let's stop acting like VCU has only been successful since 2011. It isn't true, but it constantly gets repeated. As I've posted before, they are arguably more successful than any other non-ock candidate in the last 30ish years even WITHOUT their Final Four run. More appearances, more wins than everyone but Richmond (and again, more wins than Richmond counting the Final Four)."

YOU took out the NCAA run out and without that you must accept that VCU was winning against sub-par teams. Their SOS over that time is above 100. That doesn't mean you were more successful because you beating weaker competition than the other candidates.

OK, you are being dense. Here are the teams VCU played in the tournament:

1980: #5 Iowa L 86-72
1981: #12 Long Island W 85-69
1981: #4 Tennessee L 58-56 OT
1983: #12 La Salle W 76-67
1983: #4 Georgia L 56-54
1984: #11 Northeastern W 70-69
1984: #3 Syracuse L 78-63
1985: #15 Marshall W 81-65
1985: #7 Alabama L 63-59
1996: #5 Mississippi St. L 58-51
2004: #4 Wake Forest L 79-78
2007: #6 Duke W 79-77
2007: #3 Pittsburgh L 84-79 OT
2009: #6 UCLA L 65-64
2012: #5 Wichita State W 62-59
2012: #4 Indiana L 63-61

Again, this is WITHOUT the Final Four run, IN the tournament. 16 games, in 32 years, with 5 wins. A bid every 3 years, a win every 6. That isn't incredible, like Xavier or Gonzaga, but it is consistent success on a higher scale than the other teams. And you can't act like they never played anyone, because the majority of those teams are power conference teams.

Again, let's stop making this misconception. That's all I ask. People continue to act like what I just posted never happened, and VCU's entire history is summed up in one coach going to one long run in the tournament. They have appearances under 5 different coaches and wins under three. It isn't about where they came from, but about what they did in the tournament.

Id love for UD to have this success but if were going to over analyze everything lets look at the teams they beat, none of them are power teams whether they come from a power conference or not (exception being Duke). Then again 2 wins in over 20 years is not that great either. Add in their FF run and yes, they are more successful than a majority of NCAA teams

1981: #12 Long Island W 85-69
1983: #12 La Salle W 76-67
1984: #11 Northeastern W 70-69
1985: #15 Marshall W 81-65
2007: #6 Duke W 79-77
2012: #5 Wichita State W 62-59

(03-07-2013 01:11 PM)Wolfpack Ram Wrote:  If the reason VCU is excluded is because we are a public school, then that's fine. But don't bash VCU's basketball history/success. VCU is clearly an upgrade to the new conference compared to Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence and DePaul.

Whoa there, slow down, Sparky. VCU has been pretty good, and has laid the foundation to be very good going forward. But it doesn't match the resume of St John's, 7th on the all-time wins list. You're still a Final Four, four Sweet Sixteens and a couple of NCAA appearances short of Providence, not to mention Providence organized the league in the first place. You're still three Sweet Sixteens short of Seton HAll, and eight Sweet Sixteens short of DePaul.

VCU belongs in the conference. But VCU is new blood, the C-7 is old money. I say we need new blood, but certain things have to be understood.

(03-07-2013 02:03 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  Ok cool, you have a large student population. That must immediately = long-term success. Just like North Texas, UTEP, UTSA, Florida Atlantic, etc.

Fine, if you don't like JMU then George Mason. Better school, better location. Also, VCU isn't above UVA and Va Tech suddenly just because they had a little success. Long-term, George Mason and JMU have upside (JMU has football, so that was a + for a state school competing for attention and fans long term) and both are closer to the most influential TV market in the state -DC. VCU will never own the state. UConn was the flagship state university in Connecticut. VCU? One of a bunch way below Va Tech and UVA. Tell me, what power in college athletics is the 4th or 5th school in their conference. VCU is just a North Texas, Western Michigan, etc that doesn't play football.

And seriously, you're bragging about a home and home? Maybe that's why VCU has had some success, no team in Virginia ever has. That's a low bar to pass. So congrats.

Virginia hasn't made noise in college basketball since Ralph Sampson went to the NBA, and Virginia Tech hasn't made noise in college basketball ever. So VCU absolutely has a chance to be the #1 basketball school in Virginia.

Placing them behind FCS schools and lower-FBS schools who have no accomplishments of note in any revenue sport is ridiculous. George Mason had a Final Four, and is closer to DC. But closer to DC is in a way a disadvantage, because it puts you closer to Georgetown and Maryland. And George MAson went right back down after that Final Four.

(03-07-2013 03:53 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 03:39 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  "Again, let's stop acting like VCU has only been successful since 2011. It isn't true, but it constantly gets repeated. As I've posted before, they are arguably more successful than any other non-ock candidate in the last 30ish years even WITHOUT their Final Four run. More appearances, more wins than everyone but Richmond (and again, more wins than Richmond counting the Final Four)."

YOU took out the NCAA run out and without that you must accept that VCU was winning against sub-par teams. Their SOS over that time is above 100. That doesn't mean you were more successful because you beating weaker competition than the other candidates.

OK, you are being dense. Here are the teams VCU played in the tournament:

1980: #5 Iowa L 86-72
1981: #12 Long Island W 85-69
1981: #4 Tennessee L 58-56 OT
1983: #12 La Salle W 76-67
1983: #4 Georgia L 56-54
1984: #11 Northeastern W 70-69
1984: #3 Syracuse L 78-63
1985: #15 Marshall W 81-65
1985: #7 Alabama L 63-59
1996: #5 Mississippi St. L 58-51
2004: #4 Wake Forest L 79-78
2007: #6 Duke W 79-77
2007: #3 Pittsburgh L 84-79 OT
2009: #6 UCLA L 65-64
2012: #5 Wichita State W 62-59
2012: #4 Indiana L 63-61

Again, this is WITHOUT the Final Four run, IN the tournament. 16 games, in 32 years, with 5 wins. A bid every 3 years, a win every 6. That isn't incredible, like Xavier or Gonzaga, but it is consistent success on a higher scale than the other teams. And you can't act like they never played anyone, because the majority of those teams are power conference teams.

Again, let's stop making this misconception. That's all I ask. People continue to act like what I just posted never happened, and VCU's entire history is summed up in one coach going to one long run in the tournament. They have appearances under 5 different coaches and wins under three. It isn't about where they came from, but about what they did in the tournament.

Well if you look at that you notice their wins are against non-power league teams except that Duke upset.

Also I was NOT being dense I was pointing out that their success was while playing a su-par SOS schedule. They do not make the tournament even close to the amount of times they did playing the schedules SLU and Dayton were playing.

Oh and lets not act like without that Final Four run we'd be even discussing VCU as an actual candidate. Those stats you've shown me would not overcome the St. Louis TV market or the Dayton support. Even with the Final Four run it looks like they can't.

(03-07-2013 04:02 PM)BigBCherney Wrote:  Wow, what a stupid response. Siena vs. SLU? Media markets doesn't separate them?

There are lots of factors that needs to be taken into account when creating a new league. Markets, fan support, similar like-minded schools, success. The VCU crowd is only focusing on success.

The point is to highlight the hilarity of saying that on-court success should not be the primary consideration. The main consideration should ALWAYS be success on the court, because success on the court drives everything. It can't make your market any bigger or turn a public school into a private, but fan support, media attention, and bias are all driven by past and present success.

(03-07-2013 04:30 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 04:02 PM)BigBCherney Wrote:  Wow, what a stupid response. Siena vs. SLU? Media markets doesn't separate them?

There are lots of factors that needs to be taken into account when creating a new league. Markets, fan support, similar like-minded schools, success. The VCU crowd is only focusing on success.

The point is to highlight the hilarity of saying that on-court success should not be the primary consideration. The main consideration should ALWAYS be success on the court, because success on the court drives everything. It can't make your market any bigger or turn a public school into a private, but fan support, media attention, and bias are all driven by past and present success.

There are multiple considerations and on the court success is NOT the only one. VCU wishes it had Daytons support or St. Louis market and both of their institutional fit. If they did they would be a shoe in, but on the court success is not the only consideration.

(03-07-2013 04:04 PM)Roader Wrote:  Id love for UD to have this success but if were going to over analyze everything lets look at the teams they beat, none of them are power teams whether they come from a power conference or not (exception being Duke). Then again 2 wins in over 20 years is not that great either. Add in their FF run and yes, they are more successful than a majority of NCAA teams

1981: #12 Long Island W 85-69
1983: #12 La Salle W 76-67
1984: #11 Northeastern W 70-69
1985: #15 Marshall W 81-65
2007: #6 Duke W 79-77
2012: #5 Wichita State W 62-59

But look at those losses. Two of them were overtime losses versus top 4 seeds. 5 of them were by less than 3 points.

The point is that they get to the tournament, and they have been consistently successful, more so than Creighton, SLU, Dayton, or Richmond. I'm not trying to make a broader statement than that, not trying to make a statement for their inclusion in the league.

Instead, I just think that people need to realize that their success is not based around the 2011 run or Shaka Smart. That caps off their success, but isn't everything.

(03-07-2013 04:38 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 04:04 PM)Roader Wrote:  Id love for UD to have this success but if were going to over analyze everything lets look at the teams they beat, none of them are power teams whether they come from a power conference or not (exception being Duke). Then again 2 wins in over 20 years is not that great either. Add in their FF run and yes, they are more successful than a majority of NCAA teams

1981: #12 Long Island W 85-69
1983: #12 La Salle W 76-67
1984: #11 Northeastern W 70-69
1985: #15 Marshall W 81-65
2007: #6 Duke W 79-77
2012: #5 Wichita State W 62-59

But look at those losses. Two of them were overtime losses versus top 4 seeds. 5 of them were by less than 3 points.

The point is that they get to the tournament, and they have been consistently successful, more so than Creighton, SLU, Dayton, or Richmond. I'm not trying to make a broader statement than that, not trying to make a statement for their inclusion in the league.

Instead, I just think that people need to realize that their success is not based around the 2011 run or Shaka Smart. That caps off their success, but isn't everything.

The point is they don't make the tournament in most of those years playing in the old CUSA or Metro or those other leagues that St. Louis and Dayton had to play through. VCU wasn't going against Cincy, UofL and Marquette. The reason they were playing top 4 seeds is because they were in those leagues that only send one school and said school is usually just fodder. THATS the point im trying to make.

(03-07-2013 04:30 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 04:02 PM)BigBCherney Wrote:  Wow, what a stupid response. Siena vs. SLU? Media markets doesn't separate them?

There are lots of factors that needs to be taken into account when creating a new league. Markets, fan support, similar like-minded schools, success. The VCU crowd is only focusing on success.

The point is to highlight the hilarity of saying that on-court success should not be the primary consideration. The main consideration should ALWAYS be success on the court, because success on the court drives everything. It can't make your market any bigger or turn a public school into a private, but fan support, media attention, and bias are all driven by past and present success.

Wrong. And it's wrong because you can't predict future success. If you could, you'd have a point, but you can't. That's why markets, fan support, similar like-minded schools are more important. You can't predict future success. End of discussion.