(03-07-2013 12:37 PM)billyjack Wrote:  I always thought of Bloomington, Indiana as College Hoops Central. Basically make a 150-mile-radius circle around IU. This probably goes back to when "Hoosiers" came out. It's also got me psyched to have Butler and Hinkle as part of the conference.

"I play, Coach stays. He goes, I go."

Point being... adding another school in a college basketball hotbed isn't a bad thing (say, including Dayton). It'd be like the NHL returning to Quebec City.

If they were good, then yes. But otherwise, you have a possible DePaul situation all over again. We don't need that at all, hotbed be damned.

(03-07-2013 12:25 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  stever20 - In 2010 (the Duke/Butler/MSU/WVU Final Four year), Dayton was ranked #6 in NCAA Tournament viewing.

http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/newswire/20...urney.html

Dayton is consistently one of the strongest college basketball markets in the country. That's the entire reason why the NCAA has made it the permanent host of the First Four along with awarding them first/second round NCAA Tournament games on top of that. Few of the biggest markets would sellout games with those events going back-to-back, yet Dayton does it easily. It's not just a market on paper - people actually watch games there and buy tickets en masse.

Right but the question becomes do they already have that market with Xavier and Butler already fairly close by in- and then build with the Richmond market(Richmond or VCU)?

Yes, it's a fair question. I don't doubt that if there's one school that has to feel nervous, it would be Dayton where they'd get swapped out for Richmond. (I can't imagine SLU getting passed up at this point.) However, I'm just pointing out that the ratings are so strong in Dayton and its surrounding areas that it's sort of like how it's a good thing that UNC, Duke and NC State are right next to each other in the ACC. There's an insatiable appetite for college basketball there.

The two ways that a cable network makes more subscription revenue are: (1) expanding into a new market (which is talked about a lot in conference realignment) OR (2) charging superhigh rates in markets where the network is deemed a "must have at any cost" (which is just as important in conference realignment but not talked about as much). The Big Ten, for instance, is banking on making money from Rutgers and Maryland from Option 1. However, the additional revenue from Nebraska was all about Option 2, where it was a small market on paper but the BTN could literally name its price in that market and cable carriers had to carry it to survive. (In the old Big 12 third tier rights structure, Nebraska had more pay-per-view game purchases than any other school, including Texas, even with a fraction of the home population. Literally hundreds of thousands of people were spending $100 to watch Nebraska beat up on FCS and MAC schools on TV, much less purchasing tickets to a game!)

Dayton provides an argument for Option 2 for Fox. FS1 and FS2 can become "must haves" in the State of Ohio in a manner that might not be possible in Virginia. Once again, I'm not saying that this means Dayton would definitely be more valuable than Richmond TV-wise, but this consideration makes it closer than what you would think at face value just looking at geography.

(03-07-2013 12:37 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:35 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  I dont care what the viewership is in the Dayton area. They have won 2 NCAA Tourney games since 1984. 1984!. They are a 2nd rate program that doesnt belong in the new Big East. I for one hope they are not included.

Good first post.

Too bad they are also in the top 30 in attendance and would be 3rd in the new league behind Creighton and Marquette.

Since when did attendance matter. Wins is all that matters. I live on the East Coast and I can tell you that Dayton is not respected program? Dayton fans always want to point to thier facilities and the media market but tell me this....When was Dayton's last win in the Tourney? What were they seeded? What NBA players have they produced in the past 20 years? X (Cinn), Butler (Indy), St. L, and Creighton (Omaha) are all from major cities. Along with not winning, they are a victim of thier location. Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio? Small time program. Have fun playing Fordham.

(03-07-2013 12:43 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:25 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:18 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  stever20 - In 2010 (the Duke/Butler/MSU/WVU Final Four year), Dayton was ranked #6 in NCAA Tournament viewing.

http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/newswire/20...urney.html

Dayton is consistently one of the strongest college basketball markets in the country. That's the entire reason why the NCAA has made it the permanent host of the First Four along with awarding them first/second round NCAA Tournament games on top of that. Few of the biggest markets would sellout games with those events going back-to-back, yet Dayton does it easily. It's not just a market on paper - people actually watch games there and buy tickets en masse.

Right but the question becomes do they already have that market with Xavier and Butler already fairly close by in- and then build with the Richmond market(Richmond or VCU)?

Yes, it's a fair question. I don't doubt that if there's one school that has to feel nervous, it would be Dayton where they'd get swapped out for Richmond. (I can't imagine SLU getting passed up at this point.) However, I'm just pointing out that the ratings are so strong in Dayton and its surrounding areas that it's sort of like how it's a good thing that UNC, Duke and NC State are right next to each other in the ACC. There's an insatiable appetite for college basketball there.

The two ways that a cable network makes more subscription revenue are: (1) expanding into a new market (which is talked about a lot in conference realignment) OR (2) charging superhigh rates in markets where the network is deemed a "must have at any cost" (which is just as important in conference realignment but not talked about as much). The Big Ten, for instance, is banking on making money from Rutgers and Maryland from Option 1. However, the additional revenue from Nebraska was all about Option 2, where it was a small market on paper but the BTN could literally name its price in that market and cable carriers had to carry it to survive. (In the old Big 12 third tier rights structure, Nebraska had more pay-per-view game purchases than any other school, including Texas, even with a fraction of the home population. Literally hundreds of thousands of people were spending $100 to watch Nebraska beat up on FCS and MAC schools on TV, much less purchasing tickets to a game!)

Dayton provides an argument for Option 2 for Fox. FS1 and FS2 can become "must haves" in the State of Ohio in a manner that might not be possible in Virginia. Once again, I'm not saying that this means Dayton would definitely be more valuable than Richmond TV-wise, but this consideration makes it closer than what you would think at face value just looking at geography.

I think a major thing though is Fox wants to gets it's FSN into the DC/Virginia area. Having 3-4 Georgetown games would help- but havnig in addition 4-5 Richmond(or VCU if they got smart) games(a lot vs reconizable teams)- doesn't hurt in any fashion at all. They still would have a lot of demand in western Ohio/Eastern Indiana due to Xavier and Butler being in.

Also, competitively Richmond even is much stronger than Dayton. Since 1984- Triple the NCAA wins compared to Dayton. 2 more appearances since 1984.

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio?

Of course they do. Dayton is one of the easiest airports to get in and out of in the country. Fly in to Dayton and bus down to Xavier for the game. Avoid the headaches of CVG. Who wants to deal with a bad airport experience after losing the game?

(03-07-2013 11:48 AM)brista21 Wrote:  I'm certain that St. Louis is #11, could be Richmond rather than Dayton for #12. Market wise it makes more sense to go with a 6th East Coast Market rather than a virtual duplication of Xavier's market. (Although I'm not a media exec.) Then it gives a nice even split of 6 East Coast schools and 6 Midwestern Schools.

Going after markets only works if you end up with a super footprint. I..e the combined Big East, while I was not a fan of the strategy itself, would have had a big asset if all teams stuck together because it would have had a 75 million person footprint. When it broke up, all of those large markets became worthless with only a 32 million persson footprint. The same is somewhat true here. The markets help, at this point, the Big East market footprint is around 41.6 million people, inclduing the C7, Butler, Xavier, and Creighton, good for sixth in the country behind the five major conferences. With Dayton and Saint Louis it is 44.9 million, and with Saint Louis and Richmond it is 45.7 million. Not a big difference. Also as Dayton and Cincinnati are separate media markets. And even with Dayton being about half the size of richmond, it draws twice as many college basketball fans, which makes the two somewhat of a wash.

This does not include 1 the risidual affect of one the Dayton/Xavier rivalry, and 2 how two teams in neighboring markets do a better job of attractive viewers in other nearby markets than a solo team in one market (i.e. Xavier + Dayton does better in the rest of Ohio together, than either Richmond or Xavier could on their own in their state outside of the metro area).

I'm on the east coast, and Dayton is considered to be a competent, respected program. In talk of a hoops split over the years, reflexively we'd talk about adding Xavier, Dayton and Saint Louis. Ed Cooley's first signing a month after becoming the PC coach was to get LaDontae Henton. When we learned he had planned to go to Dayton (coaching change made him switch), we thought it was a good sign that he had been courted by a solid hoops program. I live close to URI so I'm semi-familiar with A-10 schools, and Dayton has always been considered to be near the top.

Essentailly what Stever is saying is that nothing matters but VCU's 2011 Final four Run, which even though history suggests is an anomoly, will likely happen again and again

Got it.

(03-07-2013 12:57 PM)billyjack Wrote:  I'm on the east coast, and Dayton is considered to be a competent, respected program. In talk of a hoops split over the years, reflexively we'd talk about adding Xavier, Dayton and Saint Louis. Ed Cooley's first signing a month after becoming the PC coach was to get LaDontae Henton. When we learned he had planned to go to Dayton (coaching change made him switch), we thought it was a good sign that he had been courted by a solid hoops program. I live close to URI so I'm semi-familiar with A-10 schools, and Dayton has always been considered to be near the top.

I live in the middle of these schools. Dayton is one of the few teams in a non-BCS league to get home games from the likes of Kentucky AND Louisville. Every other A-10 team (off the top of my head) that I can think of that has played either in the last 20 years or so (while they were in the A-10) has only played on the road with no home game. Food for thought, as that is not the sign of a school "no one cares about."

Dayton has two things going against them: their lack of tournament success over the past 20 years or so and their close proximity to Xavier (media markets).

Other than that, they have good facilities, sell-out their arena, and great fan support.

I just think the first two cons outweigh the pros. But we'll see.

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:37 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:35 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  I dont care what the viewership is in the Dayton area. They have won 2 NCAA Tourney games since 1984. 1984!. They are a 2nd rate program that doesnt belong in the new Big East. I for one hope they are not included.

Good first post.

Too bad they are also in the top 30 in attendance and would be 3rd in the new league behind Creighton and Marquette.

Since when did attendance matter. Wins is all that matters. I live on the East Coast and I can tell you that Dayton is not respected program? Dayton fans always want to point to thier facilities and the media market but tell me this....When was Dayton's last win in the Tourney? What were they seeded? What NBA players have they produced in the past 20 years? X (Cinn), Butler (Indy), St. L, and Creighton (Omaha) are all from major cities. Along with not winning, they are a victim of thier location. Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio? Small time program. Have fun playing Fordham.

1. I'm not a Dayton fan

2. Color me surprised that an Xavier fan doesn't want Dayton in.

3. Attendance and ratings shows fan support.

4. I don't care where GTown wants to fly too, they are not the only voice in the C7.

5. X doesn't have a say in the matter.

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:37 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:35 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  I dont care what the viewership is in the Dayton area. They have won 2 NCAA Tourney games since 1984. 1984!. They are a 2nd rate program that doesnt belong in the new Big East. I for one hope they are not included.

Good first post.

Too bad they are also in the top 30 in attendance and would be 3rd in the new league behind Creighton and Marquette.

Since when did attendance matter. Wins is all that matters. I live on the East Coast and I can tell you that Dayton is not respected program? Dayton fans always want to point to thier facilities and the media market but tell me this....When was Dayton's last win in the Tourney? What were they seeded? What NBA players have they produced in the past 20 years? X (Cinn), Butler (Indy), St. L, and Creighton (Omaha) are all from major cities. Along with not winning, they are a victim of thier location. Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio? Small time program. Have fun playing Fordham.

Their last tourny win was 2009 over WVU as a 10 seed, in 04 they were a 10 seed and in 03 they were a 4 seed.

The past 20 years Negele Knight was an NBA draft pick. In the past 2 years they have had 3 players in the NBA; Chris Wright, Chris Johnson, and Brian Roberts.

Butler and Dayton are also the only 2 of the 5 to have a Final 4 appearance. And have more all time tournament wins than Creighton and SLU. With twice as many appearances as SLU.

As far as traveling to Dayton, it is probably the easiest of any. I know Dayton International has direct flights to NYC, Philly, St. Louis, DC, and Chicago. Even though all those schools charter all their basketball flights, anyway. Plus DIA is probably just as close to Xavier as CVG and is much easier to get through.

They sell more season tickets than the Cintas Center seats and have led the A10 in attendance since they have joined.

I don't have a horse in the race, just enjoy following. It's just funny how people's perceptions are about schools.

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:37 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:35 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  I dont care what the viewership is in the Dayton area. They have won 2 NCAA Tourney games since 1984. 1984!. They are a 2nd rate program that doesnt belong in the new Big East. I for one hope they are not included.

Good first post.

Too bad they are also in the top 30 in attendance and would be 3rd in the new league behind Creighton and Marquette.

Since when did attendance matter. Wins is all that matters. I live on the East Coast and I can tell you that Dayton is not respected program? Dayton fans always want to point to thier facilities and the media market but tell me this....When was Dayton's last win in the Tourney? What were they seeded? What NBA players have they produced in the past 20 years? X (Cinn), Butler (Indy), St. L, and Creighton (Omaha) are all from major cities. Along with not winning, they are a victim of thier location. Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio? Small time program. Have fun playing Fordham.

Outliers in attendance (whether good or bad) do matter. It's not necessarily the attendance in and of itself, but rather a measure of fan support that consistent over a long period of time. In the C7 realm, being in the 6000 to 8000 per game range is fairly normal. For those schools in that range, attendance is neither a blessing or a curse. When you see it in the 2000 per game area, like it is with Detroit, then that's a problem. If Detroit is only drawing that much when it's fairly competitive, then they're never going to have enough support to get them through good times or bad. In contrast, schools that draw over 10,000 people per game even when they're mediocre are honestly much harder to find than schools that have had hot NCAA Tournament runs.

Conference realignment is as much about what value a school brings in the worst case scenario as it is in the best case scenario. That's what's missing in a lot of the discussions. It's easy to say that you like schools when they're in Final Fours and going 18-0 in conference play. That's not the standard. Instead, the real analysis is if you're comfortable about having a school in your league even when it's 0-18 in conference play. Do they have fan support/attendance to get them through those times? Do they have a TV market? Do they have a recruiting area? Do they fit with the other institutions? Do we actually like being associated with this school? I know that there are always going to be fans that simply believe that the on-the-court performance should trump above all, but the reality is that such on-the-court performance is the biggest variable year-to-year. The other off-the-court metrics are much more fixed and in control of the administration. If you meet the other off-the-court metrics, THEN you start looking at on-the-court performance. Too many people look at it the other way around.

(03-07-2013 12:54 PM)XU-XHI Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio?

Of course they do. Dayton is one of the easiest airports to get in and out of in the country. Fly in to Dayton and bus down to Xavier for the game. Avoid the headaches of CVG. Who wants to deal with a bad airport experience after losing the game?

Is anyone else chuckling about the supposed issues of the Dayton airport experience (which Nuchman obviously has never been to if he thinks it's difficult to get in and out of), seeing that Dayton is where the airplane itself was invented?

(03-07-2013 12:43 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:37 PM)billyjack Wrote:  I always thought of Bloomington, Indiana as College Hoops Central. Basically make a 150-mile-radius circle around IU. This probably goes back to when "Hoosiers" came out. It's also got me psyched to have Butler and Hinkle as part of the conference.

"I play, Coach stays. He goes, I go."

Point being... adding another school in a college basketball hotbed isn't a bad thing (say, including Dayton). It'd be like the NHL returning to Quebec City.

If they were good, then yes. But otherwise, you have a possible DePaul situation all over again. We don't need that at all, hotbed be damned.

The DePaul fear gets overused. In the 33 years of the Big East, it's been known as a conference where programs get better. Someone wrote the other day that the 1980 Big East had only 3 or 4 great programs... ok, well, by 1990, 6 of our 9 programs made a Final Four... of the other three, 2 made Elite Eights in that time... and the 9th team (Pitt) had a 1-2-or-3 seed in 1988...

Miami was added and they basically started from scratch in hoops. Within 10 years they had 4 NCAA bids, a Sweet 16, and a Big East Regular season title.

West Virginia had only made 1 NCAA in its last 6 seasons in the A-10, but within 3 years in the Big East they made a Sweet 16, and within 10 years they became a perennial tourney team.

Notre Dame in its last 5 indy years hadn't made the NCAA's. Within 5 or 6 years they became a perennial tourney team.

Rutgers hadn't had much success in its later A-10 years, and they've been the only school to not thrive in the Big East.

South Florida has struggled but last year won 2 NCAA games.

Cincinnati struggled at first in the Big East, but now has a great program with recent NCAA bids.

Marquette and Louisville continued having great success.

Virginia Tech steadily improved in their 4 years with us.

DePaul started fine in the Big East, but made a bad coaching hire to set them back.

So of the 19 teams to ever play Big East hoops, only 2 have really struggled for an extended period.

(03-07-2013 01:20 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:54 PM)XU-XHI Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio?

Of course they do. Dayton is one of the easiest airports to get in and out of in the country. Fly in to Dayton and bus down to Xavier for the game. Avoid the headaches of CVG. Who wants to deal with a bad airport experience after losing the game?

Is anyone else chuckling about the supposed issues of the Dayton airport experience (which Nuchman obviously has never been to if he thinks it's difficult to get in and out of), seeing that Dayton is where the airplane itself was invented?

I have been to the Dayton airport and its a fine facility but Dayton is not a major city. Look at every othet team is this proposed conf, they are all based in major cities. But I guess the BE should inlcude them because the airplane was invented in Dayton. Therein lies the problem with Dayton and thier fans. I am getting off my soapbox now and will chuckle when they dont get the invite. If by some chance they do, X will continue to own you. Peace

(03-07-2013 01:28 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 01:20 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:54 PM)XU-XHI Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio?

Of course they do. Dayton is one of the easiest airports to get in and out of in the country. Fly in to Dayton and bus down to Xavier for the game. Avoid the headaches of CVG. Who wants to deal with a bad airport experience after losing the game?

Is anyone else chuckling about the supposed issues of the Dayton airport experience (which Nuchman obviously has never been to if he thinks it's difficult to get in and out of), seeing that Dayton is where the airplane itself was invented?

I have been to the Dayton airport and its a fine facility but Dayton is not a major city. Look at every othet team is this proposed conf, they are all based in major cities. But I guess the BE should inlcude them because the airplane was invented in Dayton. Therein lies the problem with Dayton and thier fans. I am getting off my soapbox now and will chuckle when they dont get the invite. If by some chance they do, X will continue to own you. Peace

Another question... on some boards I've seen a strong dislike of Dayton and their fans... I think the Marquette board and the Xavier board... were there fights or bad incidents or something...? or are Dayton fans drunkards...? I've gone to Dayton games at URI, and their fans have been fine. Not obnoxious. Not drunk. Seemed pretty knowledgable about the game. Small sample size on my part, so is there something I'm missing...?

(03-07-2013 01:28 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 01:20 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:54 PM)XU-XHI Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio?

Of course they do. Dayton is one of the easiest airports to get in and out of in the country. Fly in to Dayton and bus down to Xavier for the game. Avoid the headaches of CVG. Who wants to deal with a bad airport experience after losing the game?

Is anyone else chuckling about the supposed issues of the Dayton airport experience (which Nuchman obviously has never been to if he thinks it's difficult to get in and out of), seeing that Dayton is where the airplane itself was invented?

I have been to the Dayton airport and its a fine facility but Dayton is not a major city. Look at every othet team is this proposed conf, they are all based in major cities. But I guess the BE should inlcude them because the airplane was invented in Dayton. Therein lies the problem with Dayton and thier fans. I am getting off my soapbox now and will chuckle when they dont get the invite. If by some chance they do, X will continue to own you. Peace

I don't think he understands that we're not all Dayton fans. hahaha

(03-07-2013 01:35 PM)billyjack Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 01:28 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 01:20 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:54 PM)XU-XHI Wrote:  

(03-07-2013 12:47 PM)Nuchman Wrote:  Do you really think GTown wants to fly to Dayton, Ohio?

Of course they do. Dayton is one of the easiest airports to get in and out of in the country. Fly in to Dayton and bus down to Xavier for the game. Avoid the headaches of CVG. Who wants to deal with a bad airport experience after losing the game?

Is anyone else chuckling about the supposed issues of the Dayton airport experience (which Nuchman obviously has never been to if he thinks it's difficult to get in and out of), seeing that Dayton is where the airplane itself was invented?

I have been to the Dayton airport and its a fine facility but Dayton is not a major city. Look at every othet team is this proposed conf, they are all based in major cities. But I guess the BE should inlcude them because the airplane was invented in Dayton. Therein lies the problem with Dayton and thier fans. I am getting off my soapbox now and will chuckle when they dont get the invite. If by some chance they do, X will continue to own you. Peace

Another question... on some boards I've seen a strong dislike of Dayton and their fans... I think the Marquette board and the Xavier board... were there fights or bad incidents or something...? or are Dayton fans drunkards...? I've gone to Dayton games at URI, and their fans have been fine. Not obnoxious. Not drunk. Seemed pretty knowledgable about the game. Small sample size on my part, so is there something I'm missing...?

Xavier and Dayton are rivals so of course Xavier is trash talking Dayton.

(03-07-2013 01:35 PM)billyjack Wrote:  Another question... on some boards I've seen a strong dislike of Dayton and their fans... I think the Marquette board and the Xavier board... were there fights or bad incidents or something...? or are Dayton fans drunkards...? I've gone to Dayton games at URI, and their fans have been fine. Not obnoxious. Not drunk. Seemed pretty knowledgable about the game. Small sample size on my part, so is there something I'm missing...?

Just my personal opinion but a lot of Dayton fans get a lot of flack for being delusional. A lot of them (again, not sure if it's the majority or not) think their team is always good and constantly overhype them and the team proves to disappoint.

I'm sure other Xavier fans can chime in on this if you're looking for our perspective.