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Statman101 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Basketball Questions:
(02-14-2013 03:45 PM)OrangeCamel Wrote:  
(02-14-2013 02:07 PM)Statman101 Wrote:  I think its an issue of experience.

So, any guess how many more wins we're good for next season if the basketball program remains intact in its present form?

And another question....

Is it now time to start focusing on recruiting primarily newly-graduated high school seniors?

A look at rosters of schools that should be our peers, specifically the "Previous School" column.....

Samford (currently 8-17, 6-6 SoCon) - 13 players, 14 previous schools (one player also went to Fork Union Military; 4 Juniors, the rest are Freshmen/Sophomores)

Belmont (currently 20-5, 11-1 OVC) - 15 players, 17 previous schools (the extra 2...1 went to Hargrave Military and another transfered from Samford; 5 Seniors, 3 Juniors, 4 Sophomores, 3 Freshmen)

CAMPBELL - 15 players, 27 previous schools incl HS, JC, CC, "Academy", "Institute", other D-1; 1 Senior, 5 Juniors, 5 Sophomores, 3 Freshmen)

I can't tell you how many wins this team will have in a year. The reason? Injuries. The reason this team isn't winning at a high level at this very moment is because of injuries. CU lost for the season the best player in this league by far (not even close). Also, I still contend and for very good reason that other players are playing hurt. Personally, I think this team is still in first place IF those injuries don't happen. I don't think you can take the best player off of any team and expect to be anywhere near the team you would have been.

As for recruiting "newly" graduated HS players, I don't see the logic to doing that exclusively. First, no one does that at this level. Second, Darren White, Darius Leonard, Reco McCarter and Antwon Oliver would have NEVER considered Campbell prior to transfering. White, going to JMU in the CAA, was even considered a step down. McCarter was a high level recruit out of HS along with Leonard and Oliver and obviously had better offers.

As for teams that recruit alot of JUCO's and successful, Bob Huggins has made a living with JUCO players at Cincy, K State and WVU. Cliff Ellis at Coastal Carolina in this very league does a great job of taking transfers and JUCO's and winning.

As for peers, I want to correct a couple of things. I don't care who Samford recruits. They have had one winning season in the last five years and it took 18 homes game (14-4 record) to win a total of 18 games. Campbell has already surpassed (in my mind) Samford as a program.

Belmont is a peer in name only! Belmont has always ALWAYS funded its program better than CU has funded its program. Belmont is located in what in 2013 was considered the #1 hottest city in the US. It has more $$$ and while I know I may get grief for this...their facility while older is still far superior especially when it comes to amenitites. Not that anyone is worthy of this money, but do you know how much Rick Byrd made a season ago? $700,000.00 +! That is just one area of better funding. If Byrd is making that much, how much are assistants making? How much bigger is their operating budget? or recruiting?

Belmont, much like Mercer, was a peer at one point, but much like Belmont when Mercer started spending more $$$, shock! Their programs got better.

I contend that CU's issues are less at the coaching level and I mean across the board. The problems I see are fiscal in relation to your suggest peers and not just fiscal in terms of dollars (which is hard to explain) but I won't go into all of that.
02-15-2013 11:08 AM
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camelfan Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Basketball Questions:
You cannot compare Rick Byrd at Belmont to any coach we have had. He is a master. He proved it all too well when he came back from a large deficit in the Creek one Saturday afternoon that I will never forget.

You can take all our coaches together and you will not get a Rick Byrd.
02-15-2013 01:14 PM
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toley2345 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Basketball Questions:
(02-15-2013 01:14 PM)camelfan Wrote:  You cannot compare Rick Byrd at Belmont to any coach we have had. He is a master. He proved it all too well when he came back from a large deficit in the Creek one Saturday afternoon that I will never forget.

You can take all our coaches together and you will not get a Rick Byrd.

I will never forget that game lol.
02-15-2013 01:26 PM
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Statman101 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Basketball Questions:
(02-15-2013 01:14 PM)camelfan Wrote:  You cannot compare Rick Byrd at Belmont to any coach we have had. He is a master. He proved it all too well when he came back from a large deficit in the Creek one Saturday afternoon that I will never forget.

You can take all our coaches together and you will not get a Rick Byrd.

I could not AGREE with you more! Just so you are aware, I am not comparing Rick Byrd to anyone in terms of level of coach. I am comparing strictly budget and what I perceive to be support (finiancial or otherwise) for programs across the board.

I am not saying Rick Byrd is not worth that money and anyone on CU's campus is. What I am saying is that Rick Byrd is not at a peer institution because of his salary and the budget his department has to operate with. I'll pose this question. Do you think Campbell would pay any coach regardless of success $700,000? Keep in mind that I would estimate that amount is about 5 times the current coaching salary and is probably about 3 times what the University president makes (Belmont's President makes roughly $900,000). Also, Belmont averaged less than 70 more people per game last year than CU AND is about 900 more per game this year. So the salary difference is not made up in ticket sales.

All my statement before was saying, is that Belmont is not a peer institution. Mercer is quickly not a peer institution either. I am not talking about sports. I am just looking at enrollment numbers and overall size of the schools.

I would think CU is more on par with Charleston Southern, who was terrible with a capital T in athletics until recently, Presbyterian, Jacksonville, Stetson, and High Point. I wouldn't even make Liberty a peer institution at this point because of the amount of cash they have always pushed into those athletic programs.

Also, I was at that game as well against Belmont. It was heartbreaking.
02-15-2013 02:17 PM
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wufan Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Basketball Questions:
(02-15-2013 11:08 AM)Statman101 Wrote:  
(02-14-2013 03:45 PM)OrangeCamel Wrote:  
(02-14-2013 02:07 PM)Statman101 Wrote:  I think its an issue of experience.

So, any guess how many more wins we're good for next season if the basketball program remains intact in its present form?

And another question....

Is it now time to start focusing on recruiting primarily newly-graduated high school seniors?

A look at rosters of schools that should be our peers, specifically the "Previous School" column.....

Samford (currently 8-17, 6-6 SoCon) - 13 players, 14 previous schools (one player also went to Fork Union Military; 4 Juniors, the rest are Freshmen/Sophomores)

Belmont (currently 20-5, 11-1 OVC) - 15 players, 17 previous schools (the extra 2...1 went to Hargrave Military and another transfered from Samford; 5 Seniors, 3 Juniors, 4 Sophomores, 3 Freshmen)

CAMPBELL - 15 players, 27 previous schools incl HS, JC, CC, "Academy", "Institute", other D-1; 1 Senior, 5 Juniors, 5 Sophomores, 3 Freshmen)

I can't tell you how many wins this team will have in a year. The reason? Injuries. The reason this team isn't winning at a high level at this very moment is because of injuries. CU lost for the season the best player in this league by far (not even close). Also, I still contend and for very good reason that other players are playing hurt. Personally, I think this team is still in first place IF those injuries don't happen. I don't think you can take the best player off of any team and expect to be anywhere near the team you would have been.

As for recruiting "newly" graduated HS players, I don't see the logic to doing that exclusively. First, no one does that at this level. Second, Darren White, Darius Leonard, Reco McCarter and Antwon Oliver would have NEVER considered Campbell prior to transfering. White, going to JMU in the CAA, was even considered a step down. McCarter was a high level recruit out of HS along with Leonard and Oliver and obviously had better offers.

As for teams that recruit alot of JUCO's and successful, Bob Huggins has made a living with JUCO players at Cincy, K State and WVU. Cliff Ellis at Coastal Carolina in this very league does a great job of taking transfers and JUCO's and winning.

As for peers, I want to correct a couple of things. I don't care who Samford recruits. They have had one winning season in the last five years and it took 18 homes game (14-4 record) to win a total of 18 games. Campbell has already surpassed (in my mind) Samford as a program.

Belmont is a peer in name only! Belmont has always ALWAYS funded its program better than CU has funded its program. Belmont is located in what in 2013 was considered the #1 hottest city in the US. It has more $$$ and while I know I may get grief for this...their facility while older is still far superior especially when it comes to amenitites. Not that anyone is worthy of this money, but do you know how much Rick Byrd made a season ago? $700,000.00 +! That is just one area of better funding. If Byrd is making that much, how much are assistants making? How much bigger is their operating budget? or recruiting?

Belmont, much like Mercer, was a peer at one point, but much like Belmont when Mercer started spending more $$$, shock! Their programs got better.

I contend that CU's issues are less at the coaching level and I mean across the board. The problems I see are fiscal in relation to your suggest peers and not just fiscal in terms of dollars (which is hard to explain) but I won't go into all of that.


Gotta disagree with a lot of that. White is definitely good player and certainly a first or second team all conference guy, but he has also had the tendency to disappear at times as well, I wouldn't call him the best player in the league by far. Even if he was though, a good team can absorb the loss of a good player and still win. Championship teams usually consist of a few to a bunch of good players, not just one star and everyone else relegated to role playing status, the reason being is that unless you have a NBA first rounder on the squad (and that only happens rarely in mid majordom) every "star" player has off nights. To consistently win, you need more than that.

The teams that have won in this league have had good rosters, not just a star guy, and no one in the league has ever won a championship with a bunch of jucos playing primary roles, CCU included.

Look at the teams that have won:

Winthrop for a decade: dynasty that won with guys getting 10 minutes a game that would start for other schools in the conference, all around great rosters with no big scorer---any guy in the starting five and a couple off the bench could the be "star" on any given night.

UNCA last two years: multiple guys that could lead in scoring every night. No one guy that could be lost and deal them a devastating blow.

This year no one is really very good, but Charleston Southern fits the bill so far as the most impressive team with a bunch of 3 pt shooters that can get hot.

Now look at the JUCO teams: High Point about 5-6 years ago, they had some decent teams but no chemistry and always imploded. Would finish 2nd-5th in the league but never really challenged tourney time. CCU has put together some good regular seasons but every year they falter down the stretch and look horrible at crunch time. Not to mention that because of all the questionable character guys they have taken and the resulting arrests/fail outs, etc---they are now going to lose scholarships due to APR. Coastal is about to fall off the cliff so to speak---Ellis will be gone soon with CCU losing scholarships and no championships (unless they get hot at home hosting the tourney which is a possibility----which is the only possibility because they are not a good team.)

A JUCO here or there can work out, but I have never seen a team with a bunch of them win a championship.
02-17-2013 06:17 PM
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Statman101 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Basketball Questions:
(02-17-2013 06:17 PM)wufan Wrote:  
(02-15-2013 11:08 AM)Statman101 Wrote:  
(02-14-2013 03:45 PM)OrangeCamel Wrote:  
(02-14-2013 02:07 PM)Statman101 Wrote:  I think its an issue of experience.

So, any guess how many more wins we're good for next season if the basketball program remains intact in its present form?

And another question....

Is it now time to start focusing on recruiting primarily newly-graduated high school seniors?

A look at rosters of schools that should be our peers, specifically the "Previous School" column.....

Samford (currently 8-17, 6-6 SoCon) - 13 players, 14 previous schools (one player also went to Fork Union Military; 4 Juniors, the rest are Freshmen/Sophomores)

Belmont (currently 20-5, 11-1 OVC) - 15 players, 17 previous schools (the extra 2...1 went to Hargrave Military and another transfered from Samford; 5 Seniors, 3 Juniors, 4 Sophomores, 3 Freshmen)

CAMPBELL - 15 players, 27 previous schools incl HS, JC, CC, "Academy", "Institute", other D-1; 1 Senior, 5 Juniors, 5 Sophomores, 3 Freshmen)

I can't tell you how many wins this team will have in a year. The reason? Injuries. The reason this team isn't winning at a high level at this very moment is because of injuries. CU lost for the season the best player in this league by far (not even close). Also, I still contend and for very good reason that other players are playing hurt. Personally, I think this team is still in first place IF those injuries don't happen. I don't think you can take the best player off of any team and expect to be anywhere near the team you would have been.

As for recruiting "newly" graduated HS players, I don't see the logic to doing that exclusively. First, no one does that at this level. Second, Darren White, Darius Leonard, Reco McCarter and Antwon Oliver would have NEVER considered Campbell prior to transfering. White, going to JMU in the CAA, was even considered a step down. McCarter was a high level recruit out of HS along with Leonard and Oliver and obviously had better offers.

As for teams that recruit alot of JUCO's and successful, Bob Huggins has made a living with JUCO players at Cincy, K State and WVU. Cliff Ellis at Coastal Carolina in this very league does a great job of taking transfers and JUCO's and winning.

As for peers, I want to correct a couple of things. I don't care who Samford recruits. They have had one winning season in the last five years and it took 18 homes game (14-4 record) to win a total of 18 games. Campbell has already surpassed (in my mind) Samford as a program.

Belmont is a peer in name only! Belmont has always ALWAYS funded its program better than CU has funded its program. Belmont is located in what in 2013 was considered the #1 hottest city in the US. It has more $$$ and while I know I may get grief for this...their facility while older is still far superior especially when it comes to amenitites. Not that anyone is worthy of this money, but do you know how much Rick Byrd made a season ago? $700,000.00 +! That is just one area of better funding. If Byrd is making that much, how much are assistants making? How much bigger is their operating budget? or recruiting?

Belmont, much like Mercer, was a peer at one point, but much like Belmont when Mercer started spending more $$$, shock! Their programs got better.

I contend that CU's issues are less at the coaching level and I mean across the board. The problems I see are fiscal in relation to your suggest peers and not just fiscal in terms of dollars (which is hard to explain) but I won't go into all of that.


Gotta disagree with a lot of that. White is definitely good player and certainly a first or second team all conference guy, but he has also had the tendency to disappear at times as well, I wouldn't call him the best player in the league by far. Even if he was though, a good team can absorb the loss of a good player and still win. Championship teams usually consist of a few to a bunch of good players, not just one star and everyone else relegated to role playing status, the reason being is that unless you have a NBA first rounder on the squad (and that only happens rarely in mid majordom) every "star" player has off nights. To consistently win, you need more than that.

The teams that have won in this league have had good rosters, not just a star guy, and no one in the league has ever won a championship with a bunch of jucos playing primary roles, CCU included.

Look at the teams that have won:

Winthrop for a decade: dynasty that won with guys getting 10 minutes a game that would start for other schools in the conference, all around great rosters with no big scorer---any guy in the starting five and a couple off the bench could the be "star" on any given night.

UNCA last two years: multiple guys that could lead in scoring every night. No one guy that could be lost and deal them a devastating blow.

This year no one is really very good, but Charleston Southern fits the bill so far as the most impressive team with a bunch of 3 pt shooters that can get hot.

Now look at the JUCO teams: High Point about 5-6 years ago, they had some decent teams but no chemistry and always imploded. Would finish 2nd-5th in the league but never really challenged tourney time. CCU has put together some good regular seasons but every year they falter down the stretch and look horrible at crunch time. Not to mention that because of all the questionable character guys they have taken and the resulting arrests/fail outs, etc---they are now going to lose scholarships due to APR. Coastal is about to fall off the cliff so to speak---Ellis will be gone soon with CCU losing scholarships and no championships (unless they get hot at home hosting the tourney which is a possibility----which is the only possibility because they are not a good team.)

A JUCO here or there can work out, but I have never seen a team with a bunch of them win a championship.

Well I respectfully disagree on Darren White. He had been crazy consistent all year despite a fractured hand prior to his knee injury. In fact, despite his fractured hand he had been playing his best basketball. Prior to his injury against GWU, he was on his way to his third straight 20 point/10 rebound performance. In six of the full 10 games he actually played he scored 20 or more and three times scored 30 or more including 36 against App State and 32 against UNCW. If that continued which it was showing no signs of stopping, he would have been a runaway winner of player of the year...especially considering Campbell's record would be better with White and VMI is what it is with Okoye.

As for team's losing their best player and still winning titles, do you honestly believe that? Would KY have won the SEC let alone the SEC without Anthony Davis last year? NO. Would UConn have won the National Title or Big East Tournament without Kemba Walker a few years back? Nope. How about Syracuse and Carmello? I think you see my point. Am I saying Darren White is as good as one of those guys? Absolutely not, but in comparison to the level of competition in the Big South...he would have that big of a difference. Not to mention that with White in the lineup...even if he never scores a point...he makes it easier on the rest of his crew to be more effective.

Plus, I still contend for very good reason other players on this team are playing hurt which is why I think the slide has happened to begin with.

As for Charleston Southern, they have three JUCO's and six of their 13 from JUCO's/Prep/Academies/Transfers. Just FYI.

I am not upset, but I just disagree with your overall assessment. Plus each school is different on what it can and can't do with players and having limitations.
02-18-2013 06:19 PM
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wufan Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Basketball Questions:
(02-18-2013 06:19 PM)Statman101 Wrote:  
(02-17-2013 06:17 PM)wufan Wrote:  
(02-15-2013 11:08 AM)Statman101 Wrote:  
(02-14-2013 03:45 PM)OrangeCamel Wrote:  
(02-14-2013 02:07 PM)Statman101 Wrote:  I think its an issue of experience.

So, any guess how many more wins we're good for next season if the basketball program remains intact in its present form?

And another question....

Is it now time to start focusing on recruiting primarily newly-graduated high school seniors?

A look at rosters of schools that should be our peers, specifically the "Previous School" column.....

Samford (currently 8-17, 6-6 SoCon) - 13 players, 14 previous schools (one player also went to Fork Union Military; 4 Juniors, the rest are Freshmen/Sophomores)

Belmont (currently 20-5, 11-1 OVC) - 15 players, 17 previous schools (the extra 2...1 went to Hargrave Military and another transfered from Samford; 5 Seniors, 3 Juniors, 4 Sophomores, 3 Freshmen)

CAMPBELL - 15 players, 27 previous schools incl HS, JC, CC, "Academy", "Institute", other D-1; 1 Senior, 5 Juniors, 5 Sophomores, 3 Freshmen)

I can't tell you how many wins this team will have in a year. The reason? Injuries. The reason this team isn't winning at a high level at this very moment is because of injuries. CU lost for the season the best player in this league by far (not even close). Also, I still contend and for very good reason that other players are playing hurt. Personally, I think this team is still in first place IF those injuries don't happen. I don't think you can take the best player off of any team and expect to be anywhere near the team you would have been.

As for recruiting "newly" graduated HS players, I don't see the logic to doing that exclusively. First, no one does that at this level. Second, Darren White, Darius Leonard, Reco McCarter and Antwon Oliver would have NEVER considered Campbell prior to transfering. White, going to JMU in the CAA, was even considered a step down. McCarter was a high level recruit out of HS along with Leonard and Oliver and obviously had better offers.

As for teams that recruit alot of JUCO's and successful, Bob Huggins has made a living with JUCO players at Cincy, K State and WVU. Cliff Ellis at Coastal Carolina in this very league does a great job of taking transfers and JUCO's and winning.

As for peers, I want to correct a couple of things. I don't care who Samford recruits. They have had one winning season in the last five years and it took 18 homes game (14-4 record) to win a total of 18 games. Campbell has already surpassed (in my mind) Samford as a program.

Belmont is a peer in name only! Belmont has always ALWAYS funded its program better than CU has funded its program. Belmont is located in what in 2013 was considered the #1 hottest city in the US. It has more $$$ and while I know I may get grief for this...their facility while older is still far superior especially when it comes to amenitites. Not that anyone is worthy of this money, but do you know how much Rick Byrd made a season ago? $700,000.00 +! That is just one area of better funding. If Byrd is making that much, how much are assistants making? How much bigger is their operating budget? or recruiting?

Belmont, much like Mercer, was a peer at one point, but much like Belmont when Mercer started spending more $$$, shock! Their programs got better.

I contend that CU's issues are less at the coaching level and I mean across the board. The problems I see are fiscal in relation to your suggest peers and not just fiscal in terms of dollars (which is hard to explain) but I won't go into all of that.


Gotta disagree with a lot of that. White is definitely good player and certainly a first or second team all conference guy, but he has also had the tendency to disappear at times as well, I wouldn't call him the best player in the league by far. Even if he was though, a good team can absorb the loss of a good player and still win. Championship teams usually consist of a few to a bunch of good players, not just one star and everyone else relegated to role playing status, the reason being is that unless you have a NBA first rounder on the squad (and that only happens rarely in mid majordom) every "star" player has off nights. To consistently win, you need more than that.

The teams that have won in this league have had good rosters, not just a star guy, and no one in the league has ever won a championship with a bunch of jucos playing primary roles, CCU included.

Look at the teams that have won:

Winthrop for a decade: dynasty that won with guys getting 10 minutes a game that would start for other schools in the conference, all around great rosters with no big scorer---any guy in the starting five and a couple off the bench could the be "star" on any given night.

UNCA last two years: multiple guys that could lead in scoring every night. No one guy that could be lost and deal them a devastating blow.

This year no one is really very good, but Charleston Southern fits the bill so far as the most impressive team with a bunch of 3 pt shooters that can get hot.

Now look at the JUCO teams: High Point about 5-6 years ago, they had some decent teams but no chemistry and always imploded. Would finish 2nd-5th in the league but never really challenged tourney time. CCU has put together some good regular seasons but every year they falter down the stretch and look horrible at crunch time. Not to mention that because of all the questionable character guys they have taken and the resulting arrests/fail outs, etc---they are now going to lose scholarships due to APR. Coastal is about to fall off the cliff so to speak---Ellis will be gone soon with CCU losing scholarships and no championships (unless they get hot at home hosting the tourney which is a possibility----which is the only possibility because they are not a good team.)

A JUCO here or there can work out, but I have never seen a team with a bunch of them win a championship.

Well I respectfully disagree on Darren White. He had been crazy consistent all year despite a fractured hand prior to his knee injury. In fact, despite his fractured hand he had been playing his best basketball. Prior to his injury against GWU, he was on his way to his third straight 20 point/10 rebound performance. In six of the full 10 games he actually played he scored 20 or more and three times scored 30 or more including 36 against App State and 32 against UNCW. If that continued which it was showing no signs of stopping, he would have been a runaway winner of player of the year...especially considering Campbell's record would be better with White and VMI is what it is with Okoye.

As for team's losing their best player and still winning titles, do you honestly believe that? Would KY have won the SEC let alone the SEC without Anthony Davis last year? NO. Would UConn have won the National Title or Big East Tournament without Kemba Walker a few years back? Nope. How about Syracuse and Carmello? I think you see my point. Am I saying Darren White is as good as one of those guys? Absolutely not, but in comparison to the level of competition in the Big South...he would have that big of a difference. Not to mention that with White in the lineup...even if he never scores a point...he makes it easier on the rest of his crew to be more effective.

Plus, I still contend for very good reason other players on this team are playing hurt which is why I think the slide has happened to begin with.

As for Charleston Southern, they have three JUCO's and six of their 13 from JUCO's/Prep/Academies/Transfers. Just FYI.

I am not upset, but I just disagree with your overall assessment. Plus each school is different on what it can and can't do with players and having limitations.

No dispute on that White is a very good player, and that you guys are hurt by his loss. I just didn't think he was far and away better than everyone else and if you had him the season would be tremendously different. But I have no idea on if other guys are hurt, though a lot of teams are banged up at this point in the season. UNCA's been without Jaron Lane for the season, LU misses Burris, Winthrop lost their starting pg along with various guys and now Brown done for the season, etc, etc. That is where depth comes in.

Not sure those national title teams are comparable, yes, if Kemba Walker or Anthony Davis like talent played in the Big South and they were lost for the season, you could have a case that they would have won a ship and without them they couldn't, but no one in the Big South is good enough where they can singularly be difference between a .500 record and a championship (my opinion obviously).

As for CSU----not sure where you are getting 6 guys---I see only three JUCOS/Transfers----and only one of them Mau---plays any significant role. Which sort of fits in with one or two can be a big help, but a bunch generally doesn't work out. Guys playing at Academies (if you were counting that)---isn't the same thing.
02-18-2013 10:28 PM
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fightingcamel2594 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Basketball Questions:
Several players are still banged up this season. Ryan and Leek have still been struggling with hamstring issues, and Trey Freeman is battling turf toe which is very evident late in games. I'm sure there is more, but those are the ones I know for sure to be true.
02-19-2013 01:00 PM
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toley2345 Offline
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RE: Basketball Questions:
(02-19-2013 01:00 PM)fightingcamel2594 Wrote:  Several players are still banged up this season. Ryan and Leek have still been struggling with hamstring issues, and Trey Freeman is battling turf toe which is very evident late in games. I'm sure there is more, but those are the ones I know for sure to be true.

How did you find that out?
02-19-2013 02:45 PM
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toley2345 Offline
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RE: Basketball Questions:
Campbell wins in OT! Ugly game but what a bunch of warriors!
02-19-2013 09:31 PM
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