So as a follow up to the cultural fit argument, lets debate whether being a Catholic league helps or hurts. If the invites are as expected and VCU is excluded the league will be perceived as a Catholic only league.

Will that help or hurt viewership nationally? You would have some appeal to a religious based niche which Notre Dame and BYU have leveraged successfully but will it work for a league like it does for a school? Is that niche big enough to support Notre Dame and the league? Will the appeal of the league bring Notre dame back? And lastly, does Butler come under this model as they would clearly be typecast as a Catholic school also when they are not?

(02-09-2013 11:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  So as a follow up to the cultural fit argument, lets debate whether being a Catholic league helps or hurts. If the invites are as expected and VCU is excluded the league will be perceived as a Catholic only league.

Will that help or hurt viewership nationally? You would have some appeal to a religious based niche which Notre Dame and BYU have leveraged successfully but will it work for a league like it does for a school? Is that niche big enough to support Notre Dame and the league? Will the appeal of the league bring Notre dame back? And lastly, does Butler come under this model as they would clearly be typecast as a Catholic school also when they are not?

Butler is team number one getting an invite. Therefore the notion of a Catholic league is out the door. The best long term candidates happen to be private catholic schools. If UConn never upgraded it's FB they would be right there with us. If we were looking for catholic only we would be adding Duesquene (SP?) and Holy Cross. The addition of Richmond would also show that it is not the idea to go all catholic schools. Also most people don't know that Dayton is a Catholic school. I certainly didn't until i learned more about the potential members. Same can be said for St. Louis, most prob think they are the same as Pitt or Cincy. Just another City school.

Also, people will watch good BBall. Is someone really turned off to watch GTown play St. John's or Villanova? No so why would this be a turn off to any BBall fan? Also these schools are not exclusively catholic. Im not Catholic and one of my frat brothers was muslim. These schools are very diverse.

(02-09-2013 11:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  So as a follow up to the cultural fit argument, lets debate whether being a Catholic league helps or hurts. If the invites are as expected and VCU is excluded the league will be perceived as a Catholic only league.

Will that help or hurt viewership nationally? You would have some appeal to a religious based niche which Notre Dame and BYU have leveraged successfully but will it work for a league like it does for a school? Is that niche big enough to support Notre Dame and the league? Will the appeal of the league bring Notre dame back? And lastly, does Butler come under this model as they would clearly be typecast as a Catholic school also when they are not?

I think novelty will take over at first (it's a brand new league), and good basketball will keep the viewers. The "Catholic Conference" is a good catch-phrase, but not entirely correct b/c of Butler being among the first 2 adds.

(02-09-2013 11:54 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 11:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  So as a follow up to the cultural fit argument, lets debate whether being a Catholic league helps or hurts. If the invites are as expected and VCU is excluded the league will be perceived as a Catholic only league.

Will that help or hurt viewership nationally? You would have some appeal to a religious based niche which Notre Dame and BYU have leveraged successfully but will it work for a league like it does for a school? Is that niche big enough to support Notre Dame and the league? Will the appeal of the league bring Notre dame back? And lastly, does Butler come under this model as they would clearly be typecast as a Catholic school also when they are not?

Butler is team number one getting an invite. Therefore the notion of a Catholic league is out the door. The best long term candidates happen to be private catholic schools. If UConn never upgraded it's FB they would be right there with us. If we were looking for catholic only we would be adding Duesquene (SP?) and Holy Cross. The addition of Richmond would also show that it is not the idea to go all catholic schools. Also most people don't know that Dayton is a Catholic school. I certainly didn't until i learned more about the potential members. Same can be said for St. Louis, most prob think they are the same as Pitt or Cincy. Just another City school.

Also, people will watch good BBall. Is someone really turned off to watch GTown play St. John's or Villanova? No so why would this be a turn off to any BBall fan? Also these schools are not exclusively catholic. Im not Catholic and one of my frat brothers was muslim. These schools are very diverse.

Why do you think Butler is getting the first call?

It's not going to be a Catholic league so we need to stop calling it one.

(02-09-2013 12:33 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 11:54 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 11:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  So as a follow up to the cultural fit argument, lets debate whether being a Catholic league helps or hurts. If the invites are as expected and VCU is excluded the league will be perceived as a Catholic only league.

Will that help or hurt viewership nationally? You would have some appeal to a religious based niche which Notre Dame and BYU have leveraged successfully but will it work for a league like it does for a school? Is that niche big enough to support Notre Dame and the league? Will the appeal of the league bring Notre dame back? And lastly, does Butler come under this model as they would clearly be typecast as a Catholic school also when they are not?

Butler is team number one getting an invite. Therefore the notion of a Catholic league is out the door. The best long term candidates happen to be private catholic schools. If UConn never upgraded it's FB they would be right there with us. If we were looking for catholic only we would be adding Duesquene (SP?) and Holy Cross. The addition of Richmond would also show that it is not the idea to go all catholic schools. Also most people don't know that Dayton is a Catholic school. I certainly didn't until i learned more about the potential members. Same can be said for St. Louis, most prob think they are the same as Pitt or Cincy. Just another City school.

Also, people will watch good BBall. Is someone really turned off to watch GTown play St. John's or Villanova? No so why would this be a turn off to any BBall fan? Also these schools are not exclusively catholic. Im not Catholic and one of my frat brothers was muslim. These schools are very diverse.

Why do you think Butler is getting the first call?

Because they are the best team to add. Sorry.

Oh and the weekend after we announced we were headed in a new direction Butler beat the #1 team in the country on national TV.

(02-09-2013 12:35 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:33 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 11:54 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 11:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  So as a follow up to the cultural fit argument, lets debate whether being a Catholic league helps or hurts. If the invites are as expected and VCU is excluded the league will be perceived as a Catholic only league.

Will that help or hurt viewership nationally? You would have some appeal to a religious based niche which Notre Dame and BYU have leveraged successfully but will it work for a league like it does for a school? Is that niche big enough to support Notre Dame and the league? Will the appeal of the league bring Notre dame back? And lastly, does Butler come under this model as they would clearly be typecast as a Catholic school also when they are not?

Butler is team number one getting an invite. Therefore the notion of a Catholic league is out the door. The best long term candidates happen to be private catholic schools. If UConn never upgraded it's FB they would be right there with us. If we were looking for catholic only we would be adding Duesquene (SP?) and Holy Cross. The addition of Richmond would also show that it is not the idea to go all catholic schools. Also most people don't know that Dayton is a Catholic school. I certainly didn't until i learned more about the potential members. Same can be said for St. Louis, most prob think they are the same as Pitt or Cincy. Just another City school.

Also, people will watch good BBall. Is someone really turned off to watch GTown play St. John's or Villanova? No so why would this be a turn off to any BBall fan? Also these schools are not exclusively catholic. Im not Catholic and one of my frat brothers was muslim. These schools are very diverse.

Why do you think Butler is getting the first call?

Because they are the best team to add. Sorry.

Oh and the weekend after we announced we were headed in a new direction Butler beat the #1 team in the country on national TV.

Fair enough. I think you're wrong, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I honestly believe, as a former Butler Assistant (not basketball), they are going to have to recruit better at certain positions, spend more money on their Olympic sports, and improve their facilities. It's a great school that's had a lot of success in the last 3 out the 4 years. However, X has facilities, fan support, and more sustained success. Heck, we beat them 3 out of the last 4 years (including this year) and we are very young.

(02-09-2013 12:46 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:35 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:33 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 11:54 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 11:25 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  So as a follow up to the cultural fit argument, lets debate whether being a Catholic league helps or hurts. If the invites are as expected and VCU is excluded the league will be perceived as a Catholic only league.

Will that help or hurt viewership nationally? You would have some appeal to a religious based niche which Notre Dame and BYU have leveraged successfully but will it work for a league like it does for a school? Is that niche big enough to support Notre Dame and the league? Will the appeal of the league bring Notre dame back? And lastly, does Butler come under this model as they would clearly be typecast as a Catholic school also when they are not?

Butler is team number one getting an invite. Therefore the notion of a Catholic league is out the door. The best long term candidates happen to be private catholic schools. If UConn never upgraded it's FB they would be right there with us. If we were looking for catholic only we would be adding Duesquene (SP?) and Holy Cross. The addition of Richmond would also show that it is not the idea to go all catholic schools. Also most people don't know that Dayton is a Catholic school. I certainly didn't until i learned more about the potential members. Same can be said for St. Louis, most prob think they are the same as Pitt or Cincy. Just another City school.

Also, people will watch good BBall. Is someone really turned off to watch GTown play St. John's or Villanova? No so why would this be a turn off to any BBall fan? Also these schools are not exclusively catholic. Im not Catholic and one of my frat brothers was muslim. These schools are very diverse.

Why do you think Butler is getting the first call?

Because they are the best team to add. Sorry.

Oh and the weekend after we announced we were headed in a new direction Butler beat the #1 team in the country on national TV.

Fair enough. I think you're wrong, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I honestly believe, as a former Butler Assistant (not basketball), they are going to have to recruit better at certain positions, spend more money on their Olympic sports, and improve their facilities. It's a great school that's had a lot of success in the last 3 out the 4 years. However, X has facilities, fan support, and more sustained success. Heck, we beat them 3 out of the last 4 years (including this year) and we are very young.

True I would agree Butler will have to invest more although I think they will with more revenue. Also those that think Butler or Richmond would dispel the belief it is a Catholic are incorrect. The image of the league is already strongly that of a Catholic league. Adding a school that looks exactly like a Catholic school wont dispel that image. More likely the average person will assume Butler is Catholic. So you can't dismiss the we won't seem like a Catholic league because we invited Butler.

I think it's a limitation. We're not going to pick up Catholics who aren't basketball fans. So I don't see how sending exclusionary signals to non-Catholic basketball fans makes sense.

It's one thing if we stop at 10 teams, with VCU as one of several candidates left out. It looks different if we go to 12, and VCU is the only candidate left out. Especially since VCU seems like they will continue to be a factor.

Let's think of some very basic marketing, and factor in snarky answers. "BIG EAST: Where Basketball Lives" Yeah, if you're Catholic. It makes a big difference to fan appeal if we are known as "the basketball conference" or "the Catholic conference."

Will this make or break the league? No. Neither will securing rights to the name, but it's important.

(02-09-2013 01:02 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:46 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:35 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:33 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 11:54 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Butler is team number one getting an invite. Therefore the notion of a Catholic league is out the door. The best long term candidates happen to be private catholic schools. If UConn never upgraded it's FB they would be right there with us. If we were looking for catholic only we would be adding Duesquene (SP?) and Holy Cross. The addition of Richmond would also show that it is not the idea to go all catholic schools. Also most people don't know that Dayton is a Catholic school. I certainly didn't until i learned more about the potential members. Same can be said for St. Louis, most prob think they are the same as Pitt or Cincy. Just another City school.

Also, people will watch good BBall. Is someone really turned off to watch GTown play St. John's or Villanova? No so why would this be a turn off to any BBall fan? Also these schools are not exclusively catholic. Im not Catholic and one of my frat brothers was muslim. These schools are very diverse.

Why do you think Butler is getting the first call?

Because they are the best team to add. Sorry.

Oh and the weekend after we announced we were headed in a new direction Butler beat the #1 team in the country on national TV.

Fair enough. I think you're wrong, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I honestly believe, as a former Butler Assistant (not basketball), they are going to have to recruit better at certain positions, spend more money on their Olympic sports, and improve their facilities. It's a great school that's had a lot of success in the last 3 out the 4 years. However, X has facilities, fan support, and more sustained success. Heck, we beat them 3 out of the last 4 years (including this year) and we are very young.

True I would agree Butler will have to invest more although I think they will with more revenue. Also those that think Butler or Richmond would dispel the belief it is a Catholic are incorrect. The image of the league is already strongly that of a Catholic league. Adding a school that looks exactly like a Catholic school wont dispel that image. More likely the average person will assume Butler is Catholic. So you can't dismiss the we won't seem like a Catholic league because we invited Butler.

Well then in that case VCU wont change that perception either so no matter what we do short of adding UConn and Penn St will change the perception.

Also why is it a bad perception that we are all private schools? Why is that a bad thing? Non-catholics root for Gtown and ND. Why do people think non-catholics will be turned off or upset about our league?

no matter what schools are added the new league will be perceived as a Catholic league. Having one non private school wont change that.
Why would that be a problem, yet the "land grant" league of the B1G or the SEC southern state "diploma " mill schools arent?

(02-09-2013 01:22 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Also why is it a bad perception that we are all private schools? Why is that a bad thing? Non-catholics root for Gtown and ND. Why do people think non-catholics will be turned off or upset about our league?

We've never been known before as a "Catholic conference." That's a change.

It's a bad perception if we're turning down a very good candidate because they're a non-Catholic, public school. It only matters if VCU gets left out and stays good. That really weakens our narrative that we're the conference that's about basketball, which weakens our appeal to non-Catholic hoopheads. Which is an important media constituency, and a fanbase that we're counting on long-term, beyond the current TV contract.

(02-09-2013 01:21 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  I think it's a limitation. We're not going to pick up Catholics who aren't basketball fans. So I don't see how sending exclusionary signals to non-Catholic basketball fans makes sense.

It's one thing if we stop at 10 teams, with VCU as one of several candidates left out. It looks different if we go to 12, and VCU is the only candidate left out. Especially since VCU seems like they will continue to be a factor.

Let's think of some very basic marketing, and factor in snarky answers. "BIG EAST: Where Basketball Lives" Yeah, if you're Catholic. It makes a big difference to fan appeal if we are known as "the basketball conference" or "the Catholic conference."

Will this make or break the league? No. Neither will securing rights to the name, but it's important.

Do people know that Dayton and St. Louis are Catholic or do they think they are city schools like Cincy or memphis? I think most like myself first think the latter. I didn't know Dayton was catholic until we started talking a lot about them.

Also VCU will not get rid of that belief. Many might think VCU stands for Virginia Christian like TCU.

We will be known as the basketball conference. People don't care if we are catholic or not. Did people care when the league was 85% catholic in the 80's? If UConn who stunk in the 80's was replaced by Temple would we have been shunned as a private catholic league? No, because we were good and thats all anyone cares about.

(02-09-2013 01:22 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:02 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:46 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:35 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 12:33 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  Why do you think Butler is getting the first call?

Because they are the best team to add. Sorry.

Oh and the weekend after we announced we were headed in a new direction Butler beat the #1 team in the country on national TV.

Fair enough. I think you're wrong, but everyone is entitled to their opinion. I honestly believe, as a former Butler Assistant (not basketball), they are going to have to recruit better at certain positions, spend more money on their Olympic sports, and improve their facilities. It's a great school that's had a lot of success in the last 3 out the 4 years. However, X has facilities, fan support, and more sustained success. Heck, we beat them 3 out of the last 4 years (including this year) and we are very young.

True I would agree Butler will have to invest more although I think they will with more revenue. Also those that think Butler or Richmond would dispel the belief it is a Catholic are incorrect. The image of the league is already strongly that of a Catholic league. Adding a school that looks exactly like a Catholic school wont dispel that image. More likely the average person will assume Butler is Catholic. So you can't dismiss the we won't seem like a Catholic league because we invited Butler.

Well then in that case VCU wont change that perception either so no matter what we do short of adding UConn and Penn St will change the perception.

Also why is it a bad perception that we are all private schools? Why is that a bad thing? Non-catholics root for Gtown and ND. Why do people think non-catholics will be turned off or upset about our league?

A VCU, UMass or Wichita State would clearly signal it isn't just a Catholic league. This approach by the way is closer to Gavitt's original model. I think more people have a rooting interest if they have a team the can relate to in some manner. That equates to more viewers which equates to more TV dollars. That reason is why I would add Wichita State and VCU before Dayton and St. Louis. That priority doesn't mean I think UD and St Louis are bad adds. Personally I would go to 14.

I'm not Catholic (was when i was 6) but I went to a Catholic university for the quality of education. I did not want to go to a state school where I'd be sitting down with 80 other students listening to a lecture.

I still don't see VCU making the cut unless we go to 12 or possibly 14. The C-7 are not going to be basing their decision on the additions just because of one man (Shaka). We put Butler as the main school because of one guy and his success (Brad) but it also helps that the school fits the model better than VCU. I'd still be iffy about the Richmond addition unless they show some commitment into their BBall program.

(02-09-2013 01:28 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:22 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Also why is it a bad perception that we are all private schools? Why is that a bad thing? Non-catholics root for Gtown and ND. Why do people think non-catholics will be turned off or upset about our league?

We've never been known before as a "Catholic conference." That's a change.

It's a bad perception if we're turning down a very good candidate because they're a non-Catholic, public school. It only matters if VCU gets left out and stays good. That really weakens our narrative that we're the conference that's about basketball, which weakens our appeal to non-Catholic hoopheads. Which is an important media constituency, and a fanbase that we're counting on long-term, beyond the current TV contract.

IF VCU stays good, maybe they wont. I think people are putting too much importance on how vcu might be perceived. I still think that very few people that are well versed in things college BB will say "if only the c7 invited vcu they would be a good league. Its a shame they went with team "y" things would be so much better" they are not penn st.

Will VCU be as successful if they are left behind in an A10 that doesnt include: Temple,Charlotte,Xavier,Butler,Dayton, St. Louis and perhaps UMass? They may dominate the league but will their recruiting suffer? Maybe someone else steps it up. (lasalle, fordham st joes st bonnie?)

(02-09-2013 01:37 PM)ivet Wrote:  I'm not Catholic (was when i was 6) but I went to a Catholic university for the quality of education. I did not want to go to a state school where I'd be sitting down with 80 other students listening to a lecture.

I still don't see VCU making the cut unless we go to 12 or possibly 14. The C-7 are not going to be basing their decision on the additions just because of one man (Shaka). We put Butler as the main school because of one guy and his success (Brad) but it also helps that the school fits the model better than VCU. I'd still be iffy about the Richmond addition unless they show some commitment into their BBall program.

Thats what i'm trying to tell people. I'm not catholic, never was and i went to a catholic university. Hell one of my frat brothers was Muslim!

(02-09-2013 01:28 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  no matter what schools are added the new league will be perceived as a Catholic league. Having one non private school wont change that.
Why would that be a problem, yet the "land grant" league of the B1G or the SEC southern state "diploma " mill schools arent?

It's may or may not be good or bad. The question is what niche are you appealing to and is that niche big enough to sustain the league. The SEC appeals to the South. That might almost call it the confederacy conference. It is a niche that they have built off of. The base is plenty large enough to sustain the league. The Big 10 is largely State Flagship schools in the Midwest. The schools largely represent and symbolize their states. Again it is a sustainable niche.

The C-7 currently have the Catholic Basketball league as their niche. Is it sustainable? Don't know that is why I asked. Nothing in the apparent invites will change that image.

(02-09-2013 01:47 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:28 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  no matter what schools are added the new league will be perceived as a Catholic league. Having one non private school wont change that.
Why would that be a problem, yet the "land grant" league of the B1G or the SEC southern state "diploma " mill schools arent?

It's may or may not be good or bad. The question is what niche are you appealing to and is that niche big enough to sustain the league. The SEC appeals to the South. That might almost call it the confederacy conference. It is a niche that they have built off of. The base is plenty large enough to sustain the league. The Big 10 is largely State Flagship schools in the Midwest. The schools largely represent and symbolize their states. Again it is a sustainable niche.

The C-7 currently have the Catholic Basketball league as their niche. Is it sustainable? Don't know that is why I asked. Nothing in the apparent invites will change that image.

Uh yes. We aren't just catholic, we are representing our cities. Big cities like bball, we are the big city league.

(02-09-2013 01:47 PM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-09-2013 01:28 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  no matter what schools are added the new league will be perceived as a Catholic league. Having one non private school wont change that.
Why would that be a problem, yet the "land grant" league of the B1G or the SEC southern state "diploma " mill schools arent?

It's may or may not be good or bad. The question is what niche are you appealing to and is that niche big enough to sustain the league. The SEC appeals to the South. That might almost call it the confederacy conference. It is a niche that they have built off of. The base is plenty large enough to sustain the league. The Big 10 is largely State Flagship schools in the Midwest. The schools largely represent and symbolize their states. Again it is a sustainable niche.

The C-7 currently have the Catholic Basketball league as their niche. Is it sustainable? Don't know that is why I asked. Nothing in the apparent invites will change that image.

Good basketball is a Niche? I think you're over-thinking this whole Catholic thing. People watch and respect the SEC because they have great football. Heck I'm from Northern California and was stationed in Southern Georgia for 3 years, I hated every minute of it especially the "Southern" Mentality but I still watch SEC football because it's great. I was rooting Alabama when they played Notre Dame (because I despise ND).

I'm beginning to think your whole view on this "Catholic" thing is pretty ignorant. Did I read before that your daughter is at Butler? Why did you send her there? Why didn't you send her to Sac State or any other State school in California?