(02-01-2013 09:08 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:38 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:04 AM)stever20 Wrote:  to me- this kind of proves my point...

VCU would probably be like #2 or 3 on the list this year instead of 11 Dayton.... *who id probably have below DePaul even

No, they wouldn't.

looking at the polls, VCU would be right with Marquette and Georgetown- it'd be personal preference for 2-4 spots(err, actually 3-5 spots, Creighton would be ahead of all 3). Butler only team in top 24 though.

As a Xavier (private, metropolitan, Jesuit) fan, I don't understand the reasoning behind preferring Dayton to VCU or Richmond (especially VCU). What makes more sense in selecting a 12th member of the new Conference? ---
UD is a program that sits 12,000 - 13,000 fannies in the stands for most home games, seldom gets to the NCAA Tourney, even more seldomly makes any waves in the NCAA Tourney, has a fine commitment to its "money" program (Men's Basketball), shares a "metroplex/media area" with another potential member of the new conference, and is a smallish (10,000+ students) private institution.
VCU is a program that sells out its decent-sized arena year-after-year, does well annually in its Conference standings, gets to the NCAA and actually gets beyond one-and-done status, has a fine commitment to its "money" program (Men's Basketball), would not share its metro area and media center with a fellow member of the Conference, and is a public institution that has roughly three times as many students as UD.

So, UD trumps VCU on gameday attendance and is private. VCU trumps UD in every other aspect of the comparison and also has the advantage of providing the other five eastern members with a 6th partner in an Eastern Division of a 12-team Conference.

(02-01-2013 11:12 AM)muskienick Wrote:  So, UD trumps VCU on gameday attendance and is private. VCU trumps UD in every other aspect of the comparison and also has the advantage of providing the other five eastern members with a 6th partner in an Eastern Division of a 12-team Conference.

Even though I'd take VCU over Dayton any day of the week, I'll give the argument for Dayton.

Dayton's attendance and decades-long history of competitiveness, (always just in or just out of the tournament) means that, with the Big East recruiting boost, they're positioned to break out and have great success.

Another factor may be that people have been making private lists for a decade of who would be "in" if the Big East ever split, and Dayton and Xaiver have always been in that discussion while VCU just came on people's radar in 2011.

I don't think east coast vs west coast geography is much of a factor. Dayton metro vs state of Virginia is more relevant, though. VCU gets in the Big East and stays hot, they could easily be the premier college team in Virginia, putting U-VA, VT, ODU, Mason and Richmond in the shade. Dayton gets in and gets hot, they're still behind Ohio State and competing with Xavier and Cincinnati.

Damn, I was supposed to be giving the PRO Dayton case.

Guys we have a TON of threads about the future configuration of the league. Can we PLEASE just stay in topic?

(02-01-2013 11:12 AM)muskienick Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 09:08 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:38 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:04 AM)stever20 Wrote:  to me- this kind of proves my point...

VCU would probably be like #2 or 3 on the list this year instead of 11 Dayton.... *who id probably have below DePaul even

No, they wouldn't.

looking at the polls, VCU would be right with Marquette and Georgetown- it'd be personal preference for 2-4 spots(err, actually 3-5 spots, Creighton would be ahead of all 3). Butler only team in top 24 though.

As a Xavier (private, metropolitan, Jesuit) fan, I don't understand the reasoning behind preferring Dayton to VCU or Richmond (especially VCU). What makes more sense in selecting a 12th member of the new Conference? ---
UD is a program that sits 12,000 - 13,000 fannies in the stands for most home games, seldom gets to the NCAA Tourney, even more seldomly makes any waves in the NCAA Tourney, has a fine commitment to its "money" program (Men's Basketball), shares a "metroplex/media area" with another potential member of the new conference, and is a smallish (10,000+ students) private institution.
VCU is a program that sells out its decent-sized arena year-after-year, does well annually in its Conference standings, gets to the NCAA and actually gets beyond one-and-done status, has a fine commitment to its "money" program (Men's Basketball), would not share its metro area and media center with a fellow member of the Conference, and is a public institution that has roughly three times as many students as UD.

So, UD trumps VCU on gameday attendance and is private. VCU trumps UD in every other aspect of the comparison and also has the advantage of providing the other five eastern members with a 6th partner in an Eastern Division of a 12-team Conference.

A few things. I agree that the market overlap is a concern, and at least to me the best argument against Dayton. But when you started summarizing the advantages and disadvantages at the end you left out some key info.

UD doesnt just trump VCU in gameday appearance, they trump them in overall commitment and support to their basketball and athletics. UD also has a stronger alumni base, better academics and are proving right now that they will continue to support their program even in down years (Yes, VCU will have down years if they join this league, probably many).

Also, VCU got past the one-and-done NCAA status ONCE. You can't call something regular if you've only done it once.

(02-01-2013 12:22 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 11:12 AM)muskienick Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 09:08 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:38 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:04 AM)stever20 Wrote:  to me- this kind of proves my point...

VCU would probably be like #2 or 3 on the list this year instead of 11 Dayton.... *who id probably have below DePaul even

No, they wouldn't.

looking at the polls, VCU would be right with Marquette and Georgetown- it'd be personal preference for 2-4 spots(err, actually 3-5 spots, Creighton would be ahead of all 3). Butler only team in top 24 though.

As a Xavier (private, metropolitan, Jesuit) fan, I don't understand the reasoning behind preferring Dayton to VCU or Richmond (especially VCU). What makes more sense in selecting a 12th member of the new Conference? ---
UD is a program that sits 12,000 - 13,000 fannies in the stands for most home games, seldom gets to the NCAA Tourney, even more seldomly makes any waves in the NCAA Tourney, has a fine commitment to its "money" program (Men's Basketball), shares a "metroplex/media area" with another potential member of the new conference, and is a smallish (10,000+ students) private institution.
VCU is a program that sells out its decent-sized arena year-after-year, does well annually in its Conference standings, gets to the NCAA and actually gets beyond one-and-done status, has a fine commitment to its "money" program (Men's Basketball), would not share its metro area and media center with a fellow member of the Conference, and is a public institution that has roughly three times as many students as UD.

So, UD trumps VCU on gameday attendance and is private. VCU trumps UD in every other aspect of the comparison and also has the advantage of providing the other five eastern members with a 6th partner in an Eastern Division of a 12-team Conference.

A few things. I agree that the market overlap is a concern, and at least to me the best argument against Dayton. But when you started summarizing the advantages and disadvantages at the end you left out some key info.

UD doesnt just trump VCU in gameday appearance, they trump them in overall commitment and support to their basketball and athletics. UD also has a stronger alumni base, better academics and are proving right now that they will continue to support their program even in down years (Yes, VCU will have down years if they join this league, probably many).

Also, VCU got past the one-and-done NCAA status ONCE. You can't call something regular if you've only done it once.

I should have left the UD case to someone who wants UD.

(02-01-2013 11:30 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Guys we have a TON of threads about the future configuration of the league. Can we PLEASE just stay in topic?

Well now I just look like a crazy person!

VCU has gotten past the one and done NCAA status 3 times in the last 6 years. Datyon 2 times in the last 25 years. SLU 3 times in the last 17 years. I'd say VCU is a lot more regular. Might want to actually you know look up facts before you start posting stuff as facts.

(02-01-2013 12:27 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:22 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 11:12 AM)muskienick Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 09:08 AM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:38 AM)aughnanure Wrote:  No, they wouldn't.

looking at the polls, VCU would be right with Marquette and Georgetown- it'd be personal preference for 2-4 spots(err, actually 3-5 spots, Creighton would be ahead of all 3). Butler only team in top 24 though.

As a Xavier (private, metropolitan, Jesuit) fan, I don't understand the reasoning behind preferring Dayton to VCU or Richmond (especially VCU). What makes more sense in selecting a 12th member of the new Conference? ---
UD is a program that sits 12,000 - 13,000 fannies in the stands for most home games, seldom gets to the NCAA Tourney, even more seldomly makes any waves in the NCAA Tourney, has a fine commitment to its "money" program (Men's Basketball), shares a "metroplex/media area" with another potential member of the new conference, and is a smallish (10,000+ students) private institution.
VCU is a program that sells out its decent-sized arena year-after-year, does well annually in its Conference standings, gets to the NCAA and actually gets beyond one-and-done status, has a fine commitment to its "money" program (Men's Basketball), would not share its metro area and media center with a fellow member of the Conference, and is a public institution that has roughly three times as many students as UD.

So, UD trumps VCU on gameday attendance and is private. VCU trumps UD in every other aspect of the comparison and also has the advantage of providing the other five eastern members with a 6th partner in an Eastern Division of a 12-team Conference.

A few things. I agree that the market overlap is a concern, and at least to me the best argument against Dayton. But when you started summarizing the advantages and disadvantages at the end you left out some key info.

UD doesnt just trump VCU in gameday appearance, they trump them in overall commitment and support to their basketball and athletics. UD also has a stronger alumni base, better academics and are proving right now that they will continue to support their program even in down years (Yes, VCU will have down years if they join this league, probably many).

Also, VCU got past the one-and-done NCAA status ONCE. You can't call something regular if you've only done it once.

I should have left the UD case to someone who wants UD.

I can be turned on Dayton, just not SLU. The market overlap is kinda annoying and is a concern. Wish Richmond or Davidson were more attractive.

(02-01-2013 12:28 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 11:30 AM)NJRedMan Wrote:  Guys we have a TON of threads about the future configuration of the league. Can we PLEASE just stay in topic?

Well now I just look like a crazy person!

I agree

(02-01-2013 12:31 PM)stever20 Wrote:  VCU has gotten past the one and done NCAA status 3 times in the last 6 years. Datyon 2 times in the last 25 years. SLU 3 times in the last 17 years. I'd say VCU is a lot more regular. Might want to actually you know look up facts before you start posting stuff as facts.

Uhh no, they haven't. They've only gotten to the second weekend once. Winning a play-in game doesn't mean you avoid being one and done, it means you are now in the actual tournament.

(02-01-2013 12:32 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:31 PM)stever20 Wrote:  VCU has gotten past the one and done NCAA status 3 times in the last 6 years. Datyon 2 times in the last 25 years. SLU 3 times in the last 17 years. I'd say VCU is a lot more regular. Might want to actually you know look up facts before you start posting stuff as facts.

Uhh no, they haven't. They've only gotten to the second weekend once. Winning a play-in game doesn't mean you avoid being one and done, it means you are now in the actual tournament.

Uhh yes, they have...
2007 they BEAT DUKE
2011 they made final 4
2012 they beat Wichita St

That is 3 times in 6 years..... one and done means losing in the 1st(err, 2nd now) round of the tournament.....

(02-01-2013 12:38 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:32 PM)aughnanure Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 12:31 PM)stever20 Wrote:  VCU has gotten past the one and done NCAA status 3 times in the last 6 years. Datyon 2 times in the last 25 years. SLU 3 times in the last 17 years. I'd say VCU is a lot more regular. Might want to actually you know look up facts before you start posting stuff as facts.

Uhh no, they haven't. They've only gotten to the second weekend once. Winning a play-in game doesn't mean you avoid being one and done, it means you are now in the actual tournament.

Uhh yes, they have...
2007 they BEAT DUKE
2011 they made final 4
2012 they beat Wichita St

That is 3 times in 6 years..... one and done means losing in the 1st(err, 2nd now) round of the tournament.....

Both sides are right. In 2007 and 2012, VCU was not one-and-done, BUT they did not make the second weekend. Round of 32 is neither one-and-done nor second weekend.

Which brings us back 'round the mulberry bush to VCU making one tournament run in recent memory vs Creighton, SLU and Dayton combined making none, VCU having 5 NCAA appearances in the last 10 years vs 4 for Creighton, 3 for Dayton and 1 for SLU, etc.

The real question isn't what we want or think but what the presidents want or think. When it comes to that and all assuming we go to 12 which reportedly Fox wants, Butler, Xavier and Creighton are locks. Dayton from what we've heard from multiple sources are near definite adds. So there is one spot that the presidents aren't 100% sold on yet. SLU currently is the leader but VCU has been making up ground.

(02-01-2013 01:27 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  The real question isn't what we want or think but what the presidents want or think. When it comes to that and all assuming we go to 12 which reportedly Fox wants, Butler, Xavier and Creighton are locks. Dayton from what we've heard from multiple sources are near definite adds. So there is one spot that the presidents aren't 100% sold on yet. SLU currently is the leader but VCU has been making up ground.

I'd be willing to venture a guess that Fox would have some suggestions for the teams to include as well and that would have a good deal of impact to things as well. Probably a lot more than you would think.

Since Dayton seems to be taking a beating here, lets put a few things in perspective. First of all Dayton kicked their starting center off the team just days before the start of this season. There were rumors of an assault against a coed, and although no police charges were filed, the school thought there was enough evidence to warrant a dismissal from the team. In an era where most schools will overlook nearly everything, and do all they can to sweep scandals under the carpet, it is refreshing to see a school finally do the right thing. Dayton has lost two games this year by one point and another two by two points. They missed a game tying three against Xavier (that was half way down) with one second to go, despite being outrebounded 36-18 and giving up 35 second chance points. It's not unreasonable at all to assume that had they had their starting center, all five of those games might easily have been wins. Although Xavier has that long winning streak in Cinci, Dayton has won plenty of times at UD, and bounced Xavier out of the A10 tournament in Atlantic City a few years ago. Dayton also still leads the all time Xavier series by 10 games, even with the streak. Of all the schools in the potential new league, there is no one that provides a more exciting game day environment than UD, and thats a big part of what makes great television. With the boost in recruiting dayton would get from the new league, they could easily establish themselves as one of the teams that consistently resides in the upper half of the standings. So while this may be a disappointing year for Dayton basketball so far, they should still remain as one of the primary teams in the discussion. Also their other sports aren't bad, reigning A10 baseball champs, women volleyball ranked all year. Womans basketball currently ranked 17, mens and womens soccer always good. They definitely would be a huge asset to the new conference.

(02-01-2013 01:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:27 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  The real question isn't what we want or think but what the presidents want or think. When it comes to that and all assuming we go to 12 which reportedly Fox wants, Butler, Xavier and Creighton are locks. Dayton from what we've heard from multiple sources are near definite adds. So there is one spot that the presidents aren't 100% sold on yet. SLU currently is the leader but VCU has been making up ground.

I'd be willing to venture a guess that Fox would have some suggestions for the teams to include as well and that would have a good deal of impact to things as well. Probably a lot more than you would think.

Yes they would, like the major tv market in St. Louis.

(02-01-2013 01:45 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:27 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  The real question isn't what we want or think but what the presidents want or think. When it comes to that and all assuming we go to 12 which reportedly Fox wants, Butler, Xavier and Creighton are locks. Dayton from what we've heard from multiple sources are near definite adds. So there is one spot that the presidents aren't 100% sold on yet. SLU currently is the leader but VCU has been making up ground.

I'd be willing to venture a guess that Fox would have some suggestions for the teams to include as well and that would have a good deal of impact to things as well. Probably a lot more than you would think.

Yes they would, like the major tv market in St. Louis.

It'd be interesting to see how they would view VCU/Dayton. I know they've been having problems with CSN-Washington and MASN- right now, FSN doesn't air in DC.

(02-01-2013 01:47 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:45 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:27 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  The real question isn't what we want or think but what the presidents want or think. When it comes to that and all assuming we go to 12 which reportedly Fox wants, Butler, Xavier and Creighton are locks. Dayton from what we've heard from multiple sources are near definite adds. So there is one spot that the presidents aren't 100% sold on yet. SLU currently is the leader but VCU has been making up ground.

I'd be willing to venture a guess that Fox would have some suggestions for the teams to include as well and that would have a good deal of impact to things as well. Probably a lot more than you would think.

Yes they would, like the major tv market in St. Louis.

It'd be interesting to see how they would view VCU/Dayton. I know they've been having problems with CSN-Washington and MASN- right now, FSN doesn't air in DC.

I think their Washington DC problems are a lot more temporary than the C-7 contract will be. There are regular denials that MASN will sell, but the MASN-Orioles-Nationals situation is a mess, Fox is clearly in the market for RSNs, and they aren't buying CSN-Washington. Most of the MASN area has MASN and MASN-2, so Fox could buy one of the channels and the Washington Nationals' TV rights and go from there. With or without VCU, Big East hoops would fill a lot of winter airtime on FSN-MidAtlantic.

(02-01-2013 02:11 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:47 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:45 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:27 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  The real question isn't what we want or think but what the presidents want or think. When it comes to that and all assuming we go to 12 which reportedly Fox wants, Butler, Xavier and Creighton are locks. Dayton from what we've heard from multiple sources are near definite adds. So there is one spot that the presidents aren't 100% sold on yet. SLU currently is the leader but VCU has been making up ground.

I'd be willing to venture a guess that Fox would have some suggestions for the teams to include as well and that would have a good deal of impact to things as well. Probably a lot more than you would think.

Yes they would, like the major tv market in St. Louis.

It'd be interesting to see how they would view VCU/Dayton. I know they've been having problems with CSN-Washington and MASN- right now, FSN doesn't air in DC.

I think their Washington DC problems are a lot more temporary than the C-7 contract will be. There are regular denials that MASN will sell, but the MASN-Orioles-Nationals situation is a mess, Fox is clearly in the market for RSNs, and they aren't buying CSN-Washington. Most of the MASN area has MASN and MASN-2, so Fox could buy one of the channels and the Washington Nationals' TV rights and go from there. With or without VCU, Big East hoops would fill a lot of winter airtime on FSN-MidAtlantic.

I could easily see that. Hopefully Fox does do just that. With VCU- you get even more exposure in the Richmond area which helps as well. VCU expands the footprint slightly south.

(02-01-2013 01:47 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:45 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:32 PM)stever20 Wrote:  

(02-01-2013 01:27 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  The real question isn't what we want or think but what the presidents want or think. When it comes to that and all assuming we go to 12 which reportedly Fox wants, Butler, Xavier and Creighton are locks. Dayton from what we've heard from multiple sources are near definite adds. So there is one spot that the presidents aren't 100% sold on yet. SLU currently is the leader but VCU has been making up ground.

I'd be willing to venture a guess that Fox would have some suggestions for the teams to include as well and that would have a good deal of impact to things as well. Probably a lot more than you would think.

Yes they would, like the major tv market in St. Louis.

It'd be interesting to see how they would view VCU/Dayton. I know they've been having problems with CSN-Washington and MASN- right now, FSN doesn't air in DC.

My guess is that Fox would likely want SLU > VCU > Dayton if it came down to that choice. I think SLU is much more important to Fox than people are giving them credit for (especially if the league is bringing in Creighton, which creates synergies in a region where Fox is able to bundle its FSN Midwest with Fox Sports 1) and why if there is going to be a private school left out in favor of VCU, then I have a hard time seeing the TV people advocating Dayton instead of SLU. Dayton likely doesn't move the needle enough nationally and is too close to Xavier geographically to add as much TV-wise.

That's purely from a TV perspective. If we're talking about a personal connection perspective (e.g. presidents and other administrators) with the C7, Dayton may very well be above SLU and is certainly above VCU. That *shouldn't* matter, but we can't be naive to think that it doesn't matter at all. That's my guess as to why so many people seem to be under the impression that Dayton is a heavy favorite to get in with a 12-team league.