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Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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Post: #1
Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
Just my random and (warning) long thoughts on why UB 2020 should spill over to make Buffalo one of the better funded and equipped athletic departments in the MAC.

http://www.ubbullrun.com/2013/1/25/39149...crossroads

--

Thanks as always to Hillbilly who has a nose for finding this stuff!


Several times in UB's history the school has seen it's Athletic department come to a crossroads. Typically they have made the wrong decision and that's why UB, an AAU member and state co-flagship, is the last such institution sitting in the ranks of the mid majors.

In 1903 the University of Buffalo was a small private medical school starting to grow other programs. The school was 10 years into their football experiment and had produced a team which was beginning to turn heads. They were strong the Syracuse, Hobart, Rochester, and most of the other upstate schools.

Then interest waned and the program dropped until 1915. UB Missed a chance to entrench themselves in the emerging Western New York sports culture while schools like Syracuse grew.

Fast forward to 1960. Buffalo, now a full fledged public university, was officially moving to the major level of college football. in the late 50's they were one of the best small school programs in the nation. Winning the Lambert Cup in 58 and coming in second in 1959.

As the campus and the school grew the anti establishment culture caused student push back, interest waned, the program was dropped in 1970,. This time UB missed out on a key era of conference formation and consolidation.

It took an amazing effort by too many to mention in one post to bring UB athletics back from the grave. From division III to division one in two decades, and back to major college football by the time the Millennium changed.

That rush to make up ground left UB underfunded and unprepared for the level of competition they would be facing. They spent their first years in the Mid American conference flailing about and in the process becoming a punchline among college football fans.

In 2008 UB righted a 50 year injustice by going to the International Bowl and bringing the surviving members of the 1958 team to the party. In 1958 the Bulls turned down a bowl invitation because their African American players would not be able to participate.

That same year the mens basketball team, led by Rodney Pierce, tied Bowling Green for the regular season conference title and lost to Akron in the conference title game.

That should have been our "small step for a man" moment. That kind of season, seven or more wins and a bowl game, should have been set as the minimum bar. Athletic Director Warde Manuel tried to set that bar when he was hired in 2005. Manuel stressed to the school that if they wanted to be division one they needed to start acting like it.

...

Continued
01-25-2013 12:17 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
Nice to see actual dollars put into the conversation.
01-25-2013 12:24 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-25-2013 12:24 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Nice to see actual dollars put into the conversation.

Something tells me white knows what he is going to get but thats just a guess on my part.

Hard to commit to having the field house done in four years and better luxury boxes done sooner unless you have something to base that on.
01-25-2013 12:25 PM
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emu steve Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
RE: Football

There are 3 FBS teams in N.Y. (UB, Syracuse and Army).

Syracuse plays in their dome. The weather up at West Point seems agreeable through October. Buffalo less so.

Can UB make it big with their existing stadium, which I think ranks lowly among MAC stadia?

Can UB extensively renovate or out and out replace their stadium?

Could UB ever build a 30K dome stadium?
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 12:48 PM by emu steve.)
01-29-2013 12:47 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-29-2013 12:47 PM)emu steve Wrote:  RE: Football

There are 3 FBS teams in N.Y. (UB, Syracuse and Army).

Syracuse plays in their dome. The weather up at West Point seems agreeable through October. Buffalo less so.

Can UB make it big with their existing stadium, which I think ranks lowly among MAC stadia?

Can UB extensively renovate or out and out replace their stadium?

Could UB ever build a 30K dome stadium?

Any chance UB and the Bills could cooperate on something like a domed stadium? Currently they aren't that close together.
01-29-2013 12:52 PM
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Love and Honor Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
The Bills just extended their lease at Ralph Wilson Stadium until 2017 I believe, but it's still an unstable situation up there from what I've read. Buffalo has lost so much economically over the past decades that once Ralph Wilson passes, outside buyers might try to move the team to Toronto, LA, etc. That being said, I don't think a new domed stadium is very likely to be funded mostly by a small city that needs as many tax dollars it can get, though I'm no expert on Buffalo.

An on campus domed stadium would probably be the best option, maybe make something like a larger version of the Fargodome, which holds 19,000 and cost about 80 million in 2013 dollars.
01-29-2013 01:14 PM
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HuskieJohn Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-29-2013 01:14 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  The Bills just extended their lease at Ralph Wilson Stadium until 2017 I believe, but it's still an unstable situation up there from what I've read. Buffalo has lost so much economically over the past decades that once Ralph Wilson passes, outside buyers might try to move the team to Toronto, LA, etc. That being said, I don't think a new domed stadium is very likely to be funded mostly by a small city that needs as many tax dollars it can get, though I'm no expert on Buffalo.

An on campus domed stadium would probably be the best option, maybe make something like a larger version of the Fargodome, which holds 19,000 and cost about 80 million in 2013 dollars.

With a 30k indoor stadium the BEta Conference is UB's ceiling. Though that pays much better than what they get now.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 02:16 PM by HuskieJohn.)
01-29-2013 02:15 PM
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emu steve Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-29-2013 02:15 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 01:14 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  The Bills just extended their lease at Ralph Wilson Stadium until 2017 I believe, but it's still an unstable situation up there from what I've read. Buffalo has lost so much economically over the past decades that once Ralph Wilson passes, outside buyers might try to move the team to Toronto, LA, etc. That being said, I don't think a new domed stadium is very likely to be funded mostly by a small city that needs as many tax dollars it can get, though I'm no expert on Buffalo.

An on campus domed stadium would probably be the best option, maybe make something like a larger version of the Fargodome, which holds 19,000 and cost about 80 million in 2013 dollars.

With a 30k indoor stadium the BEta Conference is UB's ceiling. Though that pays much better than what they get now.

UB has the ultimate potential to be a nBE school and could have been a BE school had the school not gone through such a checked pattern of downsizing and then trying to re-grow (play catch up) the athletic program as was described in the article linked earlier in this thread.
(This post was last modified: 01-29-2013 05:18 PM by emu steve.)
01-29-2013 05:14 PM
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HuskieJohn Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-29-2013 05:14 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 02:15 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 01:14 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  The Bills just extended their lease at Ralph Wilson Stadium until 2017 I believe, but it's still an unstable situation up there from what I've read. Buffalo has lost so much economically over the past decades that once Ralph Wilson passes, outside buyers might try to move the team to Toronto, LA, etc. That being said, I don't think a new domed stadium is very likely to be funded mostly by a small city that needs as many tax dollars it can get, though I'm no expert on Buffalo.

An on campus domed stadium would probably be the best option, maybe make something like a larger version of the Fargodome, which holds 19,000 and cost about 80 million in 2013 dollars.

With a 30k indoor stadium the BEta Conference is UB's ceiling. Though that pays much better than what they get now.

UB has the ultimate potential to be a nBE school and could have been a BE school had the school not gone through such a checked pattern of downsizing and then trying to re-grow (play catch up) the athletic program as was described in the article linked earlier in this thread.

I agree. I just thought the point was how to expand Buffalo to be a possible B1G school. A 30k indoor football stadium will not do it.
01-29-2013 05:19 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-29-2013 05:19 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 05:14 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 02:15 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 01:14 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  The Bills just extended their lease at Ralph Wilson Stadium until 2017 I believe, but it's still an unstable situation up there from what I've read. Buffalo has lost so much economically over the past decades that once Ralph Wilson passes, outside buyers might try to move the team to Toronto, LA, etc. That being said, I don't think a new domed stadium is very likely to be funded mostly by a small city that needs as many tax dollars it can get, though I'm no expert on Buffalo.

An on campus domed stadium would probably be the best option, maybe make something like a larger version of the Fargodome, which holds 19,000 and cost about 80 million in 2013 dollars.

With a 30k indoor stadium the BEta Conference is UB's ceiling. Though that pays much better than what they get now.

UB has the ultimate potential to be a nBE school and could have been a BE school had the school not gone through such a checked pattern of downsizing and then trying to re-grow (play catch up) the athletic program as was described in the article linked earlier in this thread.

I agree. I just thought the point was how to expand Buffalo to be a possible B1G school. A 30k indoor football stadium will not do it.

This is talk, growing murmurs, of a downtown dome *if* the Bills stay in Buffalo past Wilson's passing. Buffalo is missing a large space for convention and the one in Niagara Falls was given to the Native Americans to make into a casino.

Cuomo is apparently invested in Buffalo far more than Patacki did so it *could* happen.

That being said even with no bill/bulls stadium Director white has said upgrading our existing digs is near priority number one.
01-29-2013 08:01 PM
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RecoveringHillbilly Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
The city is losing population on the East Side but others are hot, especially Downtown and the Med Campus area where there are over $2B in investments complete or on the way. There was no housing boom/bust here and the value of the Canadian dollar/taxes have led to their comsumers spending $1B+ anually in WNY. The local economy has grown faster than the national average. But even then the Bills could be sunk when Ralph passes, so long as there are larger markets.

The expense of a domed UB Stadium wouldn't be needed as the winter weather here in the Northtowns isn't as bad as other areas. Buffalo's Southtowns, Syracuse, Rochester, all receive the greater lake-effect. Typical of winter, last week Ralph Wilson stadium got a foot of lake effect while UB North had about 2 inches.

UB Stadium isn't historic but the basics are there. It's suburban with enough parking and quick access/egress. The track is the obvious flaw but it will go in a few years and lowering the field to add closer seating is an option. The E/W grandstands are solid with raised concourses, new box seats going in, and the structures needed to top them with another stand or pressbox/suites if capacity needs calls for it. The South stands would require the most additions, bathrooms and consessions with designated concourses.
01-29-2013 11:34 PM
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UofToledoFans Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
Buffalo needs no more seating or anything until they get fans in the stands. Take out the endzone bleachers and bring the sides closer to the field. Concourses looked nice to me.
01-29-2013 11:41 PM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-29-2013 11:41 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Buffalo needs no more seating or anything until they get fans in the stands. Take out the endzone bleachers and bring the sides closer to the field. Concourses looked nice to me.

If only the MAC didn't make us put them there for membership 03-wink

The short term plans are not to add seating but to add and improve the luxury seating.
01-30-2013 01:13 AM
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UofToledoFans Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-30-2013 01:13 AM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 11:41 PM)UofToledoFans Wrote:  Buffalo needs no more seating or anything until they get fans in the stands. Take out the endzone bleachers and bring the sides closer to the field. Concourses looked nice to me.

If only the MAC didn't make us put them there for membership 03-wink

The short term plans are not to add seating but to add and improve the luxury seating.

It's one of my favorite looking stadiums. So whatever can inhance it is good for the MAC's image.
01-30-2013 02:24 AM
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emu steve Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-29-2013 08:01 PM)Bull_In_Exile Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 05:19 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 05:14 PM)emu steve Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 02:15 PM)HuskieJohn Wrote:  
(01-29-2013 01:14 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  The Bills just extended their lease at Ralph Wilson Stadium until 2017 I believe, but it's still an unstable situation up there from what I've read. Buffalo has lost so much economically over the past decades that once Ralph Wilson passes, outside buyers might try to move the team to Toronto, LA, etc. That being said, I don't think a new domed stadium is very likely to be funded mostly by a small city that needs as many tax dollars it can get, though I'm no expert on Buffalo.

An on campus domed stadium would probably be the best option, maybe make something like a larger version of the Fargodome, which holds 19,000 and cost about 80 million in 2013 dollars.

With a 30k indoor stadium the BEta Conference is UB's ceiling. Though that pays much better than what they get now.

UB has the ultimate potential to be a nBE school and could have been a BE school had the school not gone through such a checked pattern of downsizing and then trying to re-grow (play catch up) the athletic program as was described in the article linked earlier in this thread.

I agree. I just thought the point was how to expand Buffalo to be a possible B1G school. A 30k indoor football stadium will not do it.

This is talk, growing murmurs, of a downtown dome *if* the Bills stay in Buffalo past Wilson's passing. Buffalo is missing a large space for convention and the one in Niagara Falls was given to the Native Americans to make into a casino.

Cuomo is apparently invested in Buffalo far more than Patacki did so it *could* happen.

That being said even with no bill/bulls stadium Director white has said upgrading our existing digs is near priority number one.

I think is is really sad when schools like UB struggle athletically, and hurt the schools' 'reputation', when they are such solid and large academic institutions.

Folks at UB really missed the boat decades ago not realizing the tie between a U's reputation and athletics. E.g., folks know more about UNLV's basketball program of 20 years ago than their academics. Ditto Boise State for football.

There is no reason why UB should not have similar athletic status as say Syracuse, UConn, etc.

And there are other schools in a similar situation as UB was:

Stony Brook has more going for it academically than say Boise State. Stony Brook, I believe, is fast tracking, D-I athletic success. (I favor them as a MAC expansion candidate because of their size, stature and location, [Long Island]).

Wayne State (near downtown Detroit) is a very large largely commuter urban school which is D-II despite med, pharmacy, engineering, law schools, etc. (I wish EMU had half of those professional schools). Had Wayne State developed ala Temple they should have been D-I, perhaps instead of say EMU.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2013 05:12 AM by emu steve.)
01-30-2013 05:08 AM
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emu steve Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-29-2013 11:34 PM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  The city is losing population on the East Side but others are hot, especially Downtown and the Med Campus area where there are over $2B in investments complete or on the way. There was no housing boom/bust here and the value of the Canadian dollar/taxes have led to their comsumers spending $1B+ anually in WNY. The local economy has grown faster than the national average. But even then the Bills could be sunk when Ralph passes, so long as there are larger markets.

The expense of a domed UB Stadium wouldn't be needed as the winter weather here in the Northtowns isn't as bad as other areas. Buffalo's Southtowns, Syracuse, Rochester, all receive the greater lake-effect. Typical of winter, last week Ralph Wilson stadium got a foot of lake effect while UB North had about 2 inches.

UB Stadium isn't historic but the basics are there. It's suburban with enough parking and quick access/egress. The track is the obvious flaw but it will go in a few years and lowering the field to add closer seating is an option. The E/W grandstands are solid with raised concourses, new box seats going in, and the structures needed to top them with another stand or pressbox/suites if capacity needs calls for it. The South stands would require the most additions, bathrooms and consessions with designated concourses.

Very good post.

BTW, where is the stadium vis-a-vis the main campus?
01-30-2013 05:16 AM
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RecoveringHillbilly Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
East side of UB North.

Something interesting is all this is the AD is not part of this process's chain of communication. Yet within additional draft documents it specifically states the possibility of "Ground-breaking investments in infrastructures – for students, for faculty" and "Big-time athletics".

With more "sorry's" to our UMass friends. But you'll get there soon enough. Our non-athletics people aren't nearly as anti-athletics as UB staff were when we started to move into the MAC in the late 90's. Back when Gov Pataki was cutting the SUNY budget and funds were tight. Staff were following the lead of staff at Rutgers, who also faught AD spending in light of academic loses. But now funding is stabilized, more staff are being hired, and the pride of the MAC title shook off much of the anti-athletics sentiment. If anything the staff are pie-in-the-sky and somewhat ignorant of what's possible. A few years ago a prof asked in a meeting if UB could possibly downgrade football and look to join the Ivy League.
(This post was last modified: 01-30-2013 07:21 AM by RecoveringHillbilly.)
01-30-2013 07:16 AM
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Re: RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-30-2013 07:16 AM)RecoveringHillbilly Wrote:  East side of UB North.

Something interesting is all this is the AD is not part of this process's chain of communication. Yet within additional draft documents it specifically states the possibility of "Ground-breaking investments in infrastructures – for students, for faculty" and "Big-time athletics".

With more "sorry's" to our UMass friends. But you'll get there soon enough. Our non-athletics people aren't nearly as anti-athletics as UB staff were when we started to move into the MAC in the late 90's. Back when Gov Pataki was cutting the SUNY budget and funds were tight. Staff were following the lead of staff at Rutgers, who also faught AD spending in light of academic loses. But now funding is stabilized, more staff are being hired, and the pride of the MAC title shook off much of the anti-athletics sentiment. If anything the staff are pie-in-the-sky and somewhat ignorant of what's possible. A few years ago a prof asked in a meeting if UB could possibly downgrade football and look to join the Ivy League.

Yup both schools had to contend with a lot. Now those voices have quieted considerably. I think the reason more people don't know that the SUNY system has some large and very good schools is because they've never had any make a consistent push for athletic marketing and growth. Now Buffalo is definitely making the commitment and Stony Brook on the FCS side of things appears to be doing the same. Best of luck to you guys with these plans. :04-cheers:

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01-30-2013 07:28 AM
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Bull_In_Exile Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
(01-30-2013 05:08 AM)emu steve Wrote:  I think is is really sad when schools like UB struggle athletically, and hurt the schools' 'reputation', when they are such solid and large academic institutions.

I don't think a struggling athletics program "hurts" a schools reputation. UB Joined the AAU long before it was a division one athletics program and became a solid research school during a period when they had practiclly no athletics at all (the 1970's)

Quote:Folks at UB really missed the boat decades ago not realizing the tie between a U's reputation and athletics. E.g., folks know more about UNLV's basketball program of 20 years ago than their academics. Ditto Boise State for football.

It's fair to say bad athletics is a missed opportunity to sell your brand to the masses.

Quote:There is no reason why UB should not have similar athletic status as say Syracuse, UConn, etc.


Talk to the SUNY board 03-wink they were hell bent against athletics for a long time.

Quote:Stony Brook has more going for it academically than say Boise State. Stony Brook, I believe, is fast tracking, D-I athletic success. (I favor them as a MAC expansion candidate because of their size, stature and location, [Long Island]).

Stony Brook has labored under the same weight as UB, in a lot of ways we cleared a path for them (and Albany).
01-30-2013 08:26 AM
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indianasniff Offline
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RE: Buffalo Athletics may benefit from UB2020
http://www.buffalonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...29746/1109

In October a plan was presented to the Common Council that proposes a 72,000-seatRetractable-roof stadium proposed for outer harbor, Bills venue would double as convention site

In the meantime a $130 million upgrade of Ralph Wilson stadium is in the works

http://news.wbfo.org/post/bills-unveil-u...on-stadium
01-30-2013 12:54 PM
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