(01-24-2013 01:55 PM)hongkongtiger Wrote:  Thanks for all the great information. I do find it very interesting so many on this board continue to measure Coach Pastner's success as a coach by comparing him to the most polarizing successful coach in Tiger history.

Corrected.

(01-24-2013 02:01 PM)MemphisTigerFreak Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 01:55 PM)hongkongtiger Wrote:  Thanks for all the great information. I do find it very interesting so many on this board continue to measure Coach Pastner's success as a coach by comparing him to the most polarizing coach in Tiger history.

This

No it is more like people have a Napolean complex about Pastner and try to "prove" that he is better than Cal by dredging up numbers that don't really tell the whole truth.

The fact is they are two different people, in different eras, in different conference setups.

People who might have issue with Pastner have the issues solely based on what Pastner has/has not accomplished, not in comparison to Cal or anyone else.

Trying to bring another into the argument is superfluous.

(01-24-2013 02:10 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  No it is more like people have a Napolean complex about Pastner and try to "prove" that he is better than Cal by dredging up numbers that don't really tell the whole truth.

The fact is they are two different people, in different eras, in different conference setups.

People who might have issue with Pastner have the issues solely based on what Pastner has/has not accomplished, not in comparison to Cal or anyone else.

Trying to bring another into the argument is superfluous.

Very well said.

(01-24-2013 01:47 PM)btipton1 Wrote:  Interesting. I am a fan of these types of comparisons, especially when somebody else does the work to track down the data.

I'll go ahead and put out there the obvious falicy in the comparison....

John Calipari took over a team that just finished a 15-16 season playing for an interim coach who took over for another .500 winning percentage coach mired in a scandal for getting a little too sweet with the student body (to put it mildly).

Josh Pastner took over a team that just finished yet another 16-0 CUSA demolishion and sweet 16 appearance and was arguably at the door steps of joining the elite of elite programs in national name and brand recognition.

Yes, it is relevant that the cupboard was essentially robbed by Cal on his way out, but the brand recognition and recent success alone put a young Josh Pastner at a very distinct advantage in his first 3 years vs an NBA outcast John Calipari in his first 3.

(Note: I hate John Calipari and love Josh Pastner, just so we can get that out of the way.)

If you're going to do that, let's continue.

John Calipari was a seasoned coach at the time with a NCAA Final Four under his belt and NBA experience. He inherited a squad that included Scooter McFadgon, Kelly Wise, Shannon Foreman, Marcus Moody, and Earl Barron.

Josh Pastner was a rookie head coach. He inherited a team that included Wesley Witherspoon, Roburt Sallie, Donneal Mack, Angel Garcia, and Pierre Niles. Of course, Angel Garcia left 12 games into the season...Sallie and Pastner never meshed at all...Niles and Witherspoon never played to their potential. He was able to add Elliott Williams, but overall, that group never seemed to reach their potential under any coach.

The point of this whole thread is that there is no point. Those who want Pastner gone will find things to point to, those who want him here will find things to point to. Then, the pissing match will start anew in another thread.

For those who would like to see Pastner move onto another job, who do you propose we get?

The Calipari vs Pastner era is unfair.

That said, most of the comparison seems to stem from Cal's last four years, not his first three. That is an unfair comparison and there is a REASON a run like that hadn't happened before.

Josh still has things to work on as a head coach. However, he does recruit very well, he wins most of the games he's supposed to win (Only one 'bad' OOC loss in his tenure here), and his teams are improving. At the same time, the guys are going to class and no one is 'making it rain', soliciting prostitutes, or beating up ex girlfriends.

No, he hasn't beaten a top 25 team or won a tourney game yet. Consider that, while important, those are really the only two things he hasn't done as a head coach.

(01-24-2013 02:10 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:01 PM)MemphisTigerFreak Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 01:55 PM)hongkongtiger Wrote:  Thanks for all the great information. I do find it very interesting so many on this board continue to measure Coach Pastner's success as a coach by comparing him to the most polarizing coach in Tiger history.

This

No it is more like people have a Napolean complex about Pastner and try to "prove" that he is better than Cal by dredging up numbers that don't really tell the whole truth.

The fact is they are two different people, in different eras, in different conference setups.

People who might have issue with Pastner have the issues solely based on what Pastner has/has not accomplished, not in comparison to Cal or anyone else.

Trying to bring another into the argument is superfluous.

In no way am stating Pastner is better than Calipari. He never has been, he isn't now, and more than likely won't ever be. Don't get so upset that Pastner's and Calipari's stats their first 3 season are comparable. Jeez

(01-24-2013 01:47 PM)btipton1 Wrote:  Interesting. I am a fan of these types of comparisons, especially when somebody else does the work to track down the data.

I'll go ahead and put out there the obvious falicy in the comparison....

John Calipari took over a team that just finished a 15-16 season playing for an interim coach who took over for another .500 winning percentage coach mired in a scandal for getting a little too sweet with the student body (to put it mildly).

Josh Pastner took over a team that just finished yet another 16-0 CUSA demolishion and sweet 16 appearance and was arguably at the door steps of joining the elite of elite programs in national name and brand recognition.

Yes, it is relevant that the cupboard was essentially robbed by Cal on his way out, but the brand recognition and recent success alone put a young Josh Pastner at a very distinct advantage in his first 3 years vs an NBA outcast John Calipari in his first 3.

(Note: I hate John Calipari and love Josh Pastner, just so we can get that out of the way.)

I strongly disagree with your point that the program was better off after Cal left. He didn't just leave the cupboard bare, the program was dragged through a witch hunt resulting in stripped titles and probation, which made the coaching position a pariah in the eyes of prospective replacements. We were lucky that Pastner took the job in spite of his lack of head coachiing experience. No one else wanted it.

The "team" that Cal left comprised of no former starters, no recruits and one JUCO transfer. Most recruits and prospects were already signed with other programs - do you recall what happened to Eric Bledsoe?

I agree with your sentiments about Cal and Pastner but don't buy into the notion that the program was better off. The whole country felt sorry for us - that's not the type of recognition we needed on a big scale.

(01-24-2013 02:09 PM)Chip Diller Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 01:55 PM)hongkongtiger Wrote:  Thanks for all the great information. I do find it very interesting so many on this board continue to measure Coach Pastner's success as a coach by comparing him to the most polarizing coach in Tiger history.

Corrected.

Recorrected and leave it alone. Comment all you want but leave it alone please.

(01-24-2013 02:09 PM)Chip Diller Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 01:55 PM)hongkongtiger Wrote:  Thanks for all the great information. I do find it very interesting so many on this board continue to measure Coach Pastner's success as a coach by comparing him to the most polarizing successful coach in Tiger history.

Corrected.

That's debatable.

Larry Finch has the most wins. Bob Vanetta has the highest winning percentage. Gene Bartow took us to the only Championship Game that counts. It's hard to have that discussion without Dana Kirk in the mix too.

Both Narcissist and Pastner had a good first three and a half years. Neither great- so far.

Narcissist had a great last 4 years.

Hopefully, and the team looks close, we will have more great years including this one in the very near future.

The rest is paff.

(01-24-2013 01:47 PM)TigerTimmy Wrote:  It does not matter what the stats say. Some people refuse to give Josh Pastner credit for winning.

AMEN

(01-24-2013 02:10 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:01 PM)MemphisTigerFreak Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 01:55 PM)hongkongtiger Wrote:  Thanks for all the great information. I do find it very interesting so many on this board continue to measure Coach Pastner's success as a coach by comparing him to the most polarizing coach in Tiger history.

This

No it is more like people have a Napolean complex about Pastner and try to "prove" that he is better than Cal by dredging up numbers that don't really tell the whole truth.

The fact is they are two different people, in different eras, in different conference setups.

People who might have issue with Pastner have the issues solely based on what Pastner has/has not accomplished, not in comparison to Cal or anyone else.

Trying to bring another into the argument is superfluous.

Like the same people that go dredge up numbers to prove him wrong, Napolean.

(01-24-2013 02:19 PM)ballen Wrote:  I strongly disagree with your point that the program was better off after Cal left. He didn't just leave the cupboard bare, the program was dragged through a witch hunt resulting in stripped titles and probation, which made the coaching position a pariah in the eyes of prospective replacements. We were lucky that Pastner took the job in spite of his lack of head coachiing experience. No one else wanted it.

The "team" that Cal left comprised of no former starters, no recruits and one JUCO transfer. Most recruits and prospects were already signed with other programs - do you recall what happened to Eric Bledsoe?

I agree with your sentiments about Cal and Pastner but don't buy into the notion that the program was better off. The whole country felt sorry for us - that's not the type of recognition we needed on a big scale.

Kemp wasn't a starter his freshman year? Hmm. I guess I must have watched the wrong team. Mack was a starter on the S16 team, I thought...am I wrong? Witherspoon was the starting PG (as a Frosh) wasn't he?

So that is three players that were starters at some point. Throw in Sallie, who was coming off the highest 3pt shooting percentage season in Tiger history with Angel Garcia and Niles. Add #2 JUCO recruit Coleman.

Sure it was a bad stroke of luck that Angel hurt his knee in preseason, but that isn't Cal's fault, is it? Pierre lost a sht ton of weight but was one of the first players to get #tendinitis issues and left the team.

Don't forget, too, Josh (until he was hc) was calling all the recruits about the move to KY and was ready to be part of that whole scheme. It is not like he removed himself from that unsavory behavior. He just fell into a better career opportunity a lot quicker than he expected. Heck, he was the one that signed as a witness on Cal's contract.

Do you just regurgitate what the company line is?

No one wanted the job? Scott Drew did. Whether you like him or not, that isn't the point. You stated NOBODY wanted the job. I believe Leonard Hamilton was prepared to take the job, too.

The bottom line should be NOBODY that you liked wanted the job. RC chocked when he promised a WOW hire and painted himself into a corner.

(01-24-2013 02:34 PM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:10 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:01 PM)MemphisTigerFreak Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 01:55 PM)hongkongtiger Wrote:  Thanks for all the great information. I do find it very interesting so many on this board continue to measure Coach Pastner's success as a coach by comparing him to the most polarizing coach in Tiger history.

This

No it is more like people have a Napolean complex about Pastner and try to "prove" that he is better than Cal by dredging up numbers that don't really tell the whole truth.

The fact is they are two different people, in different eras, in different conference setups.

People who might have issue with Pastner have the issues solely based on what Pastner has/has not accomplished, not in comparison to Cal or anyone else.

Trying to bring another into the argument is superfluous.

Like the same people that go dredge up numbers to prove him wrong, Napolean.

No, I just provide the whole pic. I didn't edit the Sagarin or the SRS that shows last year's team to be the highest rated of those six years.

I could have simply omitted the year by year numbers and submitted the averages if I wanted to. However, I don't have an agenda, I just want to make sure all the info is available for public consumption, so someone doesn't sound like a dumb A spouting off how these teams play a tougher schedule than other teams.

(01-24-2013 01:43 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  Sagarin team ratings:

00-01: 51
01-02: 33
02-03: 26

average: 36.6

09-10: 59
10-11: 71
11-12: 18

average: 49.3

So JP was able to better position the Tigers 3 years after the annihilation he inherited from JC than JC 3 years after the annihilation he inherited from TP?

(01-24-2013 02:19 PM)ballen Wrote:  ...

I strongly disagree with your point that the program was better off after Cal left. He didn't just leave the cupboard bare, the program was dragged through a witch hunt resulting in stripped titles and probation, which made the coaching position a pariah in the eyes of prospective replacements. We were lucky that Pastner took the job in spite of his lack of head coachiing experience. No one else wanted it.

...

Pastner didn't find out about the letter of inquiry until after he got the job. He was in the program. It isn't true that no one else wanted the job either.

(01-24-2013 02:40 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:34 PM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:10 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:01 PM)MemphisTigerFreak Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 01:55 PM)hongkongtiger Wrote:  Thanks for all the great information. I do find it very interesting so many on this board continue to measure Coach Pastner's success as a coach by comparing him to the most polarizing coach in Tiger history.

This

No it is more like people have a Napolean complex about Pastner and try to "prove" that he is better than Cal by dredging up numbers that don't really tell the whole truth.

The fact is they are two different people, in different eras, in different conference setups.

People who might have issue with Pastner have the issues solely based on what Pastner has/has not accomplished, not in comparison to Cal or anyone else.

Trying to bring another into the argument is superfluous.

Like the same people that go dredge up numbers to prove him wrong, Napolean.

No, I just provide the whole pic. I didn't edit the Sagarin or the SRS that shows last year's team to be the highest rated of those six years.

I could have simply omitted the year by year numbers and submitted the averages if I wanted to. However, I don't have an agenda, I just want to make sure all the info is available for public consumption, so someone doesn't sound like a dumb A spouting off how these teams play a tougher schedule than other teams.

Ah another comparison thread between our current coach and the coach of Kentucky. What a Thursday.

(01-24-2013 02:54 PM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:40 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:34 PM)cvilletiger Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:10 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  

(01-24-2013 02:01 PM)MemphisTigerFreak Wrote:  This

No it is more like people have a Napolean complex about Pastner and try to "prove" that he is better than Cal by dredging up numbers that don't really tell the whole truth.

The fact is they are two different people, in different eras, in different conference setups.

People who might have issue with Pastner have the issues solely based on what Pastner has/has not accomplished, not in comparison to Cal or anyone else.

Trying to bring another into the argument is superfluous.

Like the same people that go dredge up numbers to prove him wrong, Napolean.

No, I just provide the whole pic. I didn't edit the Sagarin or the SRS that shows last year's team to be the highest rated of those six years.

I could have simply omitted the year by year numbers and submitted the averages if I wanted to. However, I don't have an agenda, I just want to make sure all the info is available for public consumption, so someone doesn't sound like a dumb A spouting off how these teams play a tougher schedule than other teams.

I would love for you to enlighten me.

Sorry that I have an open mind and don't blindly follow what people want me to believe. The only agenda I have is thinking for myself and coming to my conclusions based on facts and experience based situations.

(01-24-2013 02:58 PM)fishman6581 Wrote:  Ah another comparison thread between our current coach and the coach of Kentucky. What a Thursday.

Yeah. This thread is pretty unnecessary at this point. Given the work done by the OP and Saluki in dredging up and posting all of these numbers here, maybe we should just peg this thread to the top and mods should just delete future threads and we can refer all further attempts to discuss the matter here. Maybe we can think up some cathphrase that everyone can take joy in saying every time we point someone to this thread like "pope" or "poptarts" that can then be run into the ground.

I dunno like "Deja Vu all over again"