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mapdude Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Small Ball
(01-21-2013 04:50 PM)missjtiger Wrote:  and I want to be young and beautiful and rich.

Well good luck on the young...I think you got the other two in the bag...
01-21-2013 05:30 PM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Small Ball
(01-21-2013 05:25 PM)mairving Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 05:01 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  I like Josh but there’s one thing he could learn from Cal and other good coaches. Cal was not afraid to play bench players during actual close games to see what they could contribute. He played Rose & Reek in different schemes and once tried Spoon at point guard.

Josh won’t.

So Pastner is a terrible coach because he experiments with a small lineup and wins a game?
But Cal is a great coach because he experiments with different lineups?

I guess you missed the games we lost last year going small. IIRC in the last game we lost in the regular season we let Michael Jordan’s son play like Michael Jordan. Easy to drive or pull up and shoot with a 3 playing a 5. A caveman could do it.

Cal & other good coaches experiment while the game is ongoing not only in scrub time. Spoon (for example) didn’t come in as point guard, he started at the point and Cal allowed him to stay in longer than 2 seconds. Cal never went small for any length of time.

Never said Josh was terrible and this is one of the few concerns I have with him. But this is an important one and opposing coaches WILL take advantage of it.
01-21-2013 06:41 PM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Small Ball
(01-21-2013 05:27 PM)missjtiger Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 05:25 PM)mairving Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 05:01 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  I like Josh but there’s one thing he could learn from Cal and other good coaches. Cal was not afraid to play bench players during actual close games to see what they could contribute. He played Rose & Reek in different schemes and once tried Spoon at point guard.

Josh won’t.

So Pastner is a terrible coach because he experiments with a small lineup and wins a game?
But Cal is a great coach because he experiments with different lineups?

I have major problems following his logic...glad to see I'm not the only one here.

Respectfully there’s no logic to figure out only basic sports 101.

”Play to your strengths and force your opponent to change”

After our national championship game with UCLA John Wooden said: ”That’s the first time any coach made me call a timeout first”.

Gene Bartow knew bball 101 too and wasn’t going to call a timeout first while the game was close. This was one reason we stayed in the game and if Walton hadn’t gone off and set a NCAA tournament record we probably would have won.

Wooden respected Bartow’s move and said so many times publicly. This no doubt helped Bartow land the UCLA job.
(This post was last modified: 01-21-2013 07:01 PM by BealeStreetTiger.)
01-21-2013 07:00 PM
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mairving Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Small Ball
(01-21-2013 06:41 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 05:25 PM)mairving Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 05:01 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  I like Josh but there’s one thing he could learn from Cal and other good coaches. Cal was not afraid to play bench players during actual close games to see what they could contribute. He played Rose & Reek in different schemes and once tried Spoon at point guard.

Josh won’t.

So Pastner is a terrible coach because he experiments with a small lineup and wins a game?
But Cal is a great coach because he experiments with different lineups?

I guess you missed the games we lost last year going small. IIRC in the last game we lost in the regular season we let Michael Jordan’s son play like Michael Jordan. Easy to drive or pull up and shoot with a 3 playing a 5. A caveman could do it.

Cal & other good coaches experiment while the game is ongoing not only in scrub time. Spoon (for example) didn’t come in as point guard, he started at the point and Cal allowed him to stay in longer than 2 seconds. Cal never went small for any length of time.

Never said Josh was terrible and this is one of the few concerns I have with him. But this is an important one and opposing coaches WILL take advantage of it.

When you are in a hole you don't keep digging to get out like you are.

Cal was always knocked because he could never get a quality big.

In 2004-5 none of our top 5 scorers were bigs. Erwin was our leading rebounder. He was 6th in scoring and 5th in minutes. We played small a lot.

In 2005-6 none of our top 5 scorers were bigs. Dorsey was our leading big man and he only played 21 mpg. Dozier was our other big man. He was 7th in minutes.

In 2006-7 Dorsey and Dozier got 25 minutes a game. Kareem Cooper was our only other big man.

In 2007-8 Dorsey and Dozier again but Taggart took Cooper's minutes.

In 2008-9 we had Taggart as our only big unless you counted PHN.

We are in decent shape this year with big men. Shaq is averaging 23 minutes per game despite being a freshman and getting into foul trouble. Black is averaging over 20 minutes per game despite getting in to foul trouble, being injured and not wanting to play.
01-21-2013 08:01 PM
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tigers0830 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Small Ball
(01-21-2013 04:03 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 12:49 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(01-20-2013 10:41 AM)shirley temple Wrote:  Going small against a small team is basically saying , not gonna try and outcoach you. But i do have more talent,which is ok i guess.my smalls are better than yours!

I think I remember a few years back a team by the name of Villanova stayed highly ranked and had high seed and made it decently far in the NCAA tourney with a 4 guard lineup.

You can win playing small.

Also it is hard to play bigs when 1) Shaq had 4 fouls and 2)Tarik was mentally weak.

I don't know about you, but if I had the choice of going with a small lineup or put in Simpson and Hall. I'm going with the small lineup

Yeah, we can win playing small with the schedule we have but…

With the NCAA seed we’ll probably get odds are we would be headed back to Memphis after the first game.

No lessons learned from last year I see. Same strategy = same results. Or was Einstein incorrect? Don’t think so.

Did you read anything I said.

There was a team call Villanova. You do know what conference they play in right?

They were ranked in the top ten the season they played a 4 guard lineup in the Big East. So don't bring that schedule argument because it doesn't work.

You play the lineup that works. Again I ask since Tarik wasn't there mentally and Shaq had 4 fouls would you put in Stan Simpson and Hall or keep the small lineup?

I know what I would do and that is the small lineup because it gives me the best chance to win that game.

Apparently you would put Shaq back in or put Stan and Hall in and lose the game.
01-21-2013 08:07 PM
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missjtiger Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Small Ball
omg...I think I have entered the Twilight Zone. No logic ? basic sports 101 ? You must think I fell off a turnip truck yesterday ... I have a little knowledge of sports and a little experience too.
01-21-2013 08:13 PM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Small Ball
(01-21-2013 08:07 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  Did you read anything I said.

There was a team call Villanova. You do know what conference they play in right?

They were ranked in the top ten the season they played a 4 guard lineup in the Big East. So don't bring that schedule argument because it doesn't work.

You play the lineup that works. Again I ask since Tarik wasn't there mentally and Shaq had 4 fouls would you put in Stan Simpson and Hall or keep the small lineup?

I know what I would do and that is the small lineup because it gives me the best chance to win that game.

Apparently you would put Shaq back in or put Stan and Hall in and lose the game.

Evidently you missed post #47…

jgardne Wrote:i knew somebody would use that villanova example. They actually started 4 guards and a big, but what you don't remember is that they had an 8 man rotation essentailly with 4 bigs and 4 guards. Those 4 guards started but were running in and out for each other, not other guards on the bench.

If you add up the minutes the nova bigs played, it averaged 64 minutes a game of bigs, which means over half the time they were playing 2 big men.

http://www.villanova.com/sports/m-baskbl...mcume.html

Did you see this team play? I did many times. No one tried what they did back then, not even today.

They didn’t switch their style and go small like we do, they started out with it and suckered just about every team they played.

Apples to Oranges.
01-22-2013 12:12 AM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Small Ball
(01-21-2013 08:13 PM)missjtiger Wrote:  omg...I think I have entered the Twilight Zone. No logic ? basic sports 101 ? You must think I fell off a turnip truck yesterday ... I have a little knowledge of sports and a little experience too.

Well don’t jump me. It was you who said you didn’t understand my logic so I simply explained it to you.
01-22-2013 12:31 AM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Small Ball
(01-21-2013 08:01 PM)mairving Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 06:41 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 05:25 PM)mairving Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 05:01 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  I like Josh but there’s one thing he could learn from Cal and other good coaches. Cal was not afraid to play bench players during actual close games to see what they could contribute. He played Rose & Reek in different schemes and once tried Spoon at point guard.

Josh won’t.

So Pastner is a terrible coach because he experiments with a small lineup and wins a game?
But Cal is a great coach because he experiments with different lineups?

I guess you missed the games we lost last year going small. IIRC in the last game we lost in the regular season we let Michael Jordan’s son play like Michael Jordan. Easy to drive or pull up and shoot with a 3 playing a 5. A caveman could do it.

Cal & other good coaches experiment while the game is ongoing not only in scrub time. Spoon (for example) didn’t come in as point guard, he started at the point and Cal allowed him to stay in longer than 2 seconds. Cal never went small for any length of time.

Never said Josh was terrible and this is one of the few concerns I have with him. But this is an important one and opposing coaches WILL take advantage of it.

When you are in a hole you don't keep digging to get out like you are.

Cal was always knocked because he could never get a quality big.

In 2004-5 none of our top 5 scorers were bigs. Erwin was our leading rebounder. He was 6th in scoring and 5th in minutes. We played small a lot.

In 2005-6 none of our top 5 scorers were bigs. Dorsey was our leading big man and he only played 21 mpg. Dozier was our other big man. He was 7th in minutes.

In 2006-7 Dorsey and Dozier got 25 minutes a game. Kareem Cooper was our only other big man.

In 2007-8 Dorsey and Dozier again but Taggart took Cooper's minutes.

In 2008-9 we had Taggart as our only big unless you counted PHN.

We are in decent shape this year with big men. Shaq is averaging 23 minutes per game despite being a freshman and getting into foul trouble. Black is averaging over 20 minutes per game despite getting in to foul trouble, being injured and not wanting to play.

Not news to me.

The Tigers have never concentrated on acquiring a dominating frontline and IMHO this is the primary reason we’ve never won it all. All you have to do is look at the top 25 today and view their frontcourt + subs. Or look at UK last season.

You say quit digging, but this hole was started by me last year. About this same time last year I started a thread titled (IIRC) “Small Ball Again” and it was the same complaint as this one. I was jumped called a troll, no Tiger fan (ect) just like the crap in this one.

So what happened against ST Louis? Rick figured us out, clogged the lane, drove into Tarik when they could, got him in foul trouble, we put Spoon at the 5…..game over.

And while most were saying we will have Tarik AND Shaq I said it wouldn’t be enough and we would still go small again if they get into trouble, most here said it didn’t matter. Didn’t matter? 03-confused

OK. We’ll see.
01-22-2013 01:00 AM
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lenetzach Offline
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Post: #70
Small Ball
St Louis took away transition, from us and from Michigan State. (by the way, two days after they did this to us, Izzo went into halftime focused on needing to get more transition - but it was not going to happen and it didn't, bc the game plan was to play ball control for 30 seconds, and then send everyone back on defense after the shot.

This is a huge risk and something a coach only does when he believes he has very little chance.

The defense in the lane was also very aggressive. They also took away the lane from us and from MSU by double and triple teaming anyone with the ball there.

Also, they were roofing Tarik and climbing on him, literally hanging on his arms. This was also a risk, only taken by teams who believe they have nothing to lose.

The thing about double and triple teams is that they should leave someone open - in this case on the perimeter. Problem was that we couldn't hit a jump shot outside the lane and couldn't get a shot off inside, no matter how big Tarik was.

Do you know how Izzo solved SLU? He didn't. Luckily for him, Draymond Green can play like a point guard, and he started making perimeter jumpers in the 2nd half, and that drew a defender, so he also started driving the ball and making shots and assists.

Also SLU had two crazy deep 3s vs MSU like against us (we had a hand in the face btw). They went in against us, rattled out vs MSU. These happened at critical moments.

It is simply wrong to think that a greater commitment to playing bigs would have won the SLU game.

It helps to have such a dominant inside presence that another team wants to shut it down. But the way that it helps (unless the NCAA adopts defensive 3 seconds) is that it opens up shooters. Open shooters have to make shots.
01-22-2013 01:59 AM
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tigers0830 Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Small Ball
(01-22-2013 12:12 AM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  
(01-21-2013 08:07 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  Did you read anything I said.

There was a team call Villanova. You do know what conference they play in right?

They were ranked in the top ten the season they played a 4 guard lineup in the Big East. So don't bring that schedule argument because it doesn't work.

You play the lineup that works. Again I ask since Tarik wasn't there mentally and Shaq had 4 fouls would you put in Stan Simpson and Hall or keep the small lineup?

I know what I would do and that is the small lineup because it gives me the best chance to win that game.

Apparently you would put Shaq back in or put Stan and Hall in and lose the game.

Evidently you missed post #47…

jgardne Wrote:i knew somebody would use that villanova example. They actually started 4 guards and a big, but what you don't remember is that they had an 8 man rotation essentailly with 4 bigs and 4 guards. Those 4 guards started but were running in and out for each other, not other guards on the bench.

If you add up the minutes the nova bigs played, it averaged 64 minutes a game of bigs, which means over half the time they were playing 2 big men.

http://www.villanova.com/sports/m-baskbl...mcume.html

Did you see this team play? I did many times. No one tried what they did back then, not even today.

They didn’t switch their style and go small like we do, they started out with it and suckered just about every team they played.

Apples to Oranges.

It's not apples to oranges. I watched that team play as well and couldn't believe it worked. The reason why it worked was because they had great talent playing that small lineup.

What you are refusing to get is that you don't play big just to play big and you don't play small just to play small. You play with what gives you the best chance to win in that particular game.

Going small has given this team a better chance to win the majority of the time this year. There is nothing wrong with going small if the 5 on the court are playing well.

I'm glad your not a coach because I'm sure you would have thrown Shaq in there with 4 foul as well as Stan or Hall with the game on the line. What a great coach you would make.
01-22-2013 02:10 AM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Small Ball
(01-22-2013 01:59 AM)lenetzach Wrote:  St Louis took away transition, from us and from Michigan State. (by the way, two days after they did this to us, Izzo went into halftime focused on needing to get more transition - but it was not going to happen and it didn't, bc the game plan was to play ball control for 30 seconds, and then send everyone back on defense after the shot.

This is a huge risk and something a coach only does when he believes he has very little chance.

The defense in the lane was also very aggressive. They also took away the lane from us and from MSU by double and triple teaming anyone with the ball there.

Also, they were roofing Tarik and climbing on him, literally hanging on his arms. This was also a risk, only taken by teams who believe they have nothing to lose.

The thing about double and triple teams is that they should leave someone open - in this case on the perimeter. Problem was that we couldn't hit a jump shot outside the lane and couldn't get a shot off inside, no matter how big Tarik was.

Do you know how Izzo solved SLU? He didn't. Luckily for him, Draymond Green can play like a point guard, and he started making perimeter jumpers in the 2nd half, and that drew a defender, so he also started driving the ball and making shots and assists.

Also SLU had two crazy deep 3s vs MSU like against us (we had a hand in the face btw). They went in against us, rattled out vs MSU. These happened at critical moments.

It is simply wrong to think that a greater commitment to playing bigs would have won the SLU game.

It helps to have such a dominant inside presence that another team wants to shut it down. But the way that it helps (unless the NCAA adopts defensive 3 seconds) is that it opens up shooters. Open shooters have to make shots.

Lol, Rick Majerus was a master of driving opposing coaches nuts. He concentrated on beating teams back down the floor on defense and setting up a collapsing paint area zone. If the ball went into the paint they would double and triple team. If they tried to drive they would switch and double usually causing a difficult shot or pass.

Majerus said his reasoning for running the shot clock down was to limit total possessions of the game. He thought if his team could limit possessions he could control the game flow, and with his style of defense he would always have a chance to win at the end. He didn’t do this because he thought he had little chance to win, he did it because it was his developed coaching philosophy.

You’re correct about Green as they had no answer after he got hot. But he also got some key rebounds down the stretch and played good defense in the paint. Izzo also turned up his defense in the paint and forced ST Louis to take deep shots, which like you said they didn’t hit. I think we are in total agreement on most of this but…

I think you’re wrong thinking a big man would make no difference. I like Spoon but he can’t guard a 4 and is totally ineffective against a 5. I don’t recall a single pass to Spoon at the 5 in that game. In fact I can only think of a handful of passes to him at that position all year. Other coaches knew this and Majerus did too and really didn’t guard him like a true big. Spoon is a face up player, not a back to the basket center. We were playing 4 against 5 especially on offense.

Even though fighting very hard at the 5 Spoon would easily get pushed out of position on the defensive end and this gave him little chance to get a defensive rebound. This made it very difficult for us to even start transition plus gave ST Louis the edge in rebounding and (guess what?). Pass it back out and run more clock again.

Not being able to throw a rock in the sea didn’t help either. Couldn’t buy a basket inside or out. I would have liked to see Spoon take some of those critical perimiter shots because he had been playing very well. Can’t do it at the 5 spot

To his credit Josh realized this and put Hall back in to help. But it was too late to affect the outcome.
01-22-2013 03:15 PM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Small Ball
(01-22-2013 02:10 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  It's not apples to oranges. I watched that team play as well and couldn't believe it worked. The reason why it worked was because they had great talent playing that small lineup.

What you are refusing to get is that you don't play big just to play big and you don't play small just to play small. You play with what gives you the best chance to win in that particular game.

Going small has given this team a better chance to win the majority of the time this year. There is nothing wrong with going small if the 5 on the court are playing well.


The apples & oranges of it is this Villanova team started the games with a small lineup. When was the last time the Tigers STARTED a game with 4 guards & 1 big? Two of those guards were hardnosed and played very physical. Their goal was to make an initial run to get the lead, and just when their opponent would adapt BOOM... they would bring 1 or 2 bigs. Fresh bigs to boot. Good bigs too.

In other words they would make their opponent react instead of playing their usual game. One of the few teams that gave them trouble was Georgetown. While most teams reacted to Villanova and went small, George Thompson stayed with his game plan and his bigs, usually forcing Villanova to change. During that era this particular match up was a spectator’s feast and one to look forward to.

I’m not refusing to see the reasoning behind playing big or small to win a given game, I’m saying stick with you do best and make the other team change. This is what good teams do. If the game is on the line then you adapt for the win. This isn’t what we are doing, especially last season.

We are the team that changes and goes small because we don’t have decent backups. Stan & Hall have become merely spectators and may as well be up in the stands with the rest of us. As we saw last game (when Shaq & Black were out) Adonis played center and DJ PF. Again, this will work during our regular schedule but we’ll have to be super lucky later on.

I don’t like to rely on luck when it’s lose or go home.

Quote:I'm glad your not a coach because I'm sure you would have thrown Shaq in there with 4 foul as well as Stan or Hall with the game on the line. What a great coach you would make.

If I was coaching I would most certainly have trust in all of my players or they wouldn’t be on my team. Like my sig says: “Always Expect The Unexpected”

I’m sure if you were a coach you wouldn’t have any top 25 wins either.

...that is unless you had 5 DJs.
01-22-2013 05:25 PM
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NTMB Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Small Ball
you're just being incoherent at this point buddy.
01-22-2013 05:27 PM
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Dat.B.Me Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Small Ball
Although Villanova played a near perfect game, not having a shot clock then was very key. Back then I saw teams hold the ball for 4 to 5 minutes per possession.
01-22-2013 05:35 PM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Small Ball
(01-22-2013 05:27 PM)NTMB Wrote:  you're just being incoherent at this point buddy.

Incoherent? 03-confused

Incoherent means unclear or incomprehensible and my replies have been A-B-C IMHO.

I can’t dumb it down much more than I already have, and I have gone out of my way to include more detail(s) than the usual one-liners.

Not understanding my position ain’t my bad.
01-22-2013 05:59 PM
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NTMB Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Small Ball
(01-22-2013 05:59 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  
(01-22-2013 05:27 PM)NTMB Wrote:  you're just being incoherent at this point buddy.

Incoherent? 03-confused

Incoherent means unclear or incomprehensible and my replies have been A-B-C IMHO.

I can’t dumb it down much more than I already have, and I have gone out of my way to include more detail(s) than the usual one-liners.

Not understanding my position ain’t my bad.

I understood your position with the very first post. Doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it. But your explanations are increasingly convoluted and irrelevant to the original point.

You think "small ball" is a recipe for disaster. You think Pastner chose to go small out of some deficiency in coaching ability. You think going small and winning is horrible because it foreshadows going small and losing.

I get it.
01-22-2013 06:03 PM
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TigerTimmy Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Small Ball
(01-22-2013 05:35 PM)Dat.B.Me Wrote:  Although Villanova played a near perfect game, not having a shot clock then was very key. Back then I saw teams hold the ball for 4 to 5 minutes per possession.

The NCAA introduced the shot clock in 1985.

Villanova ran their legendary 4 guard offense in the 2005/2006 season.

The dude who is saying Nova played 4 bigs must have never seen this team play. Duh, that is what they called it a 4 guard lineup. 4 guards and 1 big.
(This post was last modified: 01-22-2013 06:05 PM by TigerTimmy.)
01-22-2013 06:04 PM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Small Ball
(01-22-2013 06:03 PM)NTMB Wrote:  
(01-22-2013 05:59 PM)BealeStreetTiger Wrote:  
(01-22-2013 05:27 PM)NTMB Wrote:  you're just being incoherent at this point buddy.

Incoherent? 03-confused

Incoherent means unclear or incomprehensible and my replies have been A-B-C IMHO.

I can’t dumb it down much more than I already have, and I have gone out of my way to include more detail(s) than the usual one-liners.

Not understanding my position ain’t my bad.

I understood your position with the very first post. Doesn't mean I necessarily agree with it. But your explanations are increasingly convoluted and irrelevant to the original point.

You think "small ball" is a recipe for disaster. You think Pastner chose to go small out of some deficiency in coaching ability. You think going small and winning is horrible because it foreshadows going small and losing.

I get it.

No. I don’t think you do. Let me make it clearer.

If Shaq & Black are out for whatever reason we will probably go small…EVEN IF THE OTHER TEAM REAMINDS IN THEIR CURRENT SET AND ARE NOT PLAYING SMALL, WE WILL PROBABLY GO SMALL.

Facts don’t lie and Josh has a track record of doing this. As I said this is one of my few gripes with Josh and it is what it is. Josh also knows this and tried to land more quality bigs like Parker, Poythress, (ect), but it didn’t work out.

Going small down the road won't be a viable option to continue to win. Use what you have and find a way to make it work is all I’m saying.

He can do it and now is the time to start. Period.
01-22-2013 06:46 PM
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BealeStreetTiger Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Small Ball
(01-22-2013 06:04 PM)TigerTimmy Wrote:  
(01-22-2013 05:35 PM)Dat.B.Me Wrote:  Although Villanova played a near perfect game, not having a shot clock then was very key. Back then I saw teams hold the ball for 4 to 5 minutes per possession.

The NCAA introduced the shot clock in 1985.

Villanova ran their legendary 4 guard offense in the 2005/2006 season.

The dude who is saying Nova played 4 bigs must have never seen this team play. Duh, that is what they called it a 4 guard lineup. 4 guards and 1 big.

…and that particular Villanova team was very hard to beat. Tough as nails.
01-22-2013 06:49 PM
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