(01-11-2013 11:59 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote: While I would prefer to add no one, I think the writing is on the wall. The Big East needs a champ game for $$. That is why you're hearing Tulsa and UMass.
With SDSU in the fold the BigEast is only at 11 for 2013... Enter ECU or TU ahead of schedule
With SDSU out, enter ECU and TU ahead of schedule
With UL & Rutgers leaving in 2014 its back to 10 member... Enter Tulsa and UMass.
Navy is adamant about 2015 so these are the alternatives to keeping a CG.
A championship game for 2 years is not worth adding UMass. Does everyone not realize that this was a FCS school a couple of years ago? They have less than 10K showing up for football games. They are not in the Boston DMA.
If we add any schools we should add Tulsa and S Miss. Yes, its CUSA redux, but thats what the bottom line is anyway. We may as well take the two top football schools left available and move on. Twleve, 14--it doesnt really affect the payout that much. The money isnt going to be spectacular either way. The only thing left to gain realistically is exposure and a larger league with better football might be able to accomplish increased exposure.
The last thing we want is to be upstaged by CUSA's last 2 remaining signifcant football programs. Remove those two schools, and who is really going to be a consistant threat in CUSA to run the table?
I know I'm in a crappy mood the last couple of days . . . but I what is the infatuation with Conference USA? Get your head out of the sand. We got out of this conference because it is on the way down, while conference like the MAC or on the way up. . . The only saving grace here is that the MWC sucked even worse this year . .
With the money/prestige gap between the Power 5 and the Gang of 5 about to get even wider . . . the ability of Conference USA schools headed to the Big East to continue to effectively recruit is going to get even tougher even in a recruiting hotbed like the southeast . . .
More and more of those 3-stars and 4 stars recruits we sold on the ability to start as freshmen, are going to start choosing Big XII and SEC schools (or ACC, PAC-12, etc.) and wait to get their shot . . . you don't see 3-stars and 4-stars going to 1-AA programs even when they are promised to start as freshmen . . .
UH (and the other Big East newbies) need to separate ourselves so that we have something "unique" to sell . . . right now it's the chance to get on "national" television . . . that didn't happen a lot in Conference USA, and if you keep the band together, what makes you think it's going to happen just because you put the Big East name on it . . .
SAGRIN'S 2013 CONFERENCE RANKINGS:
1 SOUTHEASTERN 81.75
2 BIG 12 = 79.99
3 PAC-12 = 76.15
4 BIG TEN = 75.87
5 I-A INDEPENDENTS = 72.83
6 BIG EAST = 72.16
7 ATLANTIC COAST = 71.64
8 WESTERN ATHLETIC = 64.57
9 SUN BELT = 62.95
10 MID-AMERICAN = 62.60
11 CONFERENCE USA = 62.18
12 MISSOURI VALLEY = 61.53
13 MOUNTAIN WEST = 60.97
I actually dont differ that much from what you are saying. Once this started falling apart the only way to salvage something was to skim the top off CUSA and add to the remaining core of BE schools. Im sorry, Tulane is where the train left the track. Picking up S Miss, ECU, and Tulsa should have been the last CUSA schools grabbed. I had hoped to add some addiitonal MW schools, but thats dead. I wouldnt be opposed to lookign at the top MAC schools, but realisitically, theres not much there either.
This is what I have been saying for a year now. Staying east sounds great in theory, but the pool of replacement cadidates is very low at this point. Thats why the nationwide concept was so appealing to me. It opened up the pool to include schools like Air Force, Fresno, SDSU, and Boise. Thats why I pushed for an all-sports western division. If Boise and SDSU and Fresno were looking at making 5-7 million as all-sports members then the MW doesnt look all that exciting anymore. The western schools wouldnt be looking at cramming their sports into the crappy Big West. We would be offering nationwide football and basketball. People in Philly would be familiar with SDSU. People in San Diego would learn about ECU. It could have been great. Plus, we would have had divisions to control costs. It was doable....just no vision.
But that train has now left the station and where we are where we are. We move forward from here--prepare to be underwhelmed. I feel like are being led to the corner of the Animal House rush party where we will be meeting Jugdish, Sidney, and Clayton...
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2013 12:52 PM by Attackcoog.)
Someone needs to wake up Andrea and let her know that this meeting is about the buffet and pool, State already told them that they are moving on but still want a shot at taking the hotel bath robe as a parting gift.
(01-11-2013 11:08 AM)GTG Wrote: Stop at 10. It makes the most logical sense. Tulsa football may good, for C-USA, but that does not mean they are ready to put forth the funding to compete with the likes of the rest of the athletic departments in the nbe. Even Memphis is starting to spend money on football upgrades. Cincinnati has a stadium expansion plan in place and Houston is building a new stadium. I don't see Tulsa being able to build or expand under a strict athletic budget and limited fan and booster support.
"Tulsa football may good, for C-USA, but that does not mean they are ready to put forth the funding to compete with the likes of the rest of the athletic departments in the nbe." That's some funny stuff right there. Tulsa (and Southern Miss) would be in the top of the nBE TODAY in football performance on the field. Stay at 10, without good football programs like Tulsa and Southern Miss, and the nBE is not on the field with the MWC, but next door neighbors to CUSA.
Ever see how many oil wells are pumping within the Tulsa city limits?
I'm not advocating UMass. They've already been mentioned in the media.
(01-11-2013 12:14 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:
(01-11-2013 11:59 AM)FrancisDrake Wrote: While I would prefer to add no one, I think the writing is on the wall. The Big East needs a champ game for $$. That is why you're hearing Tulsa and UMass.
With SDSU in the fold the BigEast is only at 11 for 2013... Enter ECU or TU ahead of schedule
With SDSU out, enter ECU and TU ahead of schedule
With UL & Rutgers leaving in 2014 its back to 10 member... Enter Tulsa and UMass.
Navy is adamant about 2015 so these are the alternatives to keeping a CG.
A championship game for 2 years is not worth adding UMass. Does everyone not realize that this was a FCS school a couple of years ago? They have less than 10K showing up for football games. They are not in the Boston DMA.
If we add any schools we should add Tulsa and S Miss. Yes, its CUSA redux, but thats what the bottom line is anyway. We may as well take the two top football schools left available and move on. Twleve, 14--it doesnt really affect the payout that much. The money isnt going to be spectacular either way. The only thing left to gain realistically is exposure and a larger league with better football might be able to accomplish increased exposure.
The last thing we want is to be upstaged by CUSA's last 2 remaining signifcant football programs. Remove those two schools, and who is really going to be a consistant threat in CUSA to run the table?
(01-11-2013 12:32 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote: I'm not crazy about the idea of basketball schools after what just happened, but it's an idea worth exploring given the C7 projected numbers. Those numbers are based on a C7 with Butler, Xavier and three other high "mid-majors", so while we can sit around and pump ourselves up that UConn/Cincy/Memphis/Temple vs Georgetown/Villanova/St. Johns/Marquette is a wash, adding those other five schools moves the needle in the C7's favor quite a bit. Adding some top flight bball schools could help bolster the basketball part of the contract where we are getting paid more for basketball alone that the other four conference get paid for their entire programs. Like I said, not crazy about the idea, but I can see why it would be worth exploring.
If you are going to add BB schools add Villanova for FB and talk the current Catholic schools into staying. If Nova and G'town stay they all stay. Where are they going without Nova and G'town.
Georgetown and Nova are quite happy where their football is now, if they wanted to move up do you think they'd take the risk they are taking now by splitting off? The amount of money and effort to upgrade their programs isn't something one can snap their fingers at and make happen, it's not easy and it's not cheap.
Also, Nova to the BE was always a fool's mission and anyone could see they never took it seriously.
(01-11-2013 12:47 PM)UHCougar Wrote: I think the thing that is starting to resonate with me based on what I'm hearing is that the Big East presidents have "resigned themselves" to the fact that the conference can not move up in strength and still chase TV money . . . maybe things change when a TV deal gets done . . . but what I'm looking at right now even adding Tulsa, is a Sagrin's ranking somewhere in the mid- to upper-60s every year . . . and after 3-5 years of that, the Big East will be viewed no differently as the rest of the Gang of 5 . . . we are fooling ourselves if we think we stay above 70 . . . when the apocalypse comes and the Power 5 vote again . . . there will be no BCS Bowl access for anyone in the Gang of 5, and then we might as well be 1-AA . . .
My point . . . I hate Boise State . . .
Agreed. My feeling was the only hope was a national conference with the very best of what is left.
The Mountain West and Big East competing against each other for survival is just going to drop them down to a level where they are considered equal to a MAC or Sun Belt Conference.
Obviously a national conference would still be swimming upstream against the Power 5, so basketball would have to come into play to remain in the game competition-wise.
Right now, the Mtn West is the #2 rated conference (Sagarin) in basketball, but can't showcase it because of the lack of TV sets and a television deal that is too low.
So, what gives? Neither the Mountain West nor Big East honchos want to lose their jobs...
(This post was last modified: 01-11-2013 01:02 PM by Topkat.)
(01-11-2013 12:50 PM)Attackcoog Wrote: But that train has now left the station and where we are where we are. We move forward from here--prepare to be underwhelmed. I feel like are being led to the corner of the Animal House rush party where we will be meeting Mohammad, Jugdish, Sidney, and Clayton...
(01-11-2013 12:06 PM)UHCougar Wrote: My MWC folks have gotten quite . . . UH isn't much better, but here is what I was told this morning by the only one at UH still providing specifics:
* SDSU told the Big East that SDSU is going back to the MWC, pending a vote by the MWC presidents. They came to Dallas only because technically the MWC has not voted yet to invite them. SDSU is "respected by everyone in the room;"
* BYU told the MWC no. BYU remained "inflexible" in its demands to control all of its media rights. It offered to not take any national TV bonuses on other games. "Thompson promised what he couldn't deliver." BYU never wanted anything more than an "affiliation" to gain access to the BCS Bowl, which they proposed to split with the conference, nothing more. The MWC presidents were split over BYU. I do not know who supported what.
* The MWC offered BYU and UH (and they think everyone in the conference) that the MWC would waive exit fees if they left to join a Power 5 Conference;
* UH and SMU is staying in the Big East;
* Every one in the Big East has "resigned themselves" that new additions will come from Conference USA for now. Aresco has said the TV numbers don't work for MAC schools. UMass lacks internal administration, big donor, and alumni support to commit long-term at the level it is being asked to commit. Average attendance levels at Gillette was the deciding factor because UMass could offer no explanation of how it plans to increase attendance "dramatically;"
* Aresco is telling conference presidents that adding new FBS schools with "growth potential" like ODU, James Madison, UTSA, etc. despite expected attendance over 30,000 at some is not well-received at this time by TV partners;
* Tulsa is a certainty even if SDSU flips. Tulsa is favored because of its academic reputation and success on the field, but mostly because it completes a "western division" of Tulsa, UH, SMU, Tulane, Memphis, and Cincinnati. Tulsa comes in 2014. Tulsa also completes the core of schools that the remaining conference leaders USF, UCF, UH, SMU, and ECU want to move forward on their own if UConn, Cinncinnati, Navy, leave. . . Southern Mississippi has no support by existing Big East presidents or Areasco at this time . . .
* Navy is still committed, but can not come before 2015;
* The conference will be a 12-team conference;
* A key discussion point is whether to bolster the basketball strength by adding 2-4 schools like St. Louis, VCU, Wichita State, Belmont, etc. There is no consensus on who to invite if this is done;
And for what it's worth . . . the PAC-12's Larry Scott told Dr. Khator this week that for now, UH is first on his list if they expand because of the "enormous potential" at Houston . . . SMU is not a consideration at this time . . . if this happens, "it happens in the next two years, or it never happens" . . .
Lots of good information, thanks. One point I like seeing at least discussed is the addition of olympic sport members to boost the basketball product. Basketball is unique because there are nationally prominent programs that could be considered that don’t have football programs associated with them, Butler and VCU are 2 prime examples.
I think the key at is the time frame for adding ECU as a full member. If it’s not something on the short term plan then I am all for adding 2 basketball schools to combine with Navy and ECU football to make a 12 team conference on both the basketball and football sides.
The contract rumors for the C7 shows that there is obvious value in having a deep strong basketball conference the BE could potentially be leaving money on the table if they don’t at least explore that option.
I could absolutely see Houston backing its way into the PAC12 if the Big12 holds together. If the end game is 4 or 5 major conferences splitting to form a new division with full cost scholarships the "haves" will have to take most of the schools that can afford it with them. The PAC could take UH, BSU, UNLV, and Hawaii though academics outside of Houston become an issue. B1G and Big12 tear apart the ACC, left overs join us here in the Big East and you've got 5, 16 team conferences consisting of most every school who can pay to play.
(01-11-2013 12:17 PM)FULL_MONTY Wrote: I am sorry, is the BE a bunch of rubes? So SDSU says, hey were going to the MW pending a vote, but were still coming to big D to see you all and hear what is going on?
State may very well go back (please God no), but a decision has not been made otherwise they would not be in Big D unless every BE president lost their mind.
So I think your sources are wrong, unless we have suspended basic common sense.
FULL MONTY - I understand that you support SDSU staying the Big East (which is fine), but you're sounding like some of the Georgetown fans that were completely convinced that the Catholic 7 wouldn't split off ("We'll be midmajors playing the likes of Butler! The humanity!") or the Boise State fans that said that they couldn't back to the MWC ("We'd never go backwards and they didn't allow us to wear blue uniforms!") despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The C7 (and presumably Boise State) still had meetings with the Big East despite having their minds 99.9% made up - they were performing a professional courtesy by still having those meetings, yet they effectively knew the outcome. Obviously, nothing is official until you see the SDSU president having a joint press conference with the MWC commissioner, but "common sense" is that the writing has certainly been on the wall ever since Boise State made its decision.
(01-11-2013 12:17 PM)FULL_MONTY Wrote: I am sorry, is the BE a bunch of rubes? So SDSU says, hey were going to the MW pending a vote, but were still coming to big D to see you all and hear what is going on?
State may very well go back (please God no), but a decision has not been made otherwise they would not be in Big D unless every BE president lost their mind.
So I think your sources are wrong, unless we have suspended basic common sense.
Well, we're not hearing a lot from Aresco League sources about having a really great plan to present to SDSU to get them to stay, or expressing any confidence that they can be convinced to stay. It's more the temperature of "They're welcome to stay if they want, but if they want to go they want to go."
Which sounds a lot like SDSU is going to listen just in case Aresco reads the board and uses my ideas, but more likely to have the courtesy to tell the other AD's and Presidents in person.
(01-11-2013 12:17 PM)FULL_MONTY Wrote: I am sorry, is the BE a bunch of rubes? So SDSU says, hey were going to the MW pending a vote, but were still coming to big D to see you all and hear what is going on?
State may very well go back (please God no), but a decision has not been made otherwise they would not be in Big D unless every BE president lost their mind.
So I think your sources are wrong, unless we have suspended basic common sense.
Well, we're not hearing a lot from Aresco League sources about having a really great plan to present to SDSU to get them to stay, or expressing any confidence that they can be convinced to stay. It's more the temperature of "They're welcome to stay if they want, but if they want to go they want to go."
Which sounds a lot like SDSU is going to listen just in case Aresco reads the board and uses my ideas, but more likely to have the courtesy to tell the other AD's and Presidents in person.
I'm not sure why Fresno, UNLV, and SDSU want to be the the MWC, if they continue to stay there thats where they will be forever. They need to get away from the WAC/MWC Mold....Look what its provided them the last 30 years, nothing......
SDSU isn't enamored with anything about the MWC situation, but being an extreme geographic outlier in the Big East and putting their basketball in a much lesser conference isn't a great solution unless the money is terrific. They will go back to the MWC but won't be happy about it.
Tulsa over Southern Miss is a no-brainer. There is just no TV appeal or market for Southern Miss, unfortunately, and they have always operated on a shoestring budget there.
Well, bummer if we are forced to go back to the MWC. I really wish that Aresco would have made a move to get UNLV and Fresno State (I don't know that he didn't) while the BE still had Boise State. If a national all sport conference, with a true western division, could have been formed this would have been the 6th best conference. As of now I don't know who is going be better... The NBE or the MWC.
(01-11-2013 12:17 PM)FULL_MONTY Wrote: I am sorry, is the BE a bunch of rubes? So SDSU says, hey were going to the MW pending a vote, but were still coming to big D to see you all and hear what is going on?
State may very well go back (please God no), but a decision has not been made otherwise they would not be in Big D unless every BE president lost their mind.
So I think your sources are wrong, unless we have suspended basic common sense.
FULL MONTY - I understand that you support SDSU staying the Big East (which is fine), but you're sounding like some of the Georgetown fans that were completely convinced that the Catholic 7 wouldn't split off ("We'll be midmajors playing the likes of Butler! The humanity!") or the Boise State fans that said that they couldn't back to the MWC ("We'd never go backwards and they didn't allow us to wear blue uniforms!") despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The C7 (and presumably Boise State) still had meetings with the Big East despite having their minds 99.9% made up - they were performing a professional courtesy by still having those meetings, yet they effectively knew the outcome. Obviously, nothing is official until you see the SDSU president having a joint press conference with the MWC commissioner, but "common sense" is that the writing has certainly been on the wall ever since Boise State made its decision.
Certainly. And if you read my post, you will see that State may very well go back. Did not deny that it is an option (don't want it to happen).
So you should read what I wrote and comment on that and not what you think I wrote.
But the idea that State told the BE that it was going back, but since the MW haven't voted on it we are showing up in Big D anyway defies common sense.
Wouldn't common sense be wait until after they voted to tell the BE, hey were going back? Why say it before the vote?
And why would the BE allow a "Competitor" if State gave notice be anywhere near those meetings.
State may go, but the scenario above defies common sense.
(01-11-2013 12:06 PM)UHCougar Wrote: My MWC folks have gotten quite . . . UH isn't much better, but here is what I was told this morning by the only one at UH still providing specifics:
* SDSU told the Big East that SDSU is going back to the MWC, pending a vote by the MWC presidents. They came to Dallas only because technically the MWC has not voted yet to invite them. SDSU is "respected by everyone in the room;"
* BYU told the MWC no. BYU remained "inflexible" in its demands to control all of its media rights. It offered to not take any national TV bonuses on other games. "Thompson promised what he couldn't deliver." BYU never wanted anything more than an "affiliation" to gain access to the BCS Bowl, which they proposed to split with the conference, nothing more. The MWC presidents were split over BYU. I do not know who supported what.
* The MWC offered BYU and UH (and they think everyone in the conference) that the MWC would waive exit fees if they left to join a Power 5 Conference;
* UH and SMU is staying in the Big East;
* Every one in the Big East has "resigned themselves" that new additions will come from Conference USA for now. Aresco has said the TV numbers don't work for MAC schools. UMass lacks internal administration, big donor, and alumni support to commit long-term at the level it is being asked to commit. Average attendance levels at Gillette was the deciding factor because UMass could offer no explanation of how it plans to increase attendance "dramatically;"
* Aresco is telling conference presidents that adding new FBS schools with "growth potential" like ODU, James Madison, UTSA, etc. despite expected attendance over 30,000 at some is not well-received at this time by TV partners;
* Tulsa is a certainty even if SDSU flips. Tulsa is favored because of its academic reputation and success on the field, but mostly because it completes a "western division" of Tulsa, UH, SMU, Tulane, Memphis, and Cincinnati. Tulsa comes in 2014. Tulsa also completes the core of schools that the remaining conference leaders USF, UCF, UH, SMU, and ECU want to move forward on their own if UConn, Cinncinnati, Navy, leave. . . Southern Mississippi has no support by existing Big East presidents or Areasco at this time . . .
* Navy is still committed, but can not come before 2015;
* The conference will be a 12-team conference;
* A key discussion point is whether to bolster the basketball strength by adding 2-4 schools like St. Louis, VCU, Wichita State, Belmont, etc. There is no consensus on who to invite if this is done;
And for what it's worth . . . the PAC-12's Larry Scott told Dr. Khator this week that for now, UH is first on his list if they expand because of the "enormous potential" at Houston . . . SMU is not a consideration at this time . . . if this happens, "it happens in the next two years, or it never happens" . . .
No wonder you're pissed.
CUSA schools all leaving for a better future . . . . in CUSA.
Kinda like immigrants who leave their homeland for a brighter tomorrow in America only to have the boat lost at sea and eventually land back in their home country.
It will be alright, games will be played. It was just a lot of movement, millions of dollars racked up in exit fees and entry fees for a set-up that is really no different than before Dec 2011. The MWC is still basically the MWC and the CUSA basically CUSA+.
Have beer, go to your favorite Mexican restaurant and enjoy the weekend!
(01-11-2013 12:06 PM)UHCougar Wrote: My MWC folks have gotten quite . . . UH isn't much better, but here is what I was told this morning by the only one at UH still providing specifics:
* SDSU told the Big East that SDSU is going back to the MWC, pending a vote by the MWC presidents. They came to Dallas only because technically the MWC has not voted yet to invite them. SDSU is "respected by everyone in the room;"
* BYU told the MWC no. BYU remained "inflexible" in its demands to control all of its media rights. It offered to not take any national TV bonuses on other games. "Thompson promised what he couldn't deliver." BYU never wanted anything more than an "affiliation" to gain access to the BCS Bowl, which they proposed to split with the conference, nothing more. The MWC presidents were split over BYU. I do not know who supported what.
* The MWC offered BYU and UH (and they think everyone in the conference) that the MWC would waive exit fees if they left to join a Power 5 Conference;
* UH and SMU is staying in the Big East;
* Every one in the Big East has "resigned themselves" that new additions will come from Conference USA for now. Aresco has said the TV numbers don't work for MAC schools. UMass lacks internal administration, big donor, and alumni support to commit long-term at the level it is being asked to commit. Average attendance levels at Gillette was the deciding factor because UMass could offer no explanation of how it plans to increase attendance "dramatically;"
* Aresco is telling conference presidents that adding new FBS schools with "growth potential" like ODU, James Madison, UTSA, etc. despite expected attendance over 30,000 at some is not well-received at this time by TV partners;
* Tulsa is a certainty even if SDSU flips. Tulsa is favored because of its academic reputation and success on the field, but mostly because it completes a "western division" of Tulsa, UH, SMU, Tulane, Memphis, and Cincinnati. Tulsa comes in 2014. Tulsa also completes the core of schools that the remaining conference leaders USF, UCF, UH, SMU, and ECU want to move forward on their own if UConn, Cinncinnati, Navy, leave. . . Southern Mississippi has no support by existing Big East presidents or Areasco at this time . . .
* Navy is still committed, but can not come before 2015;
* The conference will be a 12-team conference;
* A key discussion point is whether to bolster the basketball strength by adding 2-4 schools like St. Louis, VCU, Wichita State, Belmont, etc. There is no consensus on who to invite if this is done;
And for what it's worth . . . the PAC-12's Larry Scott told Dr. Khator this week that for now, UH is first on his list if they expand because of the "enormous potential" at Houston . . . SMU is not a consideration at this time . . . if this happens, "it happens in the next two years, or it never happens" . . .
No wonder you're pissed.
CUSA schools all leaving for a better future . . . . in CUSA.
Kinda like immigrants who leave their homeland for a brighter tomorrow in America only to have the boat lost at sea and eventually land back in their home country.
It will be alright, games will be played. It was just a lot of movement, millions of dollars racked up in exit fees and entry fees for a set-up that is really no different than before Dec 2011. The MWC is still basically the MWC and the CUSA basically CUSA+.
Have beer, go to your favorite Mexican restaurant and enjoy the weekend!
More likely that left their homeland to have a brighter future only to see America turn into the country they just left.
(01-11-2013 01:28 PM)Time4Reason Wrote: SDSU isn't enamored with anything about the MWC situation, but being an extreme geographic outlier in the Big East and putting their basketball in a much lesser conference isn't a great solution unless the money is terrific. They will go back to the MWC but won't be happy about it.
Tulsa over Southern Miss is a no-brainer. There is just no TV appeal or market for Southern Miss, unfortunately, and they have always operated on a shoestring budget there.
Well, I guess that you will have to ask ESPN about that. As of 2 years ago they posted that 2 of their 3 and 3 of their 5 highest rated games between non-AQ teams involved SouthernMiss.
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CBS/MWC Says Big East is prepared to move on
