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Morris was the ace of the staff on 4 World Series teams.

16 year career
Win–loss record 254–186
Earned run average 3.90
Strikeouts 2,478

They are saying Greg Maddux is a shoe in for next year.
Maddux was a starter for the Braves in one World Series.

22 year career
Win–loss record 355–227
Earned run average 3.16
Strikeouts 3,371

Morris won stuff. Maddux compiled impressive stats over a long drawn out career, but didn't really help his teams to much hardware or pitch in the big games.

The lazy azz writers are focusing too much on stats and not enough on results.

It's hard not to say Maddux was a better pitcher. Put up better numbers in a higher-offense era.

One pitcher can't win a World Series. Not saying Morris should or shouldn't be in (he's definition of borderline IMO), but Maddux definitely should be a shoe-in.

Jack WON a world series basically on his own, after being a Tiger. It's not an accident, Jack didn't cow tow to the media in his playing days.

I think Morris will -- and probably should -- eventually get in. But he was not better than Greg Maddux. I can't quite believe anyone would seriously make that argument.

I've never heard anyone suggest that Maddux kowtowed to the media, either. But he is a friendly, laid-back sort of guy. I won't deny that probably does make a marginal difference among a few voters in stuff like this.

Mainly, I am just glad that Bonds & McGwire not only didn't get it, but didn't even come close to getting in. McGwire will probably never make it. With Bonds, there is a possibility that some voters want him to ultimately make it to Cooperstown, but also want to make him wait for a while. The psychology of the athlete-media relationship can definitely get complicated, and we'll see what happens with future balloting.

There is no planet on which Jack Morris was better than Greg Maddux. Maddux's peak was longer, not to mention better, and in a much tougher era for pitchers. His World Series ERA is actually nearly a full run lower than Morris'. Not his fault he didn't get run support and win more titles. They each appeared in three World Series, so to suggest Morris pitched in more big games is just wrong. People get warm and fuzzy about Morris because they remember how good he was in the World Series with the Tigers and Twins, but they conveniently forget his terrible postseason performances in '87 and '92. Also, big postseasons doesn't equate to Hall of Famer- otherwise David Freese would be a shoe-in someday.

That's not to say Morris wasn't a darn good pitcher. He was very good. I don't think Morris got screwed. I personally think he was the second best pitcher on the ballot this year. Curt Schilling has every bit as much a case, if not more, than Morris.

Maddux was a regular season wonder. Jack delivered.

In 29 postseason games with Atlanta, Maddux had a 2.81 ERA and a 1.19 WHIP, but just an 11–13 record.




Morris: 1.26 WHIP 3.86 ERA W 7 L 4

Maddux's ERA was more than a run per game lower.

Are we really still evaluating pitchers based on team wins?

Let's do a comparison:

Greg Maddux:

Wins: 355
Winning Percentage: .610
ERA: 3.16
Seasons with ERA under 3.00: 10
Strikeouts: 3,371
15+ wins in 17 straight seasons
Led league in ERA four times
Seven straight seasons with ERA under 3.00- in the height of the steroid era, no less
Led league in WHIP four times
Led league in IP five times
Four Cy Youngs
Finished in top 5 of Cy Young Voting five other times
18 Gold Gloves (including 13 straight)
Career WAR: 99.4
Best season WAR: 9.5
13 Postseason Appearances
Postseason record: 11-14
Postseason ERA: 3.27
World Series Record: 2-3
World Series ERA: 2.09
One World Series Title (ERA's in two WS losses- 2.57 and 1.72)
Part of Braves teams that won NL East every year he was there

Jack Morris:
Wins: 254
Winning Percentage: .577
ERA: 3.90
Seasons with ERA under 3.00: 0
Strikeouts: 2,478
15+ wins in eight straight seasons
Never lead league in ERA
Never led league in WHIP
Led league in IP once
Cy Youngs: 0
Top five in Cy Young voting five times- best finish was third
No Gold Gloves
Career WAR: 39.3
Best season WAR: 5.6
Pitched in four postseasons
Postseason record: 7-4
Postseason ERA: 3.80
World Series record: 4-2
Postseason ERA: 2.96
Three World Series titles (despite 0-2, 8.44 ERA performance in '92 WS- both of team's losses)

This really shouldn't even be that much of a debate.

It's not a debate. Maddux was unbelievable to watch.

That being said....Morris should be in the HOF.

The whole voting process and what's going on is starting to annoy me. It's deeply flawed to the core.

Maddox was the Charles Barkley of baseball. Great talent, didn't really carry his team to anything.

(01-10-2013 12:40 PM)EA3 Wrote:  It's not a debate. Maddux was unbelievable to watch.

That being said....Morris should be in the HOF.

The whole voting process and what's going on is starting to annoy me. It's deeply flawed to the core.

Reporters in search of relevance, they're dropping faster than you can say, "go apply to sell used cars".

(01-10-2013 02:17 PM)DesertBronco Wrote:  

(01-10-2013 12:40 PM)EA3 Wrote:  It's not a debate. Maddux was unbelievable to watch.

That being said....Morris should be in the HOF.

The whole voting process and what's going on is starting to annoy me. It's deeply flawed to the core.

Reporters in search of relevance, they're dropping faster than you can say, "go apply to sell used cars".

^this

Greg Maddux was unbelievable. I don't see how a pitcher can be any more reliable to his team (see Justin Verlander). You only get to play 20% of your team's games. If your team sucks (Felix Hernandez in Seattle), you can only do so much.

That said, Morris should be in the Hall too. But it isn't a debate on who is better, it just isn't

(01-10-2013 02:11 PM)Chipdip Wrote:  Maddox was the Charles Barkley of baseball. Great talent, didn't really carry his team to anything.

Maddux won a title and was fantastic in every one of his World Series starts. What more do you want? He can't pitch every game, bat 27 times e and score runs for himself. He had the misfortune of facing the late-90s Yankees dynasty that won four WS title in five years and appeared in five of six. His teammates didn't score runs for him and didn't come through in the other games.