Why is the current hybrid BE conference doomed to fail?

I see plenty of discussion as to how the conference should be split, which team(s) could be added after the split and financial considerations after a split. I may need to go back many threads but I am not sure I would agree with the basic premise that the current BE hybrid will fail. The only big negative I see is the BB scheduling nightmare but I would like to think that after a few years it can be straightened out.

There are TV contracts for BB that would need to be reformed after any division and these MAY not work out. I'm not sure there would be a significant increase in BB revenue with a split. I see many BE non-Division 1-A football schools adding the quality of the conference in basketball as well as other sports. I see no reason to believe that BE football schools would be more likely to leave either with or without a split.

What are the pros and cons of why the BE has to be split in the first place?

The scheduling of league games from the current 16 game schedule to an 18 game schedule is being thought about actively.(play each school once (15 games) and play 3 schools twice(3games)).
Secondly bring all 16 games to the BE tournament.
Thirdly package the BE bb tv with the BE football tv to maximize value.(only the 8 football teams would receive football money)

tigersharktwo Wrote:The scheduling of league games from the current 16 game schedule to an 18 game schedule is being thought about actively.(play each school once (15 games) and play 3 schools twice(3games)).
Secondly bring all 16 games to the BE tournament.

If this could not be worked out I would think that 2 divisions could be formed in an attempt to balance schedules. You could then either send all teams to the BE tournament or have play in games with a lesser amount meeting at MSG.

On another thread I've seen it stated that most fans of 1A football schools want a split from non 1A football schools. I wonder how true that really is?

One obvious reason is splitting the pot 16 ways when it could be split 9/10(8/9+ND) ways.

Without includeing ND and the new members, the football schools earn about 80 percent of the NCAA credits and take up 70+percent of the TV slots the last 5 years

People love to bring markets as the reason the b-ball schools as advantages but in the end there's no proof that they add more than they take.

As a New Yorker, I've already explained how St John's isn't even the 5th most popular school in NYC. No St JOhns does not hurt the Big East much at all since 2 or 3 football BE teams are already more popular in the NYC market. Uconn, Rutgers and Cuse are as much part of the NYC market as St JOhns. Heck the most popular radio talk show in NYC, Mike and the Maddog considers Uconn a "New York Team". The insight.com bowl, which Rutgers played in, did great in the NYC market.

Marquette and Depaul have never attributed much to the BE contract to start with since they just joined but consider they both in the smack of Big 10 country, I really don't think it matters if they're the local team. Its not like Houston and UTEP matter in HOuston and Tempe. Its still Big 12 country there.

I don't think I even need to explain how little Providence and Seton Hall adds to the League.

The only two that I'm not sure about is Villanova and Georgetown. Back in the 80s and early 90s these two schools got a lot of support from the local community. The problem is from what I've heard DC have offically became ACC region with the recent faillings of GT and the rise of UMD. Plus the with ESPN's and the general media's extreme ACC bias, its gonna be really difficult to retake that region.

As for Villanova and philly, I have no clue how the citizen of philly reacts to Villanova. Philly is as much of a pro market as any other city, do they even care about college sports? Also if seems hard to ever get a non-bias response out of thaere. St Joe's and Temple fans will greatly underrate Villanova's stature as a Philly team while Villanova fans speak themselves as the college versio. of the sixers.

The TV contract will not be 43 (7/16) percent less without the basketball schools. Uconn, Cuse, Louisville, ND, Pitt, WVa, Cinci playing each other twice have more than enough national power to command a good contract. Heck IMO it has more appeal than the current BE conference. ESPN seem to think so too with how they force the BE to schedule and what games ESPN shows on TV in the last 5 years. Also consider the markets the ACC and SEC holds. Those aren't exactly a lot of big markets there. The markets the football school hold is more than comparable.

As for football advantages, just having most of the league have the same agenda is a big improvement. Also with only 9 teams in basketball instead of 16 it allows immediate additions to a 8 team football conference if need be. (which I believe they need one more but if they don't take one more thats fine with me)

robertandjody Wrote:Why is the current hybrid BE conference doomed to fail?

What are the pros and cons of why the BE has to be split in the first place?

The core of the issue concerns the health of the football conference. Many feel the smaller size of the conference has disadvantages compared to the other "BCS" conferences, such as:

- Fewer high profile match-ups = less exposure = smaller TV contracts;
- Imbalanced conference schedule/ Need for more out of conference games which generally costs $ and time.
- Less representation on the 1-A Admin Council;
- The percieved relative weakness of the football league;
- The percieved relative weakness of BE fans to support better bowl deals

Most ideas for strengthening the football side include possible expansion of membership, but obviously that would be tough to swing under the current configuration. Thus the idea that if the 1-A schools feel the need to do something to protect their football interests they may have to do so independent from the non 1-A members. This idea is also the reason DePaul and Marquette were added: Otherwise unnecessary add-ons that were required by the non 1-A schools in order to maintain parity among the BE voting membership.

There's also the matter of exposure for basketball, but we're waiting to see how that plays out.

GunnerFan Wrote:Most ideas for strengthening the football side include possible expansion of membership, but obviously that would be tough to swing under the current configuration. Thus the idea that if the 1-A schools feel the need to do something to protect their football interests they may have to do so independent from the non 1-A members. This idea is also the reason DePaul and Marquette were added: Otherwise unnecessary add-ons that were required by the non 1-A schools in order to maintain parity among the BE voting membership.

There's also the matter of exposure for basketball, but we're waiting to see how that plays out.

I'm not sure I see how a larger non 1A voting block can hurt the football squads. Seeing the BE BCS football schools succeed adds to the prestige of all members of conference. It seems to be in their best interest to have the football schools do well.

Splitting to add another school only makes sense to me if it adds to the prestige/quality of the conference. The big teams (ND, PSU....) aren't coming. Down the road there may be teams to add but nobody from a non BCS school is there yet.

ccbfan Wrote:The TV contract will not be 43 (7/16) percent less without the basketball schools. Uconn, Cuse, Louisville, ND, Pitt, WVa, Cinci playing each other twice have more than enough national power to command a good contract. .........As for football advantages, just having most of the league have the same agenda is a big improvement. Also with only 9 teams in basketball instead of 16 it allows immediate additions to a 8 team football conference if need be. (which I believe they need one more but if they don't take one more thats fine with me)

The 1A football schools are doing well in BB now but who knows what will play out down the road. I don't think the balance in quality of the two sides is overwhelming when you look at the long term. You mentioned Seton Hall and Providence but on the other side you have to look at Rutgers and South Florida and their histories. You could make a case that in the last 10 years WVU, Notre Dame could be compared with Marquette, Depaul when judging their performance over many years. Just like we wanted people to look at the long term when viewing teams like Syracuse, Pitt in the football BE we should do the same with teams like Seton Hall and St. Johns in BB.

What we want and what we get is very different.

I would love for SU and Pitt to have as much power as a football elite as their past history entitles them to but the fact still remains, school with recent success like Va Tech is viewed in a much better way.

Also, its getting harder and harder for basketball schools to compete. The last non-BCS school to win is UNLV in 1990. In the last 10 years, I total of 2 non-football school have reached the final 4 in Umass and Marquette. The gap is still widening. The fall of the basketball schools is not an anomaly but a trend. While there's still a few basketball schools that will succeed few year the majority have become 2nd tier citizens in the college basketball world.

The playing field is just too uneven at this point.

ccbfan Wrote:What we want and what we get is very different.
I would love for SU and Pitt to have as much power as a football elite as their past history entitles them to but the fact still remains, school with recent success like Va Tech is viewed in a much better way.

The top programs are certainly viewed positively but when forming conferences you have to take a longer view. Look at the rise and fall and rise of programs such as Nebraska and WVU. Program success comes and goes for many schools. The fact that they are in the BE gives BB teams such as St. Johns and Providence the ability to recruit quality players which could lead them to have good runs. They would struggle outside the BE or in a watered down version of the BE, however.

Call me naive but I would not like to see the BE football schools do anything that was negative to the other schools unless absolutely necessary. The BE non 1A schools did accept several programs into the BB conference. I wonder if several of schools were uncertain of the move due to fear that this type of split could occur?

robertandjody Wrote:Call me naive but I would not like to see the BE football schools do anything that was negative to the other schools unless absolutely necessary. The BE non 1A schools did accept several programs into the BB conference. I wonder if several of schools were uncertain of the move due to fear that this type of split could occur?

They know the split will happen and they have 7 for sure BB schools when the split happens. They are unsure about ND.

Some are obsessed with spliting and hybrids.Others want to win and maximize the revenue of the schools to build more powerful winning teams.

robertandjody Wrote:

ccbfan Wrote:What we want and what we get is very different.
I would love for SU and Pitt to have as much power as a football elite as their past history entitles them to but the fact still remains, school with recent success like Va Tech is viewed in a much better way.

The top programs are certainly viewed positively but when forming conferences you have to take a longer view. Look at the rise and fall and rise of programs such as Nebraska and WVU. Program success comes and goes for many schools. The fact that they are in the BE gives BB teams such as St. Johns and Providence the ability to recruit quality players which could lead them to have good runs. They would struggle outside the BE or in a watered down version of the BE, however.

Call me naive but I would not like to see the BE football schools do anything that was negative to the other schools unless absolutely necessary. The BE non 1A schools did accept several programs into the BB conference. I wonder if several of schools were uncertain of the move due to fear that this type of split could occur?

This notion of good will for the sake of good will would put the football members in the same boat they were in before the Big East was raided. If those 8 programs want to maximize revenue and remain as relevant as the other 5 BCS leagues they must form a cohesive group of like minded institutions. A hodge podge of programs with competing interests is not ideal.

And the comparison of SU football to Saint Johns basketball is absurd to be frank. Looking at the landscape of college basketball over the last 20 years proves one thing. If you aren't playing football your chances of reaching the final four are nill with rare exception. Football just injects too much money into the pot of the basketball programs to allow basketball only revenue streams to be regularly competitive.

L-yes Wrote:

robertandjody Wrote:

ccbfan Wrote:What we want and what we get is very different.
I would love for SU and Pitt to have as much power as a football elite as their past history entitles them to but the fact still remains, school with recent success like Va Tech is viewed in a much better way.

The top programs are certainly viewed positively but when forming conferences you have to take a longer view. Look at the rise and fall and rise of programs such as Nebraska and WVU. Program success comes and goes for many schools. The fact that they are in the BE gives BB teams such as St. Johns and Providence the ability to recruit quality players which could lead them to have good runs. They would struggle outside the BE or in a watered down version of the BE, however.

Call me naive but I would not like to see the BE football schools do anything that was negative to the other schools unless absolutely necessary. The BE non 1A schools did accept several programs into the BB conference. I wonder if several of schools were uncertain of the move due to fear that this type of split could occur?

This notion of good will for the sake of good will would put the football members in the same boat they were in before the Big East was raided. If those 8 programs want to maximize revenue and remain as relevant as the other 5 BCS leagues they must form a cohesive group of like minded institutions. A hodge podge of programs with competing interests is not ideal.

And the comparison of SU football to Saint Johns basketball is absurd to be frank. Looking at the landscape of college basketball over the last 20 years proves one thing. If you aren't playing football your chances of reaching the final four are nill with rare exception. Football just injects too much money into the pot of the basketball programs to allow basketball only revenue streams to be regularly competitive.

Last paragraph makes a strong point.

Football Profits for Top Programs DWARFS what some of the non-Div I-A Football Hoop Programs can bring in on their own.

Having both a strong Football and Basketball Program...means that school can get major airtime National from Sept to March.

That exposure helps ALL Sports Programs...(obviously Football and Hoops).

KL

L-yes Wrote:This notion of good will for the sake of good will would put the football members in the same boat they were in before the Big East was raided. If those 8 programs want to maximize revenue and remain as relevant as the other 5 BCS leagues they must form a cohesive group of like minded institutions. A hodge podge of programs with competing interests is not ideal.

And the comparison of SU football to Saint Johns basketball is absurd to be frank. Looking at the landscape of college basketball over the last 20 years proves one thing. If you aren't playing football your chances of reaching the final four are nill with rare exception. Football just injects too much money into the pot of the basketball programs to allow basketball only revenue streams to be regularly competitive.

I do not believe that the Big East's hybrid nature was the primary reason for Miami and the others leaving the conference. If that was the case Miami could have attempted to initiate a split. I would think other football schools would have gone along with them. We would then be discussing Louisville joining this new "EAC" conference. For whatever reason they found the ACC was a better conference choice for them.

The St. Johns basketball team had some pretty good teams in the 90's and early 00's but has struggled of late. The Syracuse football team also had good teams in the 90's, early 00's but has struggled the last few years. The comparison is far from absurd. I do not agree that only programs with successful football programs can succeed at basketball. If that was the case there would be no teams like Gonzaga, Villanova or George Washington. Other teams such as Duke and Indiana do well even with poor football programs. A lot has to do with how dedicated you are to succeed.

There is no doubt that I view how you win to be more important then just winning. I am certain that I would lose interest in a conference that reverted to back stabbing in order to succeed. What the Big East has done so far appears to be working. The BCS bid is in good shape. The basketball conference is at or near the top. Many successes in all sports. I don't think any changes are urgent.

Quote: do not believe that the Big East's hybrid nature was the primary reason for Miami and the others leaving the conference. If that was the case Miami could have attempted to initiate a split. I would think other football schools would have gone along with them. We would then be discussing Louisville joining this new "EAC" conference. For whatever reason they found the ACC was a better conference choice for them.

-- Articles I read at the time basically said Miami was upset at the amound of influence the non football playing members had in the league...again...If the BE football schools were able to convince FSU to join them....almost all of the bball onlys would have voted "no" on the issue...How would it help them to have FSU bball in the league?

-- As to why the football schools didn't take Miami's threats seriously...that would be a question that perhaps Gunner Fan or Omnicarrier can answer...but Boston College, Pitt and Syracuse have always been very comfortable with the non fooball playing members...and I think its safe to say that an Eastern all sports league was never a high priority for those three instituions

Quote:The St. Johns basketball team had some pretty good teams in the 90's and early 00's but has struggled of late. The Syracuse football team also had good teams in the 90's, early 00's but has struggled the last few years. The comparison is far from absurd. I do not agree that only programs with successful football programs can succeed at basketball. If that was the case there would be no teams like Gonzaga, Villanova or George Washington. Other teams such as Duke and Indiana do well even with poor football programs. A lot has to do with how dedicated you are to succeed.

-- No...you don't need a succesfull football program...but you do need a football program...Duke and Indiana get BCS checks too...when was the last team to win the national title that didn't have a football team?


Jackson

robertandjody Wrote:

L-yes Wrote:This notion of good will for the sake of good will would put the football members in the same boat they were in before the Big East was raided. If those 8 programs want to maximize revenue and remain as relevant as the other 5 BCS leagues they must form a cohesive group of like minded institutions. A hodge podge of programs with competing interests is not ideal.

And the comparison of SU football to Saint Johns basketball is absurd to be frank. Looking at the landscape of college basketball over the last 20 years proves one thing. If you aren't playing football your chances of reaching the final four are nill with rare exception. Football just injects too much money into the pot of the basketball programs to allow basketball only revenue streams to be regularly competitive.

I do not believe that the Big East's hybrid nature was the primary reason for Miami and the others leaving the conference. If that was the case Miami could have attempted to initiate a split. I would think other football schools would have gone along with them. We would then be discussing Louisville joining this new "EAC" conference. For whatever reason they found the ACC was a better conference choice for them.

The St. Johns basketball team had some pretty good teams in the 90's and early 00's but has struggled of late. The Syracuse football team also had good teams in the 90's, early 00's but has struggled the last few years. The comparison is far from absurd. I do not agree that only programs with successful football programs can succeed at basketball. If that was the case there would be no teams like Gonzaga, Villanova or George Washington. Other teams such as Duke and Indiana do well even with poor football programs. A lot has to do with how dedicated you are to succeed.

There is no doubt that I view how you win to be more important then just winning. I am certain that I would lose interest in a conference that reverted to back stabbing in order to succeed. What the Big East has done so far appears to be working. The BCS bid is in good shape. The basketball conference is at or near the top. Many successes in all sports. I don't think any changes are urgent.

Actually, I believe the hybrid played a large part in Miami's leaving. As for the Fb schools wanting to split, they did vote to exacting that thing at a meeting, and then later deferred it. The split will occur.

It is possible for schools without 1a FB to succeed at BB. However, the rankings in the BE at this moment speak for themselves.
West Virginia 4-0 12-3
Pittsburgh 2-0 13-0
Syracuse 2-0 14-2
Connecticut 2-1 14-1
Villanova 2-1 11-2
Cincinnati 2-1 13-3
Louisville 1-1 13-2
Rutgers 1-1 11-4
Georgetown 2-2 10-4
Marquette 2-2 12-5
Seton Hall 1-2 9-5
DePaul 1-2 8-6
St. Johns (N.Y.) 1-2 8-6
Notre Dame 1-3 10-5
Providence 0-3 7-7
South Florida 0-3 6-10

Seven of the top 8 teams are FB schools. Six of the seven ranked teams are FB schools. We would be a lot better off with another school who played FB (such as Memphis) who was also good at BB.

The BCS bid is an ongoing process for all conferences, and we would be lax to rest on our laurels. There is also the matter of FB rankings, which are based upon voting by coaches. Conferences with more FB schools get more votes.

I mean no disrespect to my BB brethen, and I'm not into backstabbing. I will say it right up front: we need this split. As it is, we don't even to get to play an old rival in BB, who is in the same conference.

Jim

Making the BE into cusa east is far from ideal.Losing revenue,and markets does build a league.

Jackson1011 Wrote:-- Articles I read at the time basically said Miami was upset at the amound of influence the non football playing members had in the league...again...If the BE football schools were able to convince FSU to join them....almost all of the bball onlys would have voted "no" on the issue...How would it help them to have FSU bball in the league?

I think that this was Miami's problem. They wanted too much influence in the Big East (and now probably the ACC). I never felt that they were a great fit in the Big East. If they had been interested in remaining in the football conference I would bet that Pitt, BC and Syracuse would have gone along with a split if threatened with being left behind. There were additional reasons for them wanting to join the ACC.

Quote:-- No...you don't need a succesfull football program...but you do need a football program...Duke and Indiana get BCS checks too...when was the last team to win the national title that didn't have a football team?

Very few schools make final four appearances. I suppose I view BB programs as being successful by having winning seasons, making the NCAA's every few years and being competitive almost every year. Very much like WVU's record over the last 25 years.

Please tell me how does a league that consist of the following become C-USA East:

West Virginia-Never been in C-USA
Pittsburgh-Never been in C-USA
UConn-Never been in C-USA
Syracuse-Never been in C-USA
Rutgers-Never been in C-USA
South Florida-Current Big East team/Only in C-USA as a full member for 2 years
Cincinnati-Current Big East team/Former C-USA team
Louisville-Current Big East team/Former C-USA team
Memphis-Current C-USA team that can bring in a Bowl Game
Notre Dame-Never in C-USA(in all sports except football)

From what I see you have the current Big East Football membership-(and the power in basketball in the league not withstanding Villanova) and you add a team that is currently in the Top 5 in basketball.

If the league was set up like this you would have 4 teams in the Top 10 in basketball and a total of 5 in the Top 25. But somehow this league would lose money.

BTW the bowls would still be there and you could very well end up with 5 Bowls instead of the current 4 with the Toronto Bowl pending.

As far as TV markets are concerned:
Notre Dame is a National Team with a huge following in NYC and Chicago
Louisville Top 50 Market
Tampa/Saint Pete Top 25 Market
Cincinnati Top 30 Market
Pittsburgh Top 30 Market
Memphis Top 35 Market
Syracuse, Rutgers and UConn with huge inroads in NYC.

But TS2 want to keep the current step up to protect his favorite school whomever that might because nobody on this board doesn't know. My guess is either Villanova or Georgetown. ND fans could careless.

Quote:If they had been interested in remaining in the football conference I would bet that Pitt, BC and Syracuse would have gone along with a split if threatened with being left behind.

-- They didn't go along with the split when Penn St wanted them to leave the BE....why would this be any different

Jackson

JIM15068 Wrote:I mean no disrespect to my BB brethen, and I'm not into backstabbing. I will say it right up front: we need this split. As it is, we don't even to get to play an old rival in BB, who is in the same conference.

Sadly, 80% of this board is into backstabbing conference members that are in good standing. Walking away from the Big East to be Super C-USA is not in anyone's interests.