Go read all my posts on finances,tv and bowls.Rather than helping it severely hurts..

tigersharktwo Wrote:Go read all my posts on finances,tv and bowls.Rather than helping it severely hurts basketball schools..

fixed.

I don't seen how not having Georgetown, Villanova, St Johns, Providence, ect is gonna hurt the football school's bowls. Heck it'll actually help it since we could bring in Memphis and bring in the Liberty bowl whose payout would probably be 2 mil plus. Also pretty much 90% of pro-spilt people are predicting ND is coming with the football schools. So don't used them as an excuse as why is bad to split. (Well, considering it's your only decent arguement that ND is beneficial to the BE, I guess you need something)

While TV payout will be a little bit less, it not gonna be that much less. Without splitting you're dividing the TV contract by 16 with splitting you're dividing it by like 10 (9 + ND). If you don't think Espn, ABC, CBS is gonna pay the Big East 10/16 of what they pay them now then you are freakin clueless especially considering the football schools are playing 70 percent of the time on TV. Seing how ESPN and CBS likes to schedule the Big East, you really believe they don't want Uconn, Cuse, Pitt, WVa, Memphis, Cinci, ND and Louisville to play each other twice. While market does matter, people here seem to over exxagerate its worth. Seriously, how many major markets does ACC, SEC, and Big XII have. At the end if you're good, Big city folks will watch. Like I've said many time already in NYC, St John is probably not even top 5 in people's favorites.

As for general finances, I've already stated why bowls will improve and each party will get more from the TV contract since we cut of a bunch of leaches. As in NCAA tounament earnings, in the last 5 years the Big East football schools earn most of the revenue and thats not even including Louisville and Cinci cause the CUSA kept theres.

Not including ND for either side

2005
West Virginia-4
Uconn-2
Syracuse-1
Pitt-1
Villanova-3

2004
Uconn-5(max)
Pitt-3
Syracuse-3
Seton Hall-1
Providence-1

2003
Cuse-5(max)
Uconn-3
Pitt-3

2002
Uconn-4
Pitt-3
St John's-1

2001
Cuse-2
Georgetown-3
Providence-1

39 football
10 basketball

football=39/49=79.6%
basketball=10/49=20.4%

Since we're only using old BE schools minus ND and the leavers in the figures, it mean there's 5 football and 5 basketball, so the profit would be split 50/50. Just from this the football schools will have a 29.6/50= 59.2 percent increase in tournament profit.

Now imagine adding Louisville, ND, Cinci and maybe Memphis to the group. The increase in tournament revenue will be huge since now your instead of dividing by 16 its only by 10.

Say we add Memphis which comes with the Liberty bowl of 2 mil+ payout. Then also include the tournment earnings and the natural lust TV has for Calipari (I hate the guy but TV execs like him so that money there) Memphis is on major national TV a lot considering its in the freakin CUSA. TV execs like them a lot. Then the fact that the city of memphis show amazing support for UM. Plus the fact that there's a balance schedule and more stability for the conference. I really don't see how the overall benefit of adding MEmphis can't overcome spliting the revenues one more way.

Jackson1011 Wrote:-- Just throwing this out...TS2....DC is not a BE market...its not in football and its not in basketball...Maryland bball eclipses G-town in fan #s and media coverage...saying DC is a BE city is like saying Pittsburgh is an A-10 city because they have Duqusene

Jackson

The local Washington stations and media give very little coverage to Georgetown and the BE. While Georgetown BB is somewhat down they certainly are worthy of coverage. It is all about the ACC.

The problem with saying a 2 rating is as good as a 12 rating in a smaller market is that the games actually have to be on TV. The ability to see BE game of the week is spotty at best. Pretty rare to see a local station show special coverage of a Georgetown game.

The addition of the liberty bowl is a replacement bowl for the BE.Getting more than 5 bowls isa bit over 60% of the league will not happen.Thus the contribution of the liberty bowl is about 500k.The potential addition of a memphis costs the BE football schools big time money each at least 500k each between BCS revenue and tv money and is replaced at most by 500k total from a liberty bowl swap.BB wise the loss of philly and dc will cost tv money (much more than the 44 largest market can replace).This do not count the potential to loss 6 million per year from ND in football and loss of Army and Navy tv money

1. Where is ND going to go. They are not going to go to the Big 10 and split their TV money and they are not going to go with the BBall Onlies in the Big East.

2. Army/Navy, since when have we gotten anything from them. They are independants or they were in C-USA. They have NOTHING to do with the Big East and they have not shown any desire to have any partnership with the Big East.

The situation is very simple, go for ND, Penn State or Maryland for all sports membership after the split. When they say no and they will then add either UCF or Memphis and invite ND to be a member in All Sports except Football. You would have a 10 team Basketball league and a 9 team Football league and with ND you keep your bowl ties and if you add Memphis you probably add another bowl in the Liberty.

That move Maize, would cost you a huge chunk of the Big East basketball contract and would reduce the football revnue by millions by spliting it up two more ways. If you are prepared to give up all of that money to have an 'all sports league' then go for it,

TopCoog Wrote:That move Maize, would cost you a huge chunk of the Big East basketball contract and would reduce the football revnue by millions by spliting it up two more ways. If you are prepared to give up all of that money to have an 'all sports league' then go for it,

The Basketball portion would go down BUT the payout per school should stay around the same. Outside of Villanova the marquee basketball programs are the football playing schools and Notre Dame.

As for Football, we would only split it with one more school and say you add Memphis you also gain the Liberty Bowl. Notre Dame would not share in the TV/BCS money in football since they already have their own separate deal with NBC and the BCS.

TopCoog Wrote:That move Maize, would cost you a huge chunk of the Big East basketball contract and would reduce the football revnue by millions by spliting it up two more ways. If you are prepared to give up all of that money to have an 'all sports league' then go for it,

Top Coog a TV network would pay a pretty penny in order to gain the rights to a basketball league that consist of the following schools.

Notre Dame, UConn, Syracuse, Pitt, West Virginia, Louisville, Memphis and Cincinnati.

That league alone would still be within the top 2 basketball leagues in the nation.

Maize, they would not pay nearly as much as they are paying now, you would lose too many sets. What the netwoek wants to know is what is it costing them to reach a thousand people, we call that cost per thousand.
You would have to look at the ratings and size of every Big East market to compute the figure but I can't imagine how you could come out. I'm sure that is why they did not split two years ago.

Now, you may be aware that college sports is in the middle of a communications revolution that is going to change everything. Every year since 2000 the number of football and basketball games on national TV has increased at around 10% a year. We are fixing to enter the era of high definition radio that will tripple the number of stations on the air.
Here is the problem, as you continue to DILUTE the market across the country each game becomes less valuable. Nobody really knows how all of this is going to play out in the next few yearsbut some things are clear.
The major powers (Ohio St. Notre Dame etc) are no longer going to have a monolopy on media coverage. If the strangle hold on media coverage they have enjoyed is one of the main reasons they have held their dominant position what will the result of the change be?

This could well end up being death by 1000 cuts. Consider the New Mexico State fan who in the past watched the Texas-OU game on TV because his team was not on TV. Now that his team is on TV , or soon will be, many of those people will watch their own games, just as you or I would. What happened to the major network news programs will happen in college sports as well. We are approcching a time when a La tech fan living in Seattle will be able to watch every one of his games on TV.

Some people cannot do simple arithmetic.The 2 million myth about the liberty bowl is now added to the myth of the need for a 9th team when the teams are memphis and cfla.If(?) the liberty moves to the BE a BIG IF,it replaces an existing bowl so just the gain is counted ,500k.THE LOSS if there is another memberbeing added is 500k PER SCHOOL(BCS and tv money)The third myth is that bb money is divided in half.The half is not the current total BE BB TV package but less than that.Forget that the philly market does not mention Villanova.The 4th myth is ND will not react to any move without their approval.

Maize Wrote:1.
The situation is very simple, go for ND, Penn State or Maryland for all sports membership after the split. When they say no and they will then add either UCF or Memphis and invite ND to be a member in All Sports except Football. You would have a 10 team Basketball league and a 9 team Football league and with ND you keep your bowl ties and if you add Memphis you probably add another bowl in the Liberty.

I like the ideal that we first go after ND, PSU and Maryland.
But if we go after them just after the split a guarantee that they turn us down.
Why any of those schools would voluntary leaving establish and stable conference for one just starts up? Remember we are no longer

TopCoog Wrote:Maize, they would not pay nearly as much as they are paying now, you would lose too many sets. What the netwoek wants to know is what is it costing them to reach a thousand people, we call that cost per thousand.
You would have to look at the ratings and size of every Big East market to compute the figure but I can't imagine how you could come out. I'm sure that is why they did not split two years ago.

The point that seems to counter your argument is that the BE is receiving a comparably low value for their basketball now with all those major markets already included. The ACC already has a much larger basketball contract, and I believe the Big Ten's is larger as well.

Much like you've hit on earlier even a little bit of the DC market is worth more than all of the, say, Fargo, ND market. The question for the BE becomes "What's the opportunitiy cost for this conference considering the relative market value of Georgetown, SHU, etc.?" True, even with the ACC presence and competition losing access to the DC market might hurt. But I'd venture to say the market value for SHU, Providence and others might not be worth the costs. The concept most expansionists are suggesting is that the basketball within the all-sports membership is good enough to warrant more national games and higher profile match-ups that the net difference in terms of money AND exposure in major markets is more than what those programs are currently receiving as half of this larger BE. This may not turn out to be true, but on the surface the appeal of Louisville-Syracuse, Cincy-UConn is not that much different for people in Philly or DC whether those teams are aligned with Georgetown or not. Further...

Quote:Now, you may be aware that college sports is in the middle of a communications revolution that is going to change everything. Every year since 2000 the number of football and basketball games on national TV has increased at around 10% a year. We are fixing to enter the era of high definition radio that will tripple the number of stations on the air.
Here is the problem, as you continue to DILUTE the market across the country each game becomes less valuable. Nobody really knows how all of this is going to play out in the next few yearsbut some things are clear.
The major powers (Ohio St. Notre Dame etc) are no longer going to have a monolopy on media coverage. If the strangle hold on media coverage they have enjoyed is one of the main reasons they have held their dominant position what will the result of the change be?

This could well end up being death by 1000 cuts. Consider the New Mexico State fan who in the past watched the Texas-OU game on TV because his team was not on TV. Now that his team is on TV , or soon will be, many of those people will watch their own games, just as you or I would. What happened to the major network news programs will happen in college sports as well. We are approcching a time when a La tech fan living in Seattle will be able to watch every one of his games on TV.

Such changes might reduce the need for Louisville et al to be directly aligned with Georgetown and such in order to gain access to the DC market. Cardinal fans might have their media for directly watching the games, ,and there's no loss from fans who'd only be watching Georgetown games anyway. What will be critical is the larger appeal of each program. After all, just because New Mexico St might have equal exposure via secondary media outlets doesn't mean they'll have the viewership and support equivalent of Texas, ND and others. I'm guessing that conference contracts will play more critical roles in that, even if their relative or real worth goes down many programs will find incrased value via their partnerships as opposed to flying solo. In other words, the returns for a BE network would probably be greater for 75% of the teams than if they all did their own. Cuse and the other powers would sacrifice some potential $ in return for the guaranteed funds available through their conference deal. No matter how media outlets evolve, the notion of people paying/sponsoring their favorite programs will hold true to form. If the economics of soccer in Europe can show us anything, it's that the leagues with bundled contracts (England, Germany) are healthier than those with everyone acting independently (Italy).

That being the case, Yes the BE members will want a strong conference but the relative value of each member will be more meticulously reviewed than simply the size of the metro market they reside in.

Just my $.02

Gunner, Some good points and not having the data i have no idea what the figures say. There could well be changes coming up, there always are. I cannot see the concept of a complete split as viable. You could well see some sort of tweak down the road but the football schools are not going to dump Georgetwon , Villanove, DePaul and Marquette. The others might be more problematical. Those markets are simply too big to turn lose.

As for the technology. I do see New mexico State having the same size TV audience as Ohio State or Texas. That said, I do see the viewship for teams like Ohio State drastically reduced in the future. This is going to be a whole new paradime, unlike anything we have seen before. It has to hurt the major players to some degree.

TS2, I gather you're saying is if Army (or Navy) gets invited, they will not accept any portion of the BCS money and they will share their portion of any TV appearence (bowl, ESPN, units, etc). Right?

To me, Army and Navy may not have any interest in BE as you think. Army's FB only BE school on it's sched is UConn. Navy...it's Rutger. If either were interested, seems to me they would make a effort to get more BE teams on it's sched...past and present. I see it that Army and Navy likes playing each other (and Air Force) and high end private schools.....Rice, Tulane, BC, etc. It make sense.

Questions to you:

If B10 can't get ND, why don't they go after Army or Navy? Each of the B10 teams would have a larger payday (champ game).
You have any link showing that Army or Navy's AD is shopping for a conf?
Last, what gives you the idea that they will just give the money BCS back to the league? If you're in the conf, it's your money.

TopCoog Wrote:I cannot see the concept of a complete split as viable. You could well see some sort of tweak down the road but the football schools are not going to dump Georgetwon , Villanove, DePaul and Marquette. The others might be more problematical. Those markets are simply too big to turn lose.

Sounds like we need to find out how well broadcasts of the BE games do in markets where the home team isn't involved. Typically people refer to the number of national telecasts as one barometer of value. I don't think anyone is denying that Nova, SJU and Georgetown are nice commodities, the question is what are they doing to make fans of the conference as a whole within their respective markets? Part of the appeal of a split stems from the notion that football is as strong a factor, if not stronger, in building that sense of conference affinity. By not participating in that major sport within the conference many feel that the conference is not getting attention from the residual fans. Thus, if the saying's true that many places only have fans when their big sport is being played, then the BE risks having fan appeal only 4 months out of the year in some markets. Minor sports are essentially discounted as they're barely broadcast off campus. Perhaps we can find a way to (roughly) quantify this?

Which brings to mind the other factor: Is BE football being broadcast within these markets, even if the BE member isn't a football member? BE football may reach a time when it is dependent on reaching into more markets, and while the members would prefer not to sacrifice Georgetown or the DC market, the need to increase exposure of the football programs may demand increasing membership. Which in turn might demand a split. (I'm just saying may, now, everybody.)

Quote:As for the technology. I do see New mexico State having the same size TV audience as Ohio State or Texas. That said, I do see the viewship for teams like Ohio State drastically reduced in the future. This is going to be a whole new paradime, unlike anything we have seen before. It has to hurt the major players to some degree.

Did you mean "do NOT" see?
I agree there will be reductions, but all that will ultimately matter is whether or not those programs are at or near the top of the food chain. Recruits will prefer to play in the places with the widest exposure, best facilities, best crowds, etc. Much like we see now, a caste system will remain. Different, to be sure, but top level football will most likely never have the same volume of wonderously prosperous programs or conferences as we see in D1 basketball. Gone are the days when only ND and USC would be on TV, but even since the court ruling that enabled modern contracting the number of competitive programs has decreased or stayed roughly the same.

uofmlimbo Wrote:If B10 can't get ND, why don't they go after Army or Navy? Each of the B10 teams would have a larger payday (champ game).

B10 has no interest in a service academy, especially seeing as the academies would not be able to serve as full partners in the CIC. As it is, many B10 officials aren't even interested in a championship game. They know they may be leaving some money on the table, but they cringe at the thought of OSU losing such a game via an upset, or having the OSU-Michigan game overshadowed by the championship game. They asl oknow the present system best equips them for landing two BCS spots.

Quote:You have any link showing that Army or Navy's AD is shopping for a conf?

Unlikely. All their other sports are in the adequate shelter of the Patriot Conference and the only reason football is remaining 1-A is pride. The reason their talked about in association with the BE is regional interests and perhaps to-date a sense of comparable levels of competition. If/when the BE ever has greater depth like other BCS conferences, this concept will likely whither away.

Army and Navy want northestern schools(for their fan base) on their schedules.Navy already has 3BE games scheduled(Rutgers,UCONN,Pitt) and Army has 1 (RUtgers and a lot of openingson its schedules.Both Army and Navy play ND with Army's home game scheduled for the meadowlands and navy's in Baltimore.Both Army and Navy have tv packages,thus BE games at their stadiums will be televised.It is also the impression that BE games with Army and Navy will also be televised(thus more tv revenue for BE schoolsie 8 games per year).It also appears likely that Army and Navy will likely become part of non- bCS bowl packages just as the case as ND.There will be no sharing of BE BCS money or the current levels of the BE tv with Army or Navy as is the case with ND.

I have to wonder why Army and NAvy is being mentioned?

The BE conference is already playing them a lot. Uconn and Rutgers plays at least one every year. That is not gonna change whether a split happens or not. That is also not gonna change whether the football schools add a 9th team.

Please stop bringing them up as excuse of why not to split. It really has little revelance to the issue.

There's really only one issue for anti-spliters here. How much would the TV contract be less without the basketball schools. The TV contract without the b-ball schools would have to be 57% of the contarct with the b-ball schools for the football teams to break even. Then considering the advantages of splitting, like more football independance and higher evenue from NCAA credits, the TV contract would probably have to be over 50 percent less for the football schools to not make more money from splitting. Anyone with a brain can see a conference with Uconn, Cuse, Pitt, WVA, louvisville, Cinci playing each other twice is not gonna get a TV contract over 50 percent less.

ccbfan Wrote:I have to wonder why Army and NAvy is being mentioned?

The BE conference is already playing them a lot. Uconn and Rutgers plays at least one every year. That is not gonna change whether a split happens or not. That is also not gonna change whether the football schools add a 9th team.

Please stop bringing them up as excuse of why not to split. It really has little revelance to the issue.

There's really only one issue for anti-spliters here. How much would the TV contract be less without the basketball schools. The TV contract without the b-ball schools would have to be 57% of the contarct with the b-ball schools for the football teams to break even. Then considering the advantages of splitting, like more football independance and higher evenue from NCAA credits, the TV contract would probably have to be over 50 percent less for the football schools to not make more money from splitting. Anyone with a brain can see a conference with Uconn, Cuse, Pitt, WVA, louvisville, Cinci playing each other twice is not gonna get a TV contract over 50 percent less.

Exactly.

Throw in Notre Dame and Memphis and you have an 18 game round robin schedule that would blow anything the current alignment could produce away.

TopCoog Wrote:jackson, I have worked in advertising all my life. I'm not trying to be ugly but you don't have a clue. Look, markets are not 'owned' by individual teams as you imply. If the Big east is working a TV contract the network could not give a rats a$$ what maryland draws in the market, all they care about is what Georgetown pulls. In other words, how many sets is georgetown going to deliver.

As for Houston, when the big 12 looked at the market texas and texas A&M had good shares. Why in the hell do you think the MWC wanted TCU? Think about it. You have the greatest set up anyone could possibly have and you are two dumb to see it.

Ah...just a grammatical thing.....you said that Jackson was "two dumb to see it" but you should have used "too" instead of "two"..........just wanted to point that out....