(12-27-2012 12:52 PM)tigernole79 Wrote:  I think time for rational debate on this forum has just about passed. Most posters are fed up with stupid post from trolls trying to point out everything Coach Pastner does wrong and ignoring anything positive. It is amazing how people love to point out the lack of tourney wins, lack of wins against top 20 opponents, yet gloss over his winning percentage the fact that he took the team to two straight tourneys in his first three years and has one of the best records at Memphis.

I thnik his, and the teams, biggest problem is a lack of depth. This has hurt by players not being pushed in practice and players being "given" playing time that might not have earned it any other way. It is very easy to keep a "diva" attitude, when you know there really isnt depth that will replace you if you don't perform. I think you will see this team get better and better as GJ, Shaq and even DJ push players for playing time.

Even moreso next year when that class joins these guys.

Competition is gonna be fierce for PT.

Normally, a young head coach makes his major mistakes and learns his craft at an obscure school before entering the furnace of scrutiny that is Memphis basketball, but Pastner has not had that luxury. Nevertheless,
Pastner has done a remarkable job on and off the court by any reasonable standard given the mess he inherited and limitations of the position (we are not KU or UNC).

We all want Final Fours, 30 win seasons, and a National Championship. Pastner is the best available coaching alternative to achieve our goals within the near future. Fulfilling the goals will be easier with fan support through donations, attendance, and positive reinforcement.

(12-27-2012 08:19 AM)gthom Wrote:  Rip Scherer was a hell of a great guy, too.

And since he left here, he has had a successful career as a college and NFL assistant coach making lots of money along the way.

Josh could make a crapload of money for the next 30 years being lead recruiter for big coaches/programs, and in my opinion, that's exactly what he should do. I know he's ambitious and wants to be the head man, but he's just not cut out for it.

How many years do we have to watch the same thing happen over and over before the reality is accepted? Come on, Tiger Fans, you are short-changing yourselves.

You mean, the whole two and a 1/3 seasons we've watched it? People act like Pastner has been a crap coach with a losing record and has been a crappy head coach for 5-10 years. He is going into his forth year as a head coach. Four years in and he hasn't gotten a top 25 win or won in the NCAA tournament.


I really think there are a group of Memphis fans would prefer the days of paying players and letting them beat up their girlfriends, get pepper sprayed by the cops, get busted with weed and prostitutes...that's what college athletics is all about, right?

Clearly though, since Josh isn't Izzo, Boeheim, and Wooden rolled into one after three seasons, we should not only fire him, but he should be drawn and quartered...

(12-27-2012 01:33 PM)transitt Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 08:19 AM)gthom Wrote:  Rip Scherer was a hell of a great guy, too.

And since he left here, he has had a successful career as a college and NFL assistant coach making lots of money along the way.

Josh could make a crapload of money for the next 30 years being lead recruiter for big coaches/programs, and in my opinion, that's exactly what he should do. I know he's ambitious and wants to be the head man, but he's just not cut out for it.

How many years do we have to watch the same thing happen over and over before the reality is accepted? Come on, Tiger Fans, you are short-changing yourselves.

You mean, the whole two and a 1/3 seasons we've watched it? People act like Pastner has been a crap coach with a losing record and has been a crappy head coach for 5-10 years. He is going into his forth year as a head coach. Four years in and he hasn't gotten a top 25 win or won in the NCAA tournament.


I really think there are a group of Memphis fans would prefer the days of paying players and letting them beat up their girlfriends, get pepper sprayed by the cops, get busted with weed and prostitutes...that's what college athletics is all about, right?

Clearly though, since Josh isn't Izzo, Boeheim, and Wooden rolled into one after three seasons, we should not only fire him, but he should be drawn and quartered...

Why was Finch (a Memphis Legend) fired?

^^^^^

But you were the same people in lock step with Cal defending those decisons. The whole lot of you (except TG4 and FUT).

You all explained away Hunt's stuff, rationalized Bank's behavior, marginalized Dozier's and Dorsey's actions. It was always "In Cal We Trust."

Now you all want to act all holier than though by saying how you are "glad" this program doesn't have that element on the team.

You guys were cool when Pastner tried to get "alleged" girl beater Mbakwe on the team. Gerron wasn't a saint in the past. Dez Wells had issues (unproven...just like Dozier, right

(12-27-2012 01:38 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  ^^^^^

But you were the same people in lock step with Cal defending those decisons. The whole lot of you (except TG4 and FUT).

You all explained away Hunt's stuff, rationalized Bank's behavior, marginalized Dozier's and Dorsey's actions. It was always "In Cal We Trust."

Now you all want to act all holier than though by saying how you are "glad" this program doesn't have that element on the team.

You guys were cool when Pastner tried to get "alleged" girl beater Mbakwe on the team. Gerron wasn't a saint in the past. Dez Wells had issues (unproven...just like Dozier, right

Laugh, and somehow I was called a "hippocrit" earlier.

(12-27-2012 01:38 PM)salukiblue Wrote:  ^^^^^

But you were the same people in lock step with Cal defending those decisons. The whole lot of you (except TG4 and FUT).

You all explained away Hunt's stuff, rationalized Bank's behavior, marginalized Dozier's and Dorsey's actions. It was always "In Cal We Trust."

Now you all want to act all holier than though by saying how you are "glad" this program doesn't have that element on the team.

You guys were cool when Pastner tried to get "alleged" girl beater Mbakwe on the team. Gerron wasn't a saint in the past. Dez Wells had issues (unproven...just like Dozier, right

Not all of us.

What is Josh's winning %...and what would a comparable FB program be to our BB program (stature, national recognition, etc.)

I want to run some numbers...

(12-27-2012 01:54 PM)madtiger Wrote:  What is Josh's winning %...and what would a comparable FB program be to our BB program (stature, national recognition, etc.)

I want to run some numbers...

That is actually a good but difficult question.
If you look at overall history (good but not great)
with a few deep ncaa runs (BCS bowls)
struggling to make an impact now, it is difficult to compare.

Take out the 98 championship and UTk might be close.

Ole Miss might very well be a good comparison. They have had their moments without quite getting it done.

(12-27-2012 01:54 PM)madtiger Wrote:  What is Josh's winning %...and what would a comparable FB program be to our BB program (stature, national recognition, etc.)

I want to run some numbers...

Comparable program in football? Basically a historically "good" team. With a more peaks than valleys. Good recruiting base. Bad conference.

Hard to fit all those together in football.

Maybe BYU, Arkansas, West Virginia. Teams generally on the radar. Capable of top 10 seasons, also capable of underperforming.

I hate to bring this back up but Pastners salary is a big reason why he takes so much heat. I understand he is learning on the job but u don't accept 1.8 million a year to do it.

If he is learning on the job increase the pay gradually. Memphis could have paid off the indoor turf field by now if Pastners was still around a million but he's not and he hasn't beaten a decent team other than xavier

(12-27-2012 02:13 PM)cdrtiger Wrote:  I hate to bring this back up but Pastners salary is a big reason why he takes so much heat. I understand he is learning on the job but u don't accept 1.8 million a year to do it.

If he is learning on the job increase the pay gradually. Memphis could have paid off the indoor turf field by now if Pastners was still around a million but he's not and he hasn't beaten a decent team other than xavier

They offered, he accepted....end of story. Would you turn it down?

(12-27-2012 02:13 PM)cdrtiger Wrote:  I hate to bring this back up but Pastners salary is a big reason why he takes so much heat. I understand he is learning on the job but u don't accept 1.8 million a year to do it.

If he is learning on the job increase the pay gradually. Memphis could have paid off the indoor turf field by now if Pastners was still around a million but he's not and he hasn't beaten a decent team other than xavier

You're right...he should have said, no thanks.

(12-27-2012 02:13 PM)cdrtiger Wrote:  I hate to bring this back up but Pastners salary is a big reason why he takes so much heat. I understand he is learning on the job but u don't accept 1.8 million a year to do it.

If he is learning on the job increase the pay gradually. Memphis could have paid off the indoor turf field by now if Pastners was still around a million but he's not and he hasn't beaten a decent team other than xavier

I really dont care about his wages. Like I have said before, a coach at Memphis is supposed to get paid. If you cant live up to the expectations that come with coaching at Memphis, I dont want them to give money back. I want a coach that earns the Memphis job, money and everything else that comes along with it.

The moment we start paying coaches for their value and not for the program's value we are heading in the wrong direction.

(12-27-2012 02:15 PM)missjtiger Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 02:13 PM)cdrtiger Wrote:  I hate to bring this back up but Pastners salary is a big reason why he takes so much heat. I understand he is learning on the job but u don't accept 1.8 million a year to do it.

If he is learning on the job increase the pay gradually. Memphis could have paid off the indoor turf field by now if Pastners was still around a million but he's not and he hasn't beaten a decent team other than xavier

You're right...he should have said, no thanks.

You accept top 15 money you should be expected to acheive top 15 results...

Tis what it tis

oh look...

Another disussion about CJP's salary and record against top 25 teams.

neato

We should have had this discussed yesterday. No....wait......

Ok, the day before. No...wait......

Ok, the day before that. I mean...wait.......

(12-27-2012 02:20 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 02:15 PM)missjtiger Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 02:13 PM)cdrtiger Wrote:  I hate to bring this back up but Pastners salary is a big reason why he takes so much heat. I understand he is learning on the job but u don't accept 1.8 million a year to do it.

If he is learning on the job increase the pay gradually. Memphis could have paid off the indoor turf field by now if Pastners was still around a million but he's not and he hasn't beaten a decent team other than xavier

You're right...he should have said, no thanks.

You accept top 15 money you should be expected to acheive top 15 results...

Tis what it tis

You're right...the season is over and we're not top 15.

(12-27-2012 08:57 AM)gthom Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 08:23 AM)herkermer Wrote:  Lincoln freed the slaves... You dont HAVE to watch.

When you care about your program you do.

You may be under the impression that people of my opinion are the minority. We aren't. One way or another, change is coming. It will come from Josh figuring this thing out and delivering more results, or it will come from Josh not being our coach anymore. But I can assure you that the status quo isn't going to continue long term.

If you like Josh, spend your time at church praying that he can find the way. He has every opportunity to succeed.

I think change is coming too, from either the players we have getting more mentally tough and bringing focus and effort all the time, or from new ones replacing them,

That is not a slam on players or an unqualified endorsement of every decision Pastner has made.

This is just the reality of where the biggest room for improvement lies - with consistency of focus and effort. When they are on, they are equal to the best, and the coaching looks good.

The consensus among people who know basketball agree that there is no question of his basketball knowledge and coaching. Furthermore, the questions about things like lineups are red herrings that are actually meaningless and are just concocted by simple minds to find blame.

The only question is whether he is able to get consistent top level performance out of players.

However, careful observers of coaching and of human behavior understand that when the question is effort, the primary issue is with those giving the effort, and in the long run, the effect of another person like a coach is at best either spotty or very incremental. Real change happens when a person decides for themselves. Anyone who argues against that just wants to argue or does not know what they're talking about.

Pastner isn't perfect. He makes mistakes. And ultimately he will be judged on the performance of players whether that is fair or not. But I'm just saying that the lack of consistency has obviously been the biggest issue and while Pastner is ultimately accountable, in practice the way it will be fixed is with players that are committed to being locked in all the time.

(12-27-2012 03:27 PM)lenetzach Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 08:57 AM)gthom Wrote:  

(12-27-2012 08:23 AM)herkermer Wrote:  Lincoln freed the slaves... You dont HAVE to watch.

When you care about your program you do.

You may be under the impression that people of my opinion are the minority. We aren't. One way or another, change is coming. It will come from Josh figuring this thing out and delivering more results, or it will come from Josh not being our coach anymore. But I can assure you that the status quo isn't going to continue long term.

If you like Josh, spend your time at church praying that he can find the way. He has every opportunity to succeed.

I think change is coming too, from either the players we have getting more mentally tough and bringing focus and effort all the time, or from new ones replacing them,

That is not a slam on players or an unqualified endorsement of every decision Pastner has made.

This is just the reality of where the biggest room for improvement lies - with consistency of focus and effort. When they are on, they are equal to the best, and the coaching looks good.

The consensus among people who know basketball agree that there is no question of his basketball knowledge and coaching. Furthermore, the questions about things like lineups are red herrings that are actually meaningless and are just concocted by simple minds to find blame.

The only question is whether he is able to get consistent top level performance out of players.

However, careful observers of coaching and of human behavior understand that when the question is effort, the primary issue is with those giving the effort, and in the long run, the effect of another person like a coach is at best either spotty or very incremental. Real change happens when a person decides for themselves. Anyone who argues against that just wants to argue or does not know what they're talking about.

Pastner isn't perfect. He makes mistakes. And ultimately he will be judged on the performance of players whether that is fair or not. But I'm just saying that the lack of consistency has obviously been the biggest issue and while Pastner is ultimately accountable, in practice the way it will be fixed is with players that are committed to being locked in all the time.

I agree with some of this. I also feel that in the bigger picture, most of the losses to quality teams, the players have been fine if not good.
St Louis certainly took us out of our game and the players looked bad, but was that because of the players or because of coaching strategy? There are just way too many questions unanswered and way too many red flags at this stage IMO. You mention the starting line up and rotations as being red herrings but when you keep piling up the red herrings something is not right. Every commentator, coach, media outlet, etc, when asked says he has to get his starting lineup and rotation set. Thing is they have been saying it for several seasons, even Josh constantly says he has to narrow it down. Yet here we are and here he is still cant make a decision. That sums up his coaching, he is steadily second guessing himself. A leader has to be decisive, right or wrong.

the changes in lineups and rotations are precisely an effort to do what he can to get maximum effort and focus

coaches with a proven record of success do the same things when they are not getting what they want in the way of performance or accountability

therefore, acting like it is the source of problems shows a failure to see with a larger perspective of the game in other times and places, and a failure to understand the presenting issue.

the criticism is akin to telling someone with a broken leg that their cast and crutches are slowing them down. sure, a cast and crutches would slow down a person who did not have a broken leg. but when treatment is needed, you can't look at a situation the same as if everything is functioning properly.

as for the St. Louis game, Majerus' plan was an excellent one, and it gave him enough of an equalizer that with a little luck and a below average shooting performance by us, he won. he definitely gets credit for coaching. but one also needs to note that he brought the same game plan to the Michigan State game, and Izzo had no solution for it, and in fact, Izzo was interviewed at the half and said "we have to score more in transition." one would think that a championship winning coach widely lauded as one of the best in the game would have at least watched film of the previous game, or percieved in a whole half of basketball that St. Louis was sending 4 guys back in transition defense. MSU never got it going in transition - Marjerus' strategy was effective as an equalizer, so in that sense, if Pastner got outcoached, so did Izzo. it's not really a badge of dishonor against Marjerus anyway. the difference in the MSU game from ours was that SLU missed a few super deep 3s that they made against us, and Green started making jump shots and plays for them, while our players just weren't getting the ball in the hole, even when open.

and as for a leader having to be decisive, right or wrong, I take issue with that. be decisive yes, but also adaptable. I would rather have a leader who can identify when to change course rather than one who will drive off a cliff to prove he is decisive.