Zach Line or Adrian Peterson? or both?

(12-24-2012 09:19 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  Zach Line or Adrian Peterson? or both?

The league is too pass oriented, Peterson is going to get about as close as anyone will for a long time this season.

CUSA doesn't compare to the SWC though, still happy for Line and SMU.

Chris Johnson

Dickerson holds at least three major NFL records - the rookie season record, the all time season record, and the playoff game record. They have all stood for at least 27 years. From zero to ten thousand yards, he was the best back ever. And beautiful to watch.

Doug Martin

I think OJ SImpson's 2003 rushign yards in 14 games is far more impressive than Dickerson or Peterson

Which one though?

(12-26-2012 12:43 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I think OJ SImpson's 2003 rushign yards in 14 games is far more impressive than Dickerson or Peterson

OJ was phenomenal in 2003, but the extent to which he was better than Dickerson in 1984 is overrated. First, Dickerson actually broke OJ's record in game 15, not game 16, so it is wrong to say it took ED "two more games to do it" as is often said.

Second, Dickerson played a much tougher SOS in 1984 than OJ did in 1973, particularly with regard to run defenses. In 1973, OJ played only 1 game versus a team ranked in the top 10 for run defense that year, and that was #9 Kansas City. In contrast, Dickerson played 5 games against top 10 run defenses, including #1 (Chicago), #4 (Steelers), #7 San Francisco (twice), and #9 NY Giants.

OJ also played two games against the team with far and away the #1 WORST rushing defense in the league his year, the Patriots, and he racked up a whopping 479 yards against them in those games. The Pats were so bad against the run that year that even if you subtract out OJ's two monster performances and give their defense zero yards against for those two games, they would still have the 6th worst rush defense.

Finally, the Bills actually rushed for 3088 yards in 1973, more than a thousand more than OJ gained by himself. OJ accounted for about 64% of the Bill's rush yardage. In contrast, the 1984 Rams were truly a one-Dickerson show on the ground. In two fewer games, the Rams rushed for 200 less yards than the 1973 Bills, and Dickerson gained 75% of those yards.

So adjusting for those kinds of factors, it's IMO fair to say that ED legitimately broke the record. Sure, you can argue OJ was still better, but it isn't a slam-dunk situation. The fact that it has stood for 28 years also testifies to the greatness of that year.

Dickerson's dominance really began as a Senior at SMU. Over 1600 yards rushing 7.0 ypc playing on about 45% of SMU's offensive staps against 8-9 man stacked defenses. Zach Line is a nice back but he is running against 3 man stacked defenses with LBs and CBs bailing out for the Run n Shoot. I believe Dickerson was the most dominant RB in Football period from his Senior year at SMU to his first 10,000 in the NFL. As Craig James admits-The only thing that kept him from winning the Heisman was Craig James who also averaged over 1,000 for a 3 year period sharing the same RB position. They rarely, rarely were on the field at the same type. Herschell faced stack defenses too but averaged about 5.0 ypc as a Junior/Senior. Football was entirely different-today you've got to spread the field-back then if you didn't have a passing game they would pull everybody close to the line

(12-24-2012 10:32 PM)Lord2FLI Wrote:  

(12-24-2012 09:19 PM)DexterDevil Wrote:  Zach Line or Adrian Peterson? or both?

The league is too pass oriented, Peterson is going to get about as close as anyone will for a long time this season.

This is good for RB's. They may or may not break league records but the average length of a RB's career should be several seasons longer = getting paid $$$.

(12-26-2012 04:24 PM)texasflood Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 12:43 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I think OJ SImpson's 2003 rushign yards in 14 games is far more impressive than Dickerson or Peterson

OJ was phenomenal in 2003, but the extent to which he was better than Dickerson in 1984 is overrated. First, Dickerson actually broke OJ's record in game 15, not game 16, so it is wrong to say it took ED "two more games to do it" as is often said.

I never said that. But OJ Simpson averaged 143.5 yards per game that year, on 6 yards per attempt. He only had 332 carries. Dickerson had a 5.6 ypc on 131.6 ypg. Also note that Dickerson's QB three for 1,000 yards more than OJ's did, who's starting QB threw for less than 1,000 yards and only 4 TD's. The other thing to note is that Simpson gave up 200 attempts and 1,000 yards to other running backs in 14 games, compared to say 71 for 300 yards for Peterson and 110 for 600 yards for Dickerson all in 16 games. You listed that as a negative for Simpson. That is definitely a positive, as the others took a far larger percentage of their teams carries. What if Simpson had taken an equal percentage of rushes? He'd have 2600 yards. Simpson's season is simply way more impressive, but not to take anything away from the other two. Simpson's just sits head and shoulders above the rest.

Also note that OJ had a second season where he had more rushing yards after 14 games than Peterson did this year.

(12-27-2012 02:53 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 04:24 PM)texasflood Wrote:  

(12-26-2012 12:43 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I think OJ SImpson's 2003 rushign yards in 14 games is far more impressive than Dickerson or Peterson

OJ was phenomenal in 2003, but the extent to which he was better than Dickerson in 1984 is overrated. First, Dickerson actually broke OJ's record in game 15, not game 16, so it is wrong to say it took ED "two more games to do it" as is often said.

I never said that. But OJ Simpson averaged 143.5 yards per game that year, on 6 yards per attempt. He only had 332 carries. Dickerson had a 5.6 ypc on 131.6 ypg. Also note that Dickerson's QB three for 1,000 yards more than OJ's did, who's starting QB threw for less than 1,000 yards and only 4 TD's. The other thing to note is that Simpson gave up 200 attempts and 1,000 yards to other running backs in 14 games, compared to say 71 for 300 yards for Peterson and 110 for 600 yards for Dickerson all in 16 games. Simpson's season is simply way more impressive, but not to take anything away from the other two. Simpson's just sits head and shoulders above the rest.

Also note that OJ had a second season where he had more rushing yards after 14 games than Peterson did this year.

I don't put much stock in the Bills QB not throwing much because the NFL was different, more run oriented, in 1973 than 1984. Joe Ferguson, the Bills QB, was clearly a better QB than Jeff Kemp.

OJ did have a better APC, but again, look at who he ran against. Dickerson faced clearly tougher run defenses, not even close. As for overall carries, i assume the coach calls plays for the back best able to run on that play. OJ was a far less physical runner than Dickerson or AP so probably needed to rest more. Can't say he gave up carries that he wasn't the best guy to take.

If you want to think OJ was clearly better, go ahead, but to do that you have to ignore the tougher defenses Dickerson faced, i can't.

But you are oversimplifying it. First, note I mentioned the lack of passing because it changed how defenses played versus when Dickerson arrived. Anyway yes the Rams played five top ten defenses to Buffalo's two (you left out Cincinnati), but they also played 8 bottom ten rush defenses, putting the average rank of each defense to 18 for the Bills and 16 for Rams. Still a better calibur, but not near as big a difference. but the Bills performed better against those defenses than the Rams did. But here is where the bigger issues come in. The opponent's rushing ranking was more directly affected by the Bills than the Rams.

If you look at the stats for the teams each played against, and take out the games of the teams in question, you notice some very big differences. Note that in this discussion the yards per carry were identical for each season, but teams attempted For example the reams the rams played in 1974 gave up an average of 127.9 yards per game (would rank 18th in the league that year). When you take out the games played against the Rams, they gave up an average of 124.6 yards per game (17th) to the rest of the league. In the case of the Bills their opponents averaged giving up 160 yards per game (would have ranked 21st), but only 151 ypg versus the rest of the league (would have ranked 16th). In essence the rank of many of the Bills opponents, were a direct result of having to play them and OJ Simpsons, especially their division opponents who not only had to play them twice, but only had 12 other games to average out those big games as opposed to 14 for the Ram's 84 opponents. The Bills bested their opponents average by 61 yards per game, whereas the Rams did by 51 yards per game, a 20% difference.

All of this factored in, and with Dickerson needing 47 additional carries and two extra games to get 100 yards more than Simpson, and let's not forget that Dickerson had that big day in week 16 (second to last game) against the worst rush defense in the league, who was out of the playoff picture, beat up with injuries, and more or less gave up, really padded his numbers. I say that because historically the players who had 2000 yard or near seasons put up big numbers in week 15 and 16 as injury and attrition takes its toll on the defense, one of the things that makes Simpson's record all the more impressive. this is not a slight to Dickerson, just that much like Barry Sander's all purpose yards record was really never in jeopardy yesterday IMO due to the number of games played (11 vs 13), when comparing historical records you have to account for extra games (not accounting for injuries, just the length of the season).

On a side note, that is were Peterson missed the boat. He needed a big game this past week, as this is the time where playoff teams will play cautiously with injured players, and the team isn't on the hook for you setting the record against them. Next week Green Bay needs to win, so it's an all out war, and he may be on the outside looking int.

Dickerson still not good enough for College Football Hall of Fame-we all know why but actually I don't think the NCAA ever nailed SMU on recruiting allegations related to Dickerson(although Pony Excess did). His Auntie paid for the Gold Trans Am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That's why I get a kick out of SMU fans claimed that the NCAA was picking on SMU for minor infractions in the first 3 of the 5 successive violations. We know there was a payroll-we know they were buying Trans Ams and we know the "parking lot looked like a W.O. Bankston Car Dealership(local dealer who was huge SMU benefactor). What more do you really need to know after 5 probations? Perhaps that Govenor and head of Board of Trustees authorized continued payments after lying straight in the NCAA face on the record after 4th probatio? Is that enough? Yet we got a guy on our board now who just wrote a book claiming SMU got SCREWED!!!.

(12-27-2012 05:23 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  But you are oversimplifying it. First, note I mentioned the lack of passing because it changed how defenses played versus when Dickerson arrived. Anyway yes the Rams played five top ten defenses to Buffalo's two (you left out Cincinnati), but they also played 8 bottom ten rush defenses, putting the average rank of each defense to 18 for the Bills and 16 for Rams. Still a better calibur, but not near as big a difference. but the Bills performed better against those defenses than the Rams did. But here is where the bigger issues come in. The opponent's rushing ranking was more directly affected by the Bills than the Rams.

If you look at the stats for the teams each played against, and take out the games of the teams in question, you notice some very big differences. Note that in this discussion the yards per carry were identical for each season, but teams attempted For example the reams the rams played in 1974 gave up an average of 127.9 yards per game (would rank 18th in the league that year). When you take out the games played against the Rams, they gave up an average of 124.6 yards per game (17th) to the rest of the league. In the case of the Bills their opponents averaged giving up 160 yards per game (would have ranked 21st), but only 151 ypg versus the rest of the league (would have ranked 16th). In essence the rank of many of the Bills opponents, were a direct result of having to play them and OJ Simpsons, especially their division opponents who not only had to play them twice, but only had 12 other games to average out those big games as opposed to 14 for the Ram's 84 opponents. The Bills bested their opponents average by 61 yards per game, whereas the Rams did by 51 yards per game, a 20% difference.

All of this factored in, and with Dickerson needing 47 additional carries and two extra games to get 100 yards more than Simpson, and let's not forget that Dickerson had that big day in week 16 (second to last game) against the worst rush defense in the league, who was out of the playoff picture, beat up with injuries, and more or less gave up, really padded his numbers. I say that because historically the players who had 2000 yard or near seasons put up big numbers in week 15 and 16 as injury and attrition takes its toll on the defense, one of the things that makes Simpson's record all the more impressive. this is not a slight to Dickerson, just that much like Barry Sander's all purpose yards record was really never in jeopardy yesterday IMO due to the number of games played (11 vs 13), when comparing historical records you have to account for extra games (not accounting for injuries, just the length of the season).

On a side note, that is were Peterson missed the boat. He needed a big game this past week, as this is the time where playoff teams will play cautiously with injured players, and the team isn't on the hook for you setting the record against them. Next week Green Bay needs to win, so it's an all out war, and he may be on the outside looking int.

Dickerson did need 47 more carries to gain 102 more yards. But he faced no run defense as abjectly bad as New England in 1973, who OJ racked up almost 500 yards against. And OJ did not face the tough run defenses Dickerson faced. Dickerson faced buddy ryans bears D, bill parcells Giants D and Walsh's 49ers D. OJ avoided all the really good run Ds of 1973.

You say that, but they gave up the same yards per carry on average. And the average rank of defenses, excluding games against Dickerson and Simpson, were actually stronger against the bills. Essentially Dickerson did not play tougher defenses statistically.

I just don't see Toby Gerhart killing 7 hookers to break the record of most hooker's killed by a running mate

(12-28-2012 06:39 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  You say that, but they gave up the same yards per carry on average. And the average rank of defenses, excluding games against Dickerson and Simpson, were actually stronger against the bills. Essentially Dickerson did not play tougher defenses statistically.

I say it because it is true. OJ played two games against a terrible run defense and faced none of the really good ones while Dickerson did. Playing tougher middling defenses, as OJ apparently did to make the overall average the same, does not make up for that. It is the really soft defenses that you can make hay against while the really good ones can shut you down. The extremes matter more than the middle. The best situation for setting a record is playing some games against really bad run Ds while avoiding all the tough ones. That is what OJ faced, not Dickerson.

(12-28-2012 06:46 PM)texasflood Wrote:  

(12-28-2012 06:39 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  You say that, but they gave up the same yards per carry on average. And the average rank of defenses, excluding games against Dickerson and Simpson, were actually stronger against the bills. Essentially Dickerson did not play tougher defenses statistically.

I say it because it is true. OJ played two games against a terrible run defense and faced none of the really good ones while Dickerson did. Playing tougher middling defenses, as OJ apparently did to make the overall average the same, does not make up for that. It is the really soft defenses that you can make hay against while the really good ones can shut you down. The extremes matter more than the middle. The best situation for setting a record is playing some games against really bad run Ds while avoiding all the tough ones. That is what OJ faced, not Dickerson.

Plus, OJ murdered two people...so there's that.