Looking over the past 10 years the 5 schools being discussed (X, VCU, Butler, UD, Creighton) have better records and post season appearances than many C7 schools.

Other than the hype many C7 schools have received from playing Pitt, Syracuse, UL, etc ...i don't see any reason to believe that the 5 additions wouldn't be top of league or middle of pack at worst.

(I had the data to support it but somehow I lost it while trying to transfer on my iPad. Not spending 30 minutes regathering the data again)

(12-23-2012 04:57 PM)Roader Wrote:  Looking over the past 10 years the 5 schools being discussed (X, VCU, Butler, UD, Creighton) have better records and post season appearances than many C7 schools.

Other than the hype many C7 schools have received from playing Pitt, Syracuse, UL, etc ...i don't see any reason to believe that the 5 additions wouldn't be top of league or middle of pack at worst.

(I had the data to support it but somehow I lost it while trying to transfer on my iPad. Not spending 30 minutes regathering the data again)

I think the new additions will do great things but just remember that those C7 teams were playing in the greatest Basketball Conference ever assembled. Look who Dayton, Xavier, Butler, VCU, Creighton and St. Louis have played and who the C7 had to play. I think the C7 schools would have had more tournament appearances playing the schools those 6 got to play.

(12-23-2012 04:57 PM)Roader Wrote:  Looking over the past 10 years the 5 schools being discussed (X, VCU, Butler, UD, Creighton) have better records and post season appearances than many C7 schools.

Other than the hype many C7 schools have received from playing Pitt, Syracuse, UL, etc ...i don't see any reason to believe that the 5 additions wouldn't be top of league or middle of pack at worst.

(I had the data to support it but somehow I lost it while trying to transfer on my iPad. Not spending 30 minutes regathering the data again)

St Johns University.
Madison Square Garden.
(Mic drop.)

Seriously, you're right about some of the C-7 being question marks. That doesn't mean we bring in more question marks because Fox will give us a little more money.

(12-23-2012 05:01 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 04:57 PM)Roader Wrote:  Looking over the past 10 years the 5 schools being discussed (X, VCU, Butler, UD, Creighton) have better records and post season appearances than many C7 schools.

Other than the hype many C7 schools have received from playing Pitt, Syracuse, UL, etc ...i don't see any reason to believe that the 5 additions wouldn't be top of league or middle of pack at worst.

(I had the data to support it but somehow I lost it while trying to transfer on my iPad. Not spending 30 minutes regathering the data again)

I think the new additions will do great things but just remember that those C7 teams were playing in the greatest Basketball Conference ever assembled. Look who Dayton, Xavier, Butler, VCU, Creighton and St. Louis have played and who the C7 had to play. I think the C7 schools would have had more tournament appearances playing the schools those 6 got to play.

That cuts both ways. How many tourney wins would the BE have gotten without gobbling up other conference's at-large bids and getting artificially high seeds well past the league's prime?

(12-23-2012 06:26 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 04:57 PM)Roader Wrote:  Looking over the past 10 years the 5 schools being discussed (X, VCU, Butler, UD, Creighton) have better records and post season appearances than many C7 schools.

Other than the hype many C7 schools have received from playing Pitt, Syracuse, UL, etc ...i don't see any reason to believe that the 5 additions wouldn't be top of league or middle of pack at worst.

(I had the data to support it but somehow I lost it while trying to transfer on my iPad. Not spending 30 minutes regathering the data again)

St Johns University.
Madison Square Garden.
(Mic drop.)

Seriously, you're right about some of the C-7 being question marks. That doesn't mean we bring in more question marks because Fox will give us a little more money.

Yup. If you could though, would you drop a DePaul for a Creighton or WSU?

(12-23-2012 06:29 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 06:26 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 04:57 PM)Roader Wrote:  Looking over the past 10 years the 5 schools being discussed (X, VCU, Butler, UD, Creighton) have better records and post season appearances than many C7 schools.

Other than the hype many C7 schools have received from playing Pitt, Syracuse, UL, etc ...i don't see any reason to believe that the 5 additions wouldn't be top of league or middle of pack at worst.

(I had the data to support it but somehow I lost it while trying to transfer on my iPad. Not spending 30 minutes regathering the data again)

St Johns University.
Madison Square Garden.
(Mic drop.)

Seriously, you're right about some of the C-7 being question marks. That doesn't mean we bring in more question marks because Fox will give us a little more money.

Yup. If you could though, would you drop a DePaul for a Creighton or WSU?

Depaul gets an unearned pass because Chicago. I'm not a believer in markets as a lot of realignment fans are, but top 10 and top 5 markets are worth it, especially if you actually register in that market. Depaul isn't just IN Chicago, it has a presence in Chicago. So if DePaul gets good, you light up the Nielsens in Chicago. That's major.

Providence or Seton Hall, I could be convinced. Maybe--I've been a Big East fan for a long, long time, and I'd have a hard time dumping Big East schools. But if the dice had rolled diffferently, and say Butler, Gonzaga, BYU and Temple were putting this league together, I could easily see Providence and Seton Hall being passed over for Creighton and Wichita State.

Based on results I ran I should have clarified but I think we're all smart enough to figure out that the 5 possible newcomers were playing a somewhat weaker schedule. I don't know that any of them could have beaten the teams St. John, DePaul, etc play each season in conference play. This was more to get discussion started after the who/what is a mid-major debate.

(12-23-2012 06:26 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 05:01 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 04:57 PM)Roader Wrote:  Looking over the past 10 years the 5 schools being discussed (X, VCU, Butler, UD, Creighton) have better records and post season appearances than many C7 schools.

Other than the hype many C7 schools have received from playing Pitt, Syracuse, UL, etc ...i don't see any reason to believe that the 5 additions wouldn't be top of league or middle of pack at worst.

(I had the data to support it but somehow I lost it while trying to transfer on my iPad. Not spending 30 minutes regathering the data again)

I think the new additions will do great things but just remember that those C7 teams were playing in the greatest Basketball Conference ever assembled. Look who Dayton, Xavier, Butler, VCU, Creighton and St. Louis have played and who the C7 had to play. I think the C7 schools would have had more tournament appearances playing the schools those 6 got to play.

That cuts both ways. How many tourney wins would the BE have gotten without gobbling up other conference's at-large bids and getting artificially high seeds well past the league's prime?

Um when was after the leagues prime? The year we got 11 bids and the team who finished 9th in the regular season won the national title?

If any of those schools (Dayon, Xavier, etc.) have played in the Big East, you would've seen similar or worse records than the teams you are mentioning. Theres no way to truly measure which team is better, since you don't know how the A-10 schools would react to the monster that was the Big East.

(12-23-2012 08:11 PM)BEast Wrote:  If any of those schools (Dayon, Xavier, etc.) have played in the Big East, you would've seen similar or worse records than the teams you are mentioning. Theres no way to truly measure which team is better, since you don't know how the A-10 schools would react to the monster that was the Big East.

It's hard to compare. Schools that played in the Big East undoubtedly played a tougher conference schedule, but they generally got the benefit of the doubt for doing so. If you go .500 in the Big East and win a game or two in the conference tourney, you probably get an at-large. If you are Creighton, Gonzaga or Butler, you can't afford to lose more than 4 or 5 conference games max and still get an at-large. I remember in 2009, Creighton went like 27-6 or something like that and still couldn't get an at-large even though our RPI was like 40.

(12-23-2012 08:02 PM)Roader Wrote:  Based on results I ran I should have clarified but I think we're all smart enough to figure out that the 5 possible newcomers were playing a somewhat weaker schedule. I don't know that any of them could have beaten the teams St. John, DePaul, etc play each season in conference play. This was more to get discussion started after the who/what is a mid-major debate.

(12-23-2012 08:11 PM)BEast Wrote:  If any of those schools (Dayon, Xavier, etc.) have played in the Big East, you would've seen similar or worse records than the teams you are mentioning. Theres no way to truly measure which team is better, since you don't know how the A-10 schools would react to the monster that was the Big East.

I understand this, see my post above yours

^So then why not post in the thread that literally says: "What is a mid-major?"

(12-23-2012 08:21 PM)Jet915 Wrote:  It's hard to compare. Schools that played in the Big East undoubtedly played a tougher conference schedule, but they generally got the benefit of the doubt for doing so. If you go .500 in the Big East and win a game or two in the conference tourney, you probably get an at-large. If you are Creighton, Gonzaga or Butler, you can't afford to lose more than 4 or 5 conference games max and still get an at-large. I remember in 2009, Creighton went like 27-6 or something like that and still couldn't get an at-large even though our RPI was like 40.

Its impossible to compare. That year you guys played no one impressive.

Dayton's record vs. BCS conferences over last 5 seasons (17-9)
Only 4 home games, Dayton's 5 Year average RPI is 52.4
Louisville (W)
Pitt (L)
North Carolina (L)
Louisville (W)
Pitt (W)
Ohio State (L)
Auburn (w)
Marquette(W)
West Virginia (W)
Kansas (L)
Georgia Tech (W)
Villanova (L)
Kansas State (L)
Cincinatti (W)
Illinois (W)
Ole Miss (W)
North Carolina (W)
Ole Miss (w)
Cincinatti (L)
Seton Hall (W)
Wake Forest (w)
Minnesota (W)
Alabama (W)
Seton Hall (L)
Ole Miss (W)
Iowa (L)

Dayton's All Time Record Vs. C7
DePaul (35-34)
Georgetown (1-2)
Marquette (14-21), Dayton has won 5 of last 6
Providence (5-2)
St Johns (5-5)
Seton Hall (7-4)
Villanova (5-5)

Reasons a C7 fan may want Dayton in the same conference: You value substance over style. You want a school that has been very competitive with BCS teams. You want victories over a team to count and you want to avoid RPI craterring losses. You want a University and a fan base that is fully committed to college basketball.

Reasons a C7 fan may not want Dayton in the same conference. You value style over substance. At the end of the day, the University of Dayton and Flyer fans are unapologetically from Dayton, Ohio. You can't handle a loss to the Flyers - recent and distant history suggest the C7 will not win them all. You are looking for basketball programs that have made a recent splash in the NCAA as opposed to a basketball program that has just been consistently good. Labels like High Major and Mid Major mean a great deal to you. You enjoy commenting on branding and market size more than you enjoy watching a good college basketball game.

(12-23-2012 09:36 PM)BEast Wrote:  ^So then why not post in the thread that literally says: "What is a mid-major?"

This isn't about being a mid major. This is why do you feel the C7 schools are better than the possible incoming schools? I know it's hard for you to accept the fact the big public schools are leaving you behind for the ACC and other conferences and you are stuck with us mid-majors. However I think that the schools that move to this new league will hold their own and we can get over the mid-major debate

Strange turn of events on this thread. So is Dayton too good to join now? That's fine, we'll do alright with Xavier.

(12-23-2012 08:05 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 06:26 PM)thegalen Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 05:01 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 04:57 PM)Roader Wrote:  Looking over the past 10 years the 5 schools being discussed (X, VCU, Butler, UD, Creighton) have better records and post season appearances than many C7 schools.

Other than the hype many C7 schools have received from playing Pitt, Syracuse, UL, etc ...i don't see any reason to believe that the 5 additions wouldn't be top of league or middle of pack at worst.

(I had the data to support it but somehow I lost it while trying to transfer on my iPad. Not spending 30 minutes regathering the data again)

I think the new additions will do great things but just remember that those C7 teams were playing in the greatest Basketball Conference ever assembled. Look who Dayton, Xavier, Butler, VCU, Creighton and St. Louis have played and who the C7 had to play. I think the C7 schools would have had more tournament appearances playing the schools those 6 got to play.

That cuts both ways. How many tourney wins would the BE have gotten without gobbling up other conference's at-large bids and getting artificially high seeds well past the league's prime?

Um when was after the leagues prime? The year we got 11 bids and the team who finished 9th in the regular season won the national title?

Never. The Big East has always been at the very top of the power curve, and always will be forever and ever. At no point were teams ever getting the benefit of the doubt because of legacy considerations. Everything was 110% earned whereas all other teams got lucky or received more than their just desserts.

(12-23-2012 10:28 PM)ivet Wrote:  Strange turn of events on this thread. So is Dayton too good to join now? That's fine, we'll do alright with Xavier.

Learn it, love it, come to accept it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

(12-23-2012 09:56 PM)wcflyer Wrote:  Reasons a C7 fan may not want Dayton in the same conference. You value style over substance. At the end of the day, the University of Dayton and Flyer fans are unapologetically from Dayton, Ohio. You can't handle a loss to the Flyers - recent and distant history suggest the C7 will not win them all. You are looking for basketball programs that have made a recent splash in the NCAA as opposed to a basketball program that has just been consistently good. Labels like High Major and Mid Major mean a great deal to you. You enjoy commenting on branding and market size more than you enjoy watching a good college basketball game.

No, that's not it. We're looking for programs that can help the conference compete, perception-wise, in the tournament and non-conference, with the Big Ten, SEC, Big 12 and NBE. (The ACC is far out ahead of the pack now with Syracuse, Louisville, Duke and Carolina plus GT, Pitt and Notre Dame.) And Dayton doesn't help us do that.

You come back with, neither do St John's, Depaul, Providence or Seton Hall? Maybe so, but we're already inside. If a league were starting from scratch, DAyton's application would look better than some of ours. But we're looking to add schools who are better than that, over a reasonable time period.

Quote:You enjoy commenting on branding and market size more than you enjoy watching a good college basketball game.

That's not 100% unfair. Staying in the national conversation is a big issue for the C-7 schools.

(12-23-2012 10:28 PM)ivet Wrote:  Strange turn of events on this thread. So is Dayton too good to join now? That's fine, we'll do alright with Xavier.

I would say dayton has failed to perform to the standard it should over past 10 years. Many dayton fans will agree with me that winning games against "BCS" teams OOC and then going 9-9 in A10 play is not acceptable.

However, this boards perception of the possible incoming schools is crazy. At least 4 of the 7 C7 schools haven't done much of anything past 10 years. All 7 of these schools would have been labeled mid-major by the media whether you like it or not had they not had the many BE schools to prop them up. Now that they are gone the A10 teams that join up with the C7 will get a boost from their mid-major status but the C7 is going to be down graded from high major status as well. It's a fact of life. None of us are OSU, Kansas, Cuse, UNC, etc