Founding Seven...

#1 New York (St. John's, Seton Hall)
#3 Chicago (DePaul)
#4 Philadelphia (Villanova)
#9 Washington (Georgetown)
#35 Milwaukee (Marquette)
#52 Providence-New Bedford (Providence)

Rumored to be in...

#25 Indianapolis (Butler)
#34 Cincinnati (Xavier)

Top candidates...

#21 St. Louis (St. Louis)
#58 Richmond-Petersburg (Richmond, VCU)
#64 Dayton (Dayton)
#76 Omaha (Creighton)

Low candidates...

#6 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose (St. Mary's)
#7 Boston (Holy Cross)
#11 Detroit (Detroit Mercy)
#21 Pittsburgh (Duquesne)
#57 Albany-Schenectady-Troy (Siena)
#69 Wichita-Hutchinson (Wichita State)
#71 Des Moines-Ames (Drake)
#75 Spokane (Gonzaga)

I wish that we had more accurate numbers than the media rankings. For instance, take Temple. They are technically in the #4 media market, yet they clearly don't have the entire following of that market. Whereas Gonzaga probably gets nearly every potential viewer in the Spokane market.

How would you get more accurate rankings? Essentially, you have to figure how many people in the market will turn the TV on for a team in that market. They don't have to be fans of that team necessarily, just interested in watching the games. I have no idea how to figure this out, but I think ESPN had something similar for college football teams.

Just an FYI, Cincinnati and Dayton are going to merge into one metro area.

(12-21-2012 07:51 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  Just an FYI, Cincinnati and Dayton are going to merge into one metro area.

Does that impact Dayton's desirability? That would double it would Xavier.

Also, the combined market size would put it at #20, between Sacramento and Orlando-Daytona Beach. Just for information's sake.

(12-21-2012 08:01 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 07:51 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  Just an FYI, Cincinnati and Dayton are going to merge into one metro area.

Does that impact Dayton's desirability? That would double it would Xavier.

Also, the combined market size would put it at #20, between Sacramento and Orlando-Daytona Beach. Just for information's sake.

Xavier does not land the Dayton market. At all. They don't air Xavier games on local Dayton stations like they do many UD games and they wouldn't start if Xavier were in the Big East and Dayton wasn't. There just aren't that many people in Dayton that root for Xavier.

But the two cities absolutely are growing more and more contiguous. It'll probably be a several more decades, though, before they even begin to be talked about like Dallas-Ft. Worth, Minny-St. Paul or Tampa-St. Pete. Even once that happens I think the two will remain two distinct regions and that Xavier would have a hard time cracking the Dayton market.

I think Dayton's probably the 4th best add after Xavier, Butler and VCU. Creighton is about equal with Dayton. I think both are ahead of SLU. Jmo. Think you should take into account basketball success, basketball support, rivalries and markets. I don't think you can discount the UD-X rivalry.

Jimmy Carter doesn't know of any Xavier-Dayton rivalry.

Apologies for cross-thread hyping my own post, but this is important when talking about DMAs...

Keep in mind that populations (and thus DMA market rankings) follow power laws. For easy comparison I plotted the most recent Nielson maket rankings by population and marked off DC along with each market by school color (blue = X, yellow = VCU, red = Dayton).


70% of VCU's incoming classes hail from the Washington DC/NoVa market, which is 8th in the country and distinct from Baltimore at 27th. With VCU you own Richmond, and thanks to synergy with GTown, would get more coverage in a much bigger market than Dayton/Cinci combined.

Also, VCU is THE best college basketball in the state of VA and no one cares about the Wizards. Dayton's relatively further down Ohio's hoops/sports pecking order (and 50 miles from split-market Cinci).

(12-22-2012 10:11 PM)bmorex Wrote:  Jimmy Carter doesn't know of any Xavier-Dayton rivalry.

If it weren't actually a rivalry you wouldn't have felt compelled to respond. Nice win against Wofford.

(12-23-2012 12:31 AM)thegalen Wrote:  70% of VCU's incoming classes hail from the Washington DC/NoVa market, which is 8th in the country and distinct from Baltimore at 27th. With VCU you own Richmond, and thanks to synergy with GTown, would get more coverage in a much bigger market than Dayton/Cinci combined.

Also, VCU is THE best college basketball in the state of VA and no one cares about the Wizards. Dayton's relatively further down Ohio's hoops/sports pecking order (and 50 miles from split-market Cinci).

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting taking Dayton over VCU. I'm a UD proponent and I'm not even suggesting that. Either way, your chart shows Dayton and Richmond have similar sized markets (per Nielsen). VCU clearly has better recent success. But VCU is hardly Virginia's basketball team. You had less fans than both VT and UVA last year. Despite being in a slightly larger market and claiming to own your market more than Dayton, you averaged 4,500 less fans per game than UD. No matter who the Big East adds, Dayton will have no worse than the 3rd best attendance figures in the expanded conference. Just saying.

(12-22-2012 09:40 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 08:01 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 07:51 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  Just an FYI, Cincinnati and Dayton are going to merge into one metro area.

Does that impact Dayton's desirability? That would double it would Xavier.

Also, the combined market size would put it at #20, between Sacramento and Orlando-Daytona Beach. Just for information's sake.

Xavier does not land the Dayton market. At all. They don't air Xavier games on local Dayton stations like they do many UD games and they wouldn't start if Xavier were in the Big East and Dayton wasn't. There just aren't that many people in Dayton that root for Xavier.

But the two cities absolutely are growing more and more contiguous. It'll probably be a several more decades, though, before they even begin to be talked about like Dallas-Ft. Worth, Minny-St. Paul or Tampa-St. Pete. Even once that happens I think the two will remain two distinct regions and that Xavier would have a hard time cracking the Dayton market.

I think Dayton's probably the 4th best add after Xavier, Butler and VCU. Creighton is about equal with Dayton. I think both are ahead of SLU. Jmo. Think you should take into account basketball success, basketball support, rivalries and markets. I don't think you can discount the UD-X rivalry.

The reason X is not on local TV in Dayton is because Xavier is not on local TV. If they are not on ESPN or CBS College Spots, they are on Fox Ohio. All of Xavier's games are televised at least regionally.

The X-UD game is a rivalry; however, it has been very one sided over the last 30+ years. Also, there is no argument that can be made that UD is even close to being equal with Creighton, VCU, or Gonzaga. Maybe, St Louis.

(12-23-2012 01:53 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 10:11 PM)bmorex Wrote:  Jimmy Carter doesn't know of any Xavier-Dayton rivalry.

If it weren't actually a rivalry you wouldn't have felt compelled to respond. Nice win against Wofford.

(12-23-2012 12:31 AM)thegalen Wrote:  70% of VCU's incoming classes hail from the Washington DC/NoVa market, which is 8th in the country and distinct from Baltimore at 27th. With VCU you own Richmond, and thanks to synergy with GTown, would get more coverage in a much bigger market than Dayton/Cinci combined.

Also, VCU is THE best college basketball in the state of VA and no one cares about the Wizards. Dayton's relatively further down Ohio's hoops/sports pecking order (and 50 miles from split-market Cinci).

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting taking Dayton over VCU. I'm a UD proponent and I'm not even suggesting that. Either way, your chart shows Dayton and Richmond have similar sized markets (per Nielsen). VCU clearly has better recent success. But VCU is hardly Virginia's basketball team. You had less fans than both VT and UVA last year. Despite being in a slightly larger market and claiming to own your market more than Dayton, you averaged 4,500 less fans per game than UD. No matter who the Big East adds, Dayton will have no worse than the 3rd best attendance figures in the expanded conference. Just saying.

Right- smaller venue = fewer attendees, even if you've got a 25 game sellout streak going. VCU absolutely owns Richmond when it comes to basketball. VCU basically IS the city of Richmond. It took over downtown and helped turn the city around into what it is now. As for Tech and UVA fans, there are definitely more of them, but that's not what I was noting. I was noting that VCU basketball is the best basketball in the state. That's a fact and has been for a few years now. Dayton's got great fans and facilities and is in a good market. VCU is definitely not there yet. My intent in pointing out that 70% of VCU's 30,000 students come from (and go back to work in) a top 10 media market wasn't an attempt to take away from that.

(12-23-2012 01:53 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 10:11 PM)bmorex Wrote:  Jimmy Carter doesn't know of any Xavier-Dayton rivalry.

If it weren't actually a rivalry you wouldn't have felt compelled to respond. Nice win against Wofford.

Haha, just a joke Marge, chill. Despite what some X fans say, there is definitely a rivalry between the two schools. There is a reason why students line up for the Dayton games at Cintas earlier than other ones (excluding Cincinnati and maybe Butler).

With that said, I wouldn't be upset nor happy if Dayton were included in the new conference. It would be what it would be. Like every teams' fans, I just want what is best for the future of my team and the university.

I look at it like this: Dayton considers Xavier it's biggest rival, Xavier considers Cincinnati it's biggest rival, Cincinnati considers Louisville it's biggest rival, Louisville considers Kentucky it's biggest rival and Kentucky fans have such an inflated view of their program they consider no one their rival.

(12-23-2012 07:36 AM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 09:40 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 08:01 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 07:51 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  Just an FYI, Cincinnati and Dayton are going to merge into one metro area.

Does that impact Dayton's desirability? That would double it would Xavier.

Also, the combined market size would put it at #20, between Sacramento and Orlando-Daytona Beach. Just for information's sake.

Xavier does not land the Dayton market. At all. They don't air Xavier games on local Dayton stations like they do many UD games and they wouldn't start if Xavier were in the Big East and Dayton wasn't. There just aren't that many people in Dayton that root for Xavier.

But the two cities absolutely are growing more and more contiguous. It'll probably be a several more decades, though, before they even begin to be talked about like Dallas-Ft. Worth, Minny-St. Paul or Tampa-St. Pete. Even once that happens I think the two will remain two distinct regions and that Xavier would have a hard time cracking the Dayton market.

I think Dayton's probably the 4th best add after Xavier, Butler and VCU. Creighton is about equal with Dayton. I think both are ahead of SLU. Jmo. Think you should take into account basketball success, basketball support, rivalries and markets. I don't think you can discount the UD-X rivalry.

The reason X is not on local TV in Dayton is because Xavier is not on local TV. If they are not on ESPN or CBS College Spots, they are on Fox Ohio. All of Xavier's games are televised at least regionally.

The X-UD game is a rivalry; however, it has been very one sided over the last 30+ years. Also, there is no argument that can be made that UD is even close to being equal with Creighton, VCU, or Gonzaga. Maybe, St Louis.

Yet you still have a losing record against UD. Both are some of the best "non-major" programs out there. Only 3 non-majors average more attendance (only 1 of them is a private university) than UD. Only X has a higher basketball-generated revenue stream of the non-majors. Xavier has obviously had the better teams more often than not recently but that's not due to lack of fan support, money or facilities. UD isn't the Big East's first choice but I don't think you could really argue with them getting invite #3, 4 or 5.

Outside of the past 5 years, VCU has nothing on UD. I think that's pretty easy to see for any logical person. But I've said VCU may be a higher-priority add than UD in this thread and/or others. They had that Final Four run the other year when they shouldn't have even received a berth, but because of that they are definitely a bigger "name" right now. I feel others were more qualified (but this is besides the point). For a time, George Mason was a big name, too, but they have since slipped back down some. Roughly equal market sizes. Dayton has the much larger arena (better facilities?) and greater attendance figures and higher revenue.

Dayton isn't even close to Creighton? I don't see how not. Creighton is much closer to Dayton imo than Xavier or Gonzaga. I see Creighton very similar to Dayton but with better attendance (less revenue) and slightly more NCAAT success the last 20 years. Maybe I'm wrong. But I've also said Creighton may be a higher priority than Dayton, too. But I think the two are very similar. Big attendance. Solid histories. Similar markets.

Gonzaga has definitely had better basketball teams than Dayton this last decade. But how stupid would they have to be to play all their road games thousands of miles away? It just makes no sense to me. The travel costs would eat a nice chunk of their pay. I've read they already have to pay $750K to house their Olympic sports out west. Even if they put their Olympic sports in the Big East they'd probably end up paying that $750K in travel expenses anyways. That's not even considering the competitive disadvantage they'll be at playing half their games that far from Spokane or the jet lag and potential academic concerns their athletes may face. If they weren't closer to Alaska than Rhode Island, they'd make a ton of sense. (Not sure if they really are closer to AK than RI.)

Only a Xavier fan would say Dayton was "maybe" comparable to Saint Louis.

====================

For those wondering, ESPN delineates Dayton as a separate market from Cincinnati. Cincy was rated their #7 basketball-watching market (2.1) and Dayton was 8th (2.0). That's higher than Indy (1.8), St. Louis (1.2) and Richmond (1.1). Omaha wasn't listed in the top 27.

I'd probably rank Dayton #5 on a list of candidates ahead of SLU and after Creighton, VCU, Xavier and Butler.

(12-23-2012 10:41 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  For those wondering, ESPN delineates Dayton as a separate market from Cincinnati. Cincy was rated their #7 basketball-watching market (2.1) and Dayton was 8th (2.0). That's higher than Indy (1.8), St. Louis (1.2) and Richmond (1.1). Omaha wasn't listed in the top 27.

I'd probably rank Dayton #5 on a list of candidates ahead of SLU and after Creighton, VCU, Xavier and Butler.

I've been looking for that basketball market thing for awhile, thanks for posting it. However, I think it should be noted that Cincinnati and Dayton's media markets may merge in the next few years (as the metropolitan areas expand into each other, so I've heard), which is why I've worried about the potential market overlap.

(12-23-2012 09:03 AM)thegalen Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 01:53 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 10:11 PM)bmorex Wrote:  Jimmy Carter doesn't know of any Xavier-Dayton rivalry.

If it weren't actually a rivalry you wouldn't have felt compelled to respond. Nice win against Wofford.

(12-23-2012 12:31 AM)thegalen Wrote:  70% of VCU's incoming classes hail from the Washington DC/NoVa market, which is 8th in the country and distinct from Baltimore at 27th. With VCU you own Richmond, and thanks to synergy with GTown, would get more coverage in a much bigger market than Dayton/Cinci combined.

Also, VCU is THE best college basketball in the state of VA and no one cares about the Wizards. Dayton's relatively further down Ohio's hoops/sports pecking order (and 50 miles from split-market Cinci).

I'm not sure anyone is suggesting taking Dayton over VCU. I'm a UD proponent and I'm not even suggesting that. Either way, your chart shows Dayton and Richmond have similar sized markets (per Nielsen). VCU clearly has better recent success. But VCU is hardly Virginia's basketball team. You had less fans than both VT and UVA last year. Despite being in a slightly larger market and claiming to own your market more than Dayton, you averaged 4,500 less fans per game than UD. No matter who the Big East adds, Dayton will have no worse than the 3rd best attendance figures in the expanded conference. Just saying.

Right- smaller venue = fewer attendees, even if you've got a 25 game sellout streak going. VCU absolutely owns Richmond when it comes to basketball. VCU basically IS the city of Richmond. It took over downtown and helped turn the city around into what it is now. As for Tech and UVA fans, there are definitely more of them, but that's not what I was noting. I was noting that VCU basketball is the best basketball in the state. That's a fact and has been for a few years now. Dayton's got great fans and facilities and is in a good market. VCU is definitely not there yet. My intent in pointing out that 70% of VCU's 30,000 students come from (and go back to work in) a top 10 media market wasn't an attempt to take away from that.

The only way I see VCU not being invited is if the Big East doesn't invite them due to their status as a larger, public university (and maybe the future chance you add football).

How many fans do you think VCU could consistently draw if it had a bigger venue?

(12-23-2012 12:37 PM)bmorex Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 01:53 AM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 10:11 PM)bmorex Wrote:  Jimmy Carter doesn't know of any Xavier-Dayton rivalry.

If it weren't actually a rivalry you wouldn't have felt compelled to respond. Nice win against Wofford.

Haha, just a joke Marge, chill. Despite what some X fans say, there is definitely a rivalry between the two schools. There is a reason why students line up for the Dayton games at Cintas earlier than other ones (excluding Cincinnati and maybe Butler).

With that said, I wouldn't be upset nor happy if Dayton were included in the new conference. It would be what it would be. Like every teams' fans, I just want what is best for the future of my team and the university.

Absolutely. Doubt very much you'd try to keep UD out. But I also doubt you'd go out of your way to get UD in, unless it came down to UD or some school X just didn't care very much about.

(12-23-2012 06:44 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  I look at it like this: Dayton considers Xavier it's biggest rival, Xavier considers Cincinnati it's biggest rival, Cincinnati considers Louisville it's biggest rival, Louisville considers Kentucky it's biggest rival and Kentucky fans have such an inflated view of their program they consider no one their rival.

I think that's fairly accurate. And all of those rivalries are good rivalries, even if the two schools aren't each other's #1 rival. Plenty of schools have multiple big rivalries. For example, Pitt football with Notre Dame, West Virginia and historically Penn State.

Quote:For those wondering, ESPN delineates Dayton as a separate market from Cincinnati. Cincy was rated their #7 basketball-watching market (2.1) and Dayton was 8th (2.0). That's higher than Indy (1.8), St. Louis (1.2) and Richmond (1.1). Omaha wasn't listed in the top 27.

It isn't up to ESPN to designate markets. The ESPN link is a press release about Nielsen's data. Nielsen monitors TV trends in all the DMAs (poorly, some would say); but they don't determine markets either. Contacting and collecting data from 330 million+ people is a big project, bigger than one they can do on their own, and it's already being done by...

The US Census Bureau. The Census Bureau has a system of statistics to decide what the DMAs are.

For the Cincy/Dayton/Middletown area, Middletown joined the Cincy DMA a while back because of the number of commuters living in Middletown and working in Cincy.

With the development of I-75 as a catalyst, Middletown is growing. More people from the Dayton DMA are living in Middletown now, which means more commuters from Middletown to Dayton, which triggers a Cincy-Dayton-Middletown merged DMA.

That's expected in 2013, because that's when the USCB will be done disseminating all the last census data.

Long Story Short: When the merger happens, you'll have the #16 market in the country with three high-level basketball programs. Is TV going to think that one of the three schools delivers the entire Cincinnati-Dayton-Middletown DMA? Having two of the three, TV will absolutely agree that you CAN deliver a market that big.

And that's why taking Dayton along with Xavier probably brings you more viewers to TV than if you took Xavier and VCU (a market also divided with Univ. of Richmond), or Xavier and Creighton (full of Cornhusker fans, too).

(12-24-2012 04:54 PM)JPSchmack Wrote:  

Quote:For those wondering, ESPN delineates Dayton as a separate market from Cincinnati. Cincy was rated their #7 basketball-watching market (2.1) and Dayton was 8th (2.0). That's higher than Indy (1.8), St. Louis (1.2) and Richmond (1.1). Omaha wasn't listed in the top 27.

It isn't up to ESPN to designate markets. The ESPN link is a press release about Nielsen's data. Nielsen monitors TV trends in all the DMAs (poorly, some would say); but they don't determine markets either. Contacting and collecting data from 330 million+ people is a big project, bigger than one they can do on their own, and it's already being done by...

The US Census Bureau. The Census Bureau has a system of statistics to decide what the DMAs are.

For the Cincy/Dayton/Middletown area, Middletown joined the Cincy DMA a while back because of the number of commuters living in Middletown and working in Cincy.

With the development of I-75 as a catalyst, Middletown is growing. More people from the Dayton DMA are living in Middletown now, which means more commuters from Middletown to Dayton, which triggers a Cincy-Dayton-Middletown merged DMA.

That's expected in 2013, because that's when the USCB will be done disseminating all the last census data.

Long Story Short: When the merger happens, you'll have the #16 market in the country with three high-level basketball programs. Is TV going to think that one of the three schools delivers the entire Cincinnati-Dayton-Middletown DMA? Having two of the three, TV will absolutely agree that you CAN deliver a market that big.

And that's why taking Dayton along with Xavier probably brings you more viewers to TV than if you took Xavier and VCU (a market also divided with Univ. of Richmond), or Xavier and Creighton (full of Cornhusker fans, too).

Richmond is by no means divided between UR and VCU. VCU owns Richmond. Also, see the other thread re: college basketball markets. VCU bring with it hundreds of thousands of alumni who live in the Northern Virginia/DC, Norfolk/Hampton Roads and Richmond markets. All three are top 30 college basketball markets. Also, VCU is simply the best college ball in the state of VA. Has been for some time. The questiom becomes do you want to triple down on Ohio-Indy-Kentucky region with Butler, X and Dayton, or look to build into the BosWash corridor running from Georgetown up to New York. If 12 teams are an option then the choice becomes a lot easier, but there are compelling arguments for both sides even if I'm biased towards VCU.

(12-24-2012 05:58 PM)thegalen Wrote:  The questiom becomes do you want to triple down on Ohio-Indy-Kentucky region with Butler, X and Dayton, or look to build into the BosWash corridor running from Georgetown up to New York. If 12 teams are an option then the choice becomes a lot easier, but there are compelling arguments for both sides even if I'm biased towards VCU.

I'd agree with lots of what you said. I think their best move is 12 with UD and VCU. But do you think they'll take 9 or 11 private schools and ONE public school? (And I'm biased too: I'm hoping UD and VCU are both left out because I'm a Bona grad and we got no shot at getting invited).

One of the reasons I think the best move is 12 with all "A-10" teams is because if you leave the A-10 with VCU, Dayton, Richmond, UMass, Saint Joe's (and you know they'll add George Mason), etc, they have a strong base and plenty to build from.

That's STILL a conference that can get three bids a year. Their remaining members would have more at-large bids earned over the last 15 years than C-USA, MWC, WCC or MVC. They'd be the #7 or #8 conference… like they are now.

(12-23-2012 10:41 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(12-23-2012 07:36 AM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  

(12-22-2012 09:40 PM)Marge Schott Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 08:01 PM)College Basketball Fan Wrote:  

(12-21-2012 07:51 PM)Bearcat_Bounce Wrote:  Just an FYI, Cincinnati and Dayton are going to merge into one metro area.

Does that impact Dayton's desirability? That would double it would Xavier.

Also, the combined market size would put it at #20, between Sacramento and Orlando-Daytona Beach. Just for information's sake.

Xavier does not land the Dayton market. At all. They don't air Xavier games on local Dayton stations like they do many UD games and they wouldn't start if Xavier were in the Big East and Dayton wasn't. There just aren't that many people in Dayton that root for Xavier.

But the two cities absolutely are growing more and more contiguous. It'll probably be a several more decades, though, before they even begin to be talked about like Dallas-Ft. Worth, Minny-St. Paul or Tampa-St. Pete. Even once that happens I think the two will remain two distinct regions and that Xavier would have a hard time cracking the Dayton market.

I think Dayton's probably the 4th best add after Xavier, Butler and VCU. Creighton is about equal with Dayton. I think both are ahead of SLU. Jmo. Think you should take into account basketball success, basketball support, rivalries and markets. I don't think you can discount the UD-X rivalry.

The reason X is not on local TV in Dayton is because Xavier is not on local TV. If they are not on ESPN or CBS College Spots, they are on Fox Ohio. All of Xavier's games are televised at least regionally.

The X-UD game is a rivalry; however, it has been very one sided over the last 30+ years. Also, there is no argument that can be made that UD is even close to being equal with Creighton, VCU, or Gonzaga. Maybe, St Louis.

Yet you still have a losing record against UD. Both are some of the best "non-major" programs out there. Only 3 non-majors average more attendance (only 1 of them is a private university) than UD. Only X has a higher basketball-generated revenue stream of the non-majors. Xavier has obviously had the better teams more often than not recently but that's not due to lack of fan support, money or facilities. UD isn't the Big East's first choice but I don't think you could really argue with them getting invite #3, 4 or 5.

Outside of the past 5 years, VCU has nothing on UD. I think that's pretty easy to see for any logical person. But I've said VCU may be a higher-priority add than UD in this thread and/or others. They had that Final Four run the other year when they shouldn't have even received a berth, but because of that they are definitely a bigger "name" right now. I feel others were more qualified (but this is besides the point). For a time, George Mason was a big name, too, but they have since slipped back down some. Roughly equal market sizes. Dayton has the much larger arena (better facilities?) and greater attendance figures and higher revenue.

Dayton isn't even close to Creighton? I don't see how not. Creighton is much closer to Dayton imo than Xavier or Gonzaga. I see Creighton very similar to Dayton but with better attendance (less revenue) and slightly more NCAAT success the last 20 years. Maybe I'm wrong. But I've also said Creighton may be a higher priority than Dayton, too. But I think the two are very similar. Big attendance. Solid histories. Similar markets.

Gonzaga has definitely had better basketball teams than Dayton this last decade. But how stupid would they have to be to play all their road games thousands of miles away? It just makes no sense to me. The travel costs would eat a nice chunk of their pay. I've read they already have to pay $750K to house their Olympic sports out west. Even if they put their Olympic sports in the Big East they'd probably end up paying that $750K in travel expenses anyways. That's not even considering the competitive disadvantage they'll be at playing half their games that far from Spokane or the jet lag and potential academic concerns their athletes may face. If they weren't closer to Alaska than Rhode Island, they'd make a ton of sense. (Not sure if they really are closer to AK than RI.)

Only a Xavier fan would say Dayton was "maybe" comparable to Saint Louis.

====================

For those wondering, ESPN delineates Dayton as a separate market from Cincinnati. Cincy was rated their #7 basketball-watching market (2.1) and Dayton was 8th (2.0). That's higher than Indy (1.8), St. Louis (1.2) and Richmond (1.1). Omaha wasn't listed in the top 27.

I'd probably rank Dayton #5 on a list of candidates ahead of SLU and after Creighton, VCU, Xavier and Butler.

You're right Dayton has a winning record against Xavier; however, over the last 30 years it has been lopsided. Yep, that's right. Dayton hasn't beaten Xavier in Cincinnati since the middle of January 1981. Ronald Reagan had not yet been sworn in for his first term. You have to stop living in the 60's and the 70's. I believe the difference is now 9 or 10 games. If that's what you're holding on to maybe you should hope that we aren't in the same conference so you don't have to play us twice a year.

Creighton has appeared in the NCAA tournament 7 times in the last 20 years with 3 tourney wins. St. Louis has 5 appearances and three wins in the same period. What does Dayton bring? 4 appearances and 1 win. I guess I was being kind when I said "maybe"

(12-24-2012 10:02 PM)Xumuskie1994 Wrote:  Creighton has appeared in the NCAA tournament 7 times in the last 20 years with 3 tourney wins. St. Louis has 5 appearances and three wins in the same period. What does Dayton bring? 4 appearances and 1 win. I guess I was being kind when I said "maybe"

Comparing NCAA bids to NCAA bids in conferences at different levels is apples to oranges.

How many of Creighton's seven bids were autos for winning the Valley in years they would not have gotten an at-large?

2002 - They aren't getting an at-large at 1-6 vs the Top 95.
2000, - #59 RPI. Wouldn't get an at-large at 4-6 vs the Top 100 of the RPI when those four wins were 3 MVC teams who also beat them, and #60 Iowa.

All those NCAA bids stats tell me is that Creighton doesn't have to go through Xavier, Temple and (insert the third A-10 contender here) 4-7 times a season, and in the conference tournament.

Fun little exercise. Compare Siena and LaSalle over the last six years. Siena's got NCAA bids and La Salle doesn't. But they have about the same amount of wins, same amount of GOOD WINS, but La Salle has about 20 more Top 50 RPI losses because of their conference affiliation.