(12-19-2012 03:56 PM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:07 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Big East ECU Greenville-Spartanville-Asheville 192,690

Dude...you can't even get the state right...let alone the city right.

Spartanville?

Do you mean Spartanburg, SC?

Asheville? As in Asheville, NC?

What the heck does Asheville, NC have to do with ECU? Asheville is located on the other side of the state...probably 350 miles away from Greenville, NC.

No clue where you are getting your figures and/or made-up town names from.

He has the numbers correct for Greenville, NC at 192,000 (Greenville, SC metro is probably closer to 750,000) just picked up the wrong metro name and counting the Rawlee market is what we have been fighting for a long time since the market is only 13 miles from our campus and the Rawlee metro is loaded with ECU fans and alumni.

(12-19-2012 03:39 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 03:24 PM)PGPirate Wrote:  When doing metros, using the Census definition of a metro isn't the way to go. Nielsen should be the determination. Being, TV markets is what matters.

I mentioned why I used those numbers. Using dma's across the board is a painstaking endevor because neilsen info only uses households, whereas state data uses population. There are too many smaller tv markets that would have to individually be calculated. Also tv markets are dinosaurs these days, as it really only matters if you are taking purely over the air stations. Otherwise you really need to look at cable markets, which really matter most, in terms of who carries what, but there is no consitant data on this.

Using Nielsen market numbers only. Since it only matters about the TVs and not the people actually watching.

(12-19-2012 03:56 PM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:07 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Big East ECU Greenville-Spartanville-Asheville 192,690

Dude...you can't even get the state right...let alone the city right.

Spartanville?

Do you mean Spartanburg, SC?

Asheville? As in Asheville, NC?

What the heck does Asheville, NC have to do with ECU? Asheville is located on the other side of the state...probably 350 miles away from Greenville, NC.

No clue where you are getting your figures and/or made-up town names from.

So if you are going to sit and ***** and moan read the entire thread. This was mentioned above. And did you really say I made up town names? Really? It was mentioned above when I first did the numbers I picked up the wrong Greenville. I corrected the numbers but on my spreadsheet only the first name is visible so I did not realize when I copied and pasted here it still had the "other" Greenville. However no one, and I mean no one who knows anything about that are, would ever confuse the population number listed there of less than 200,000 for Greenville, sc which has 3/4 of a million people.

(12-19-2012 05:58 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  So if you are going to sit and ***** and moan read the entire thread. This was mentioned above. And did you really say I made up town names? Really? It was mentioned above when I first did the numbers I picked up the wrong Greenville. I corrected the numbers but on my spreadsheet only the first name is visible so I did not realize when I copied and pasted here it still had the "other" Greenville. However no one, and I mean no one who knows anything about that are, would ever confuse the population number listed there of less than 200,000 for Greenville, sc which has 3/4 of a million people.

No good deed goes unpunished. :)

(12-19-2012 03:56 PM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:07 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Big East ECU Greenville-Spartanville-Asheville 192,690

Dude...you can't even get the state right...let alone the city right.

Spartanville?

Do you mean Spartanburg, SC?

Asheville? As in Asheville, NC?

What the heck does Asheville, NC have to do with ECU? Asheville is located on the other side of the state...probably 350 miles away from Greenville, NC.

No clue where you are getting your figures and/or made-up town names from.

So if you are going to bit h and ***** and moan at least read the entire thread. This was mentioned above. And did you really say I made up town names? Really? Anyway It was mentioned above when I first did the numbers I picked up the wrong Greenville (this actually happened with a few cities because the tv market list doesn't mention the state- Columbia and Springfield were issues as well). I corrected the numbers but on my spreadsheet only the first name is visible so I did not realize when I copied and pasted here it still had the "other" Greenville. However no one, and I mean no one who knows anything about that are, would ever confuse the population number listed there of less than 200,000 for Greenville, sc which has 3/4 of a million people.

The point of this thread was to provide a snapshot of what the league has to sell as a footprint. There are many other factors involved but with the market reach cut in half it is something that may be looked at.

(12-19-2012 06:02 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  The point of this thread was to provide a snapshot of what the league has to sell as a footprint.

Well...sorry, it was an epic fail.

(Still trying to figure out where the town of Spartanville is located).

(12-19-2012 06:23 PM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 06:02 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  The point of this thread was to provide a snapshot of what the league has to sell as a footprint.

Well...sorry, it was an epic fail.

(Still trying to figure out where the town of Spartanville is located).

Do you like this one better?
http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=608407
"Incredible Shrinking Contract"?

It has all the towns spelled right.

(12-19-2012 06:23 PM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 06:02 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  The point of this thread was to provide a snapshot of what the league has to sell as a footprint.

Well...sorry, it was an epic fail.

(Still trying to figure out where the town of Spartanville is located).

Yeah, I'd say not. And I can't be held accountable for your lack of geographic knowledge.

(12-19-2012 01:53 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:19 PM)Pirate1 Wrote:  That Greenville/Spartanburg thing is the wrong Greenville. That be the SC one. ECU is Washington , New Bern, Greenville and Raleigh.
Everything east of I 95 is 3 million plus and that is PIRATE COUNTRY

No it's not, at least not the number. It has to do with when I initially input the info I was using DMA's (I did have the wrong one then), and when I realized my numbers were distorted, DMA's had household numbers, while other datapools had total population, so I ad to change my data to use metro areas. I updated it to include the correct Greenville, but just I just forgot to change the label. Alos Greenville, SC , is actually larger, so that would not "help."

Then you need to change that to metro area populations and take out Washington and New Bern. The Greenville metro area is Pitt County the 192,000 number you have listed, but the Greenville DMA which includes Washington and New Bern has 307,610 tv households and the total population for that area is around 370,000.

(12-19-2012 01:22 PM)Blood and Ebony Wrote:  When considering Fresno St. I believe you need to add the Sacramento/Modesto market to their numbers. Fresno St. is heavily followed in this market. Combined it makes a big difference.

No that would be too much to add. You should add the Bakersfield DMA however which is separate for some strange reason. I would also add about 1/4 to be conservative of the SSM DMA which is about right.

(12-19-2012 08:07 PM)ecumbh1999 Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:53 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:19 PM)Pirate1 Wrote:  That Greenville/Spartanburg thing is the wrong Greenville. That be the SC one. ECU is Washington , New Bern, Greenville and Raleigh.
Everything east of I 95 is 3 million plus and that is PIRATE COUNTRY

No it's not, at least not the number. It has to do with when I initially input the info I was using DMA's (I did have the wrong one then), and when I realized my numbers were distorted, DMA's had household numbers, while other datapools had total population, so I ad to change my data to use metro areas. I updated it to include the correct Greenville, but just I just forgot to change the label. Alos Greenville, SC , is actually larger, so that would not "help."

Then you need to change that to metro area populations and take out Washington and New Bern. The Greenville metro area is Pitt County the 192,000 number you have listed, but the Greenville DMA which includes Washington and New Bern has 307,610 tv households and the total population for that area is around 370,000.

I am not using dma's. I'm using metro areas (see above). For ECU I used the Raleigh metro arena and the Greenville, nc metro area. The fact that the city name shows Greenville (meaning sc) is misleading. I only did not change it because people seeing the thread after the fact might be confused from the responses...

Btw you know I love all you guys. The numbers were never meant to distract any team. It was mainly meant as an "expansion" thread to discuss new adds, on top of pointing out the "market" situation. I don't believe markets are the end all be all, but they certainly have a place. And with the split, they are something that may have to be addressed...

(12-19-2012 03:00 PM)spc_ops Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:08 PM)NBPirate Wrote:  So Boise gets to use the entire state as their market?

actually, we have more fans outside the state of idaho so why not?

BSU has a weird deal, we own Idaho, eastern Oregon, parts of E Wash, N. Nevada and western Wyoming. To get a feel of how many fans the Broncos have nationwide remember we are ranked mid 30's in merch. sales nationally. BSU gear is everywhere including mid town NYC.
AMAZING. We do well in ratings when ever were on ESPN nationally.

(12-19-2012 01:19 PM)Pirate1 Wrote:  That Greenville/Spartanburg thing is the wrong Greenville. That be the SC one. ECU is Washington , New Bern, Greenville and Raleigh.
Everything east of I 95 is 3 million plus and that is PIRATE COUNTRY

It is fertile ground but we do not own it exclusively Lots of NSCU fans reside in SENC due to agriculture and we still have to contend with the Wallheels...who are EVERYDAMNWHERE. We have a ton of fans in NENC..but to say we own east of 195 would be a fabrication.

(12-19-2012 01:07 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  I put these numbers together a few weeks ago before the C7/Big East split, when we were discussing market sizes of teams, their conferences, and how big their footprints are. I compiled a list of all 6 major conferences, and their footprints by combining the “markets” of each school (some schools market’s were entire states, some were metro areas, some were combinations. Here is the initial rank of each conference, and the data used to compile it.

Code:

Pop    Conference    Population    Number of     Population    Per Team    Curr't Natl
Rank    Name    Footprint    Teams    Per Team    Rank    Media K
1    Big Ten    93,024,131    14    6644580.786    1    3
2    SEC    91,304,127    14    6521723.357    2    2
3    Big East    71,046,352    20    3552317.6    6    6
4    ACC    67,806,747    15    4520449.8    4    5
5    Pac 12    62,810,305    12    5234192.083    3    1
6    Big XII    37,718,302    10    3771830.2    5    4

Note that I used population numbers from Wikipedia (may not be the best source, but since all data is from there, it will at least be consistant) to gather state populations, Primary Statistical area numbers (metro areas), and incorporated city numbers (necessary for a few cities). I did not use DMA's or television market numbers because they only list TV households, and it was too hard to find consistant numbers from one source to another for state household numbers, and as such this was an easier comparison to compile. Plus some areas simply do not have that information available (only top 50-100 markets acan be asily found). So here is the raw data:

Code:

Conference    Team(s)    Market    population    
ACC    Boston College    Boston (Manchester)    4,591,112    
ACC    Clemson    South Carolina    4,679,230    
ACC    Gerogia Tech    Atlanta    5,359,205    
ACC    Lousiville    Louisville    1,294,849    
ACC    Miami, FSU    Florida    19,057,542    
ACC    NC, NCSt, WF, Duke    North Carolina    9,656,401    
ACC    Notre Dame    Chicago    9,504,753    
ACC    Pittsburgh    Pittsburgh    2,359,746    
ACC    Syracuse    Albany - Schenectady - Troy    871,478    
ACC    Syracuse    Rochester, NY    1,055,278    
ACC    Syracuse    Syracuse    662,553    
ACC    Virginia, VT    Virginia    8,096,604    
ACC    Virginia, VT    Washington, DC*    617,996    City limits only
Total            67,806,747    
Big East    Boise St    Idaho    1,584,985    
Big East    Central Florida    Orlando-Daytona Beach    2,171,360    
Big East    Cincinnati    Cincinnati    2,138,038    
Big East    Cincinnati    Dayton    498,270    
Big East    Connecticut    Connecticut    3,580,709    
Big East    DePaul    Chicago    9,504,753    
Big East    ECU    Greenville-Spartanville-Asheville    192,690    
Big East    ECU    Raleigh    1,163,515    
Big East    Georgetown    Washington, DC    2,359,160    
Big East    Houston    Houston    6,086,538    
Big East    Marquette    Milwaukee    1,562,216    
Big East    Memphis    Memphis    1,325,605    
Big East    Navy    Baltimore    2,729,110    
Big East    Providence    Rhode Island    1,051,302    
Big East    San Diego St    San Diego    3,140,069    
Big East    SMU    Dallas-Ft. Worth    6,526,548    
Big East    South Florida    Tampa - St. Petersburg    2,824,724    
Big East    St John's, Seton Hall    New York    19,015,900    
Big East    Temple, Villanova    Philadelphia    2,949,310    
Big East    Tulane    New Orleans    641,550    
            71,046,352    
Big Ten    Illinois, Northwestern    Illinois    12,869,257    
Big Ten    Indiana, Purdue    Indiana    6,516,922    
Big Ten    Iowa    Iowa    3,062,309    
Big Ten    Maryland    Maryland    5,828,289    
Big Ten    Maryland    Washington, DC*    617,996    City limits only
Big Ten    Michigan, Mich St    Michigan    9,876,187    
Big Ten    Minnesota    Minnesota    5,344,861    
Big Ten    Nebraska    Nebraska    1,842,641    
Big Ten    Ohio St    Ohio    11,544,951    
Big Ten    Penn St    Pennsylvania    12,742,886    
Big Ten    Rutgers    New Jersey    8,821,155    
Big Ten    Rutgers    New York, NY    8,244,910    City limits only
Big Ten    Wisconsin    Wisconsin    5,711,767    
Total            93,024,131    
Big XII    Iowa State    Iowa    3,062,309    
Big XII    Kansas    Kansas City*    463,202    City limits only
Big XII    Kansas, K State    Kansas    2,871,238    
Big XII    Oklahoma, Ok St    Oklahoma    3,791,508    
Big XII    Texas, TTU, TCU, Bay    Texas    25,674,681    
Big XII    West Virginia    West Virginia    1,855,364    
Total            37,718,302    
Pac 12    Arizona, Arizona St    Arizona    6,482,505    
Pac 12    Cal, Stan, USC, UCLA    California    37,691,912    
Pac 12    Colorado    Colorado    5,116,769    
Pac 12    Oregon, Oregon St    Oregon    3,871,859    
Pac 12    Utah    Utah    2,817,222    
Pac 12    Washington, Wash St    Washington    6,830,038    
Total            62,810,305    
SEC    Alabama, Auburn    Alabama    4,802,740    
SEC    Arkansas    Arkansas    2,937,979    
SEC    Florida    Florida    19,057,542    
SEC    Georgia    Georgia    9,815,210    
SEC    Kentucky    Kentucky    4,369,356    
SEC    Louisiana State    Louisiana    4,574,836    
SEC    Mississippi State, Ole Miss    Mississippi    2,978,512    
SEC    Missouri    Missouri    6,010,688    
SEC    South Carolina    South Carolina    4,679,230    
SEC    Tennessee, Vandy    Tennessee    6,403,353    
SEC    Texas A&M    Texas    25,674,681    
Total            91,304,127

Now, some of you have conversed with me before, and others have not, so a small bit of background. I wanted to make clear one stance I have generally had: markets are overrated IMO, especially if you are talking about the Big East, which had more markets that it knew what to do with. Personally I always thought the Big East would have done better by consolidating markets and trying to build up the footprints we were already in, and develop them more fully (for example UCF, Temple, and SMU were good choices BECAUSE we had USF, Nova, and TCU, not despite them). Anyway, that was one man’s opinion. However that was then, this is now. With the split looming, these dynamics have changed. As the leagues are currently complied, this is what the numbers now look like now:

New Data

Code:

Conference    Team(s)    Market    population
Big East    Boise St    Idaho    1,584,985
Big East    Central Florida    Orlando-Daytona Beach    2,171,360
Big East    Cincinnati    Cincinnati    2,138,038
Big East    Cincinnati    Dayton    498,270
Big East    Connecticut    Connecticut    3,580,709
Big East    ECU    Greenville-Spartanville-Asheville    192,690
Big East    ECU    Raleigh    1,163,515
Big East    Houston    Houston    6,086,538
Big East    Memphis    Memphis    1,325,605
Big East    Navy    Baltimore    2,729,110
Big East    San Diego St    San Diego    3,140,069
Big East    SMU    Dallas-Ft. Worth    6,526,548
Big East    South Florida    Tampa - St. Petersburg    2,824,724
Big East    Temple    Philadelphia    2,949,310
Big East    Tulane    New Orleans    641,550
Total    ____    Big East    37,553,021

C7    DePaul    Chicago    9,504,753
C7    Georgetown    Washington, DC    2,359,160
C7    Marquette    Milwaukee    1,562,216
C7    Providence    Rhode Island    1,051,302
C7    St John's, Seton Hall    New York    19,015,900
C7    Villanova    Philadelphia    2,949,310
Total    ____    C7    36,442,641

This puts the new conferences as technically numbers 6 and 7 in population, in a virtual tie for fifth place with the Big XII (however the Big XII has a better grip on its population base). As it stands right now, both leagues have lost their two primary assets: large markets footprint and a deep marquee basketball league. To be clear both leagues retain some large markets, and some good basketball teams, but both were clearly more marketbale together ( I get why the split happened, but this is a somewhat irrefutable fact). This is also why the two sides of the league always stayed together and never looked to split until now.

Anyway, purely in terms of markets, these are the teams that appear to be disccussed as potential candidates for expansion. Keep in mind, while you make look at some of these teams and question their ability to "deliver" a market, with the exception of UConn, every team currently in the Big East (and this includes the departing teams) has questions about whether they can deliver a market except for probably UConn.

And the nominees are:

Code:

Air Force    Colorado Springs    645,613
Air Force*    Denver    3,157,520
Butler    Indianapolis    2,103,574
BYU    Utah    2,817,222
Charlotte    Charlotte    2,442,564
Creighton    Omaha, NE    913,883
Dayton    Dayton    498,270
Fresno St    Fresno    1,095,829
Gonzaga    Spokane    473,761
Hawaii    Hawaii    1,374,810
Massachussets*    Massachussets    6,587,536
Nevada    Nevada    2,723,322
New Mexico    New Mexico    2,082,224
New Mexico St    New Mexico    2,082,224
Northern Illinois*    Chicago    9,504,753
Saint Louis    St. Louis    2,882,932
Southern Miss    Hattiesburg, MS    51,993
UNLV    Las Vegas`    2,103,326
Xavier    Cincinnati    2,138,038

See any teams you think I should add to the candidate pool and let me know. and I'll add Questions about how I came up with the data let me know. Want me to recompile the numbers with a sample conference, let me know.

Otherwise, Discuss?

New Orleans greater metro is 1.2 million

(12-19-2012 06:23 PM)KnightLight Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 06:02 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  The point of this thread was to provide a snapshot of what the league has to sell as a footprint.

Well...sorry, it was an epic fail.

(Still trying to figure out where the town of Spartanville is located).

You mean like the epic fail that is UCF Athletic Department ? You know if you don't like what you are reading you can go to another thread. It's posters like you that have made the Big East board suck so much. I sure hope for the sake of Cincinnati , South Florida & U Conn fans that their school finds A nice new conference to call home. None of them deserve all the crap that some of the new school's posters have brought here.

(12-19-2012 08:20 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 08:07 PM)ecumbh1999 Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:53 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(12-19-2012 01:19 PM)Pirate1 Wrote:  That Greenville/Spartanburg thing is the wrong Greenville. That be the SC one. ECU is Washington , New Bern, Greenville and Raleigh.
Everything east of I 95 is 3 million plus and that is PIRATE COUNTRY

No it's not, at least not the number. It has to do with when I initially input the info I was using DMA's (I did have the wrong one then), and when I realized my numbers were distorted, DMA's had household numbers, while other datapools had total population, so I ad to change my data to use metro areas. I updated it to include the correct Greenville, but just I just forgot to change the label. Alos Greenville, SC , is actually larger, so that would not "help."

Then you need to change that to metro area populations and take out Washington and New Bern. The Greenville metro area is Pitt County the 192,000 number you have listed, but the Greenville DMA which includes Washington and New Bern has 307,610 tv households and the total population for that area is around 370,000.

I am not using dma's. I'm using metro areas (see above). For ECU I used the Raleigh metro arena and the Greenville, nc metro area. The fact that the city name shows Greenville (meaning sc) is misleading. I only did not change it because people seeing the thread after the fact might be confused from the responses...

Metro does not equal TV's. some area are poorer than others and don't have many TVs. But if you are doing that then look at the population from Modesto to Bakersfield for Fresno.

(12-20-2012 11:04 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  Metro does not equal TV's. some area are poorer than others and don't have many TVs. But if you are doing that then look at the population from Modesto to Bakersfield for Fresno.

I understand that metro does not equal TV. But TV area also does not equal TV reach. Especially in a world where 85% of housholds have cable, rendering the "TV market" matrix pretty useless: a better matrix would be evaluating cable providers that distribute said programming. But that info is not readily available. Also as expalined above, using TV markets makes for some pure logistical nightmares in collecting the data, that for my puposes was entirely unnecessary. Plus, and more importanly, when you use the same data collection methods across the board, it evens out (whatver advantages or disadvantages you see, generally across the board). Also to note, doing it this way actually enhances the Big East value, as if I used TV markets USF, UCF, SD St, Boise, UConn, Cincy, and SMU would all see their numbers go down, and the PAC 12, ACC, and Big XII would see their numbers go up, do to how TV markets are drawn up.