(12-03-2012 02:33 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: Provide mechanisms for some non-evangelical staff in non-theological employment. I doubt many athiests would be on your staff, but for the 5 percent that might be willing to teach there, would provide some addl basis for intellectual discourse.
What is funny about this is that you say that if a Christian school allows an athiest to teach then that provided addl basis for intellectual discourse. How many times have we seen a evangelical professor get 'dismissed' from teaching at public schools? There are plenty of examples of that happening especially to christian science teachers. Why don't the evangelical professors add addl basis for intellectual discourse to the public school? Oh because that would be forcing religion onto others? But you want it to be okay for an atheist to 'force his viewpoint on christian students'... makes total sense.
Pehaps if your university wasn't such an insulated environment you guys wouldn't be mystified as to why what Liberty does is so offensive to others.
Uh, banning the teaching of discredited science (e.g., intelligent design and or creationism) is not discrimination, but simply adherence to accepted science methodologies. If you'd like to equate a University not hiring someone who teaches unsound science in a science class with a University not hiring someone because of who he/she sleeps with on their private time, you are free to do so, but you will likely not sway anyone with such arguments, and will simply reinforce the argument that Liberty is unfit due to its' academic faults. BTW, I thought Liberty had given up on that stuff (intelligent design/creationsim) - I know even Pat Robertson (!) has.
If a University fired someone for believing in intelligent design (but adhering to the teaching requirements of the school - even if it mandated evolution only) I'd say that was wrong. Just as a University fired someone for sleeping with their same sex partner off campus while teaching History at Liberty would be wrong.
And for the record, the bigot who got canned from Gualladet shouldn't have been fired, unless she was signing it as a member of the University community. I think she should have been counteracted by the University and scrutinized to ensure she was serving the needs of the LGBT community there (as was part of her job), but being fired for simply being a jerk - no. I think there was a similar case at either Toledo or Bowling Green. But that pales in comparison to the hundreds of schools where Gays cannot be employed (and Liberty has a defacto ban - regardless of how they spin it).
You are equating apples and oranges here. If a school says, you will have to teach evolution and are banned from teaching or researching intelligent design/creationsim, they have a right to do so and its not discrimination. If a school wants to order its Science teachers to simply read Genesis instead of teaching evolution, that's not necessary discrimination, either (although it would be perfectly fair for graduate schools, employers, and the broader academic community to judge graduates of such a school by the quality of the education received). If a school says to a Math teacher, you cannot live with your partner off campus or support any Gay rights measures as a private citizen, that is much worse.
(12-03-2012 01:53 PM)MWC Tex Wrote: Sorry, I forgot about WKU still being in the Sunbelt. All the rumors swirling around. So the SB has a core of 5 FBS schools which will be OK for FCS move ups. I had previously thought the SB only have 4 FBS schools left.
Granted the WAC received a waiver and so the SB would probably get one also.
It appears you're not the only one who has forgotten that WKU is still a SBC school and officially it will be for quite some time. Everything said about WKU leaving were rumors...unsubstantiated rumors btw.
There may be merit to the rumors but I'm still very doubtful. Then again, I was extremely doubtful WKU would be Bowling this year so I guess I could be wrong again.
Yes, there's a core of 6 schools in the SBC (WKU, USA, ArkSt, UL, ULM, Troy). With the addition of GaSt and TxSt in 2013, that makes 8.
I believe USA is still in transition so they don't count yet?
As of our last game on Saturday, we are full FBS. I don't know when the date it becomes official is though.
Oh. Well OK. Man with the changes going on my timeline got skewed who when in where.
Congrats on the transition, so I then Tx St will be full FBS at end of next year and Georgia St. will have 2 years as they are not in the Sunbelt till next year correct?
I believe we are now full FBS as well. UTSA still has a year behind us.
Tom, a few things, quoting two of your previous posts -
"""1) Remove the prohibition on Gay behavior and simply say its 'discouraged'. You're not going to get a bunch of us working there.........In other words, unless you are a lifelong celebate, (SIC) you cannot be a student at Liberty. And you cannot even say "I support Gay rights" without getting tossed per your Universities website. Its not reasonable to expect Gay people to be celebate. Liberty appears to have a defacto ban on Gay students. Perhaps you can contact Mat Staver and ask him about how this policy would interpreted for a Gay student in a relationship. Or one that supports marriage equality."""
The official "Liberty Way" Code of Conduct forbids sexual relations of any kind before marriage, regardless of the sexual orientation of the couple...IE...not just gay people. Think BYU honor code...remember a few years back the star basketball player didn't play in the NCAA Tourney because he had sex with his girlfriend? Same type of deal. There is no ban on gay students here at Liberty. Look Tom, people voted for Obama here at Liberty. Quite a few of them. They in a sense said "I support gay marriage." Were they removed from school? I think you would have heard about it if so.
Having said the above, we have 13,000 students here....do you really think we kick kids out of school for pre-marital sexual relations or for supporting gay marriage? We'd be kicking out half the school, Tom, gay, straight, or otherwise! Here is a link to Liberty's undergraduate admissions requirements - http://www.libertyu.com/index.cfm?PID=21901 Nothing about faith, sexual orientation, or political affiliation. Again it's just logical that a gay atheist would prefer life at Berkeley over Liberty. Nothing wrong with that.
"""3) Provide mechanisms for some non-evangelical staff in non-theological employment. I doubt many athiests would be on your staff, but for the 5 percent that might be willing to teach there, would provide some addl basis for intellectual discourse. Liberty's student body is largely self selected. I doubt it would turn LU into Berkeley or anything...........How many Muslim professors does Liberty have? Can Muslims participate in Liberty atheltics. This isn't just about discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation but also on the basis of religion......"""
Human Resources home-page - http://www.liberty.edu/administration/hu...fm?PID=402 Of note - "We incorporate Christ into everything we do and encourage you to do the same." Note we do not force you to do the same. Again as per the students, if you're a gay, atheist professor, would you be more comfortable teaching at Berkeley or Liberty? If you're a Muslim student you can most certainly participate in athletics at Liberty...but again, why would you? Tom, Muslim students are not denied admission to Liberty, they simply don't apply in the first place!
""""5) Try and lead by example instead of by fear. Kicking the College Democrats (who were initially tossed alone off of campus) was incredibly stupid. Again, your campus is gonna be incredibly conservative anyway. There's no need to spike the ball.""""
I and the majority of us agree with you here...we handled this situation poorly and should have revoked every political club's official status together, the first time, instead of after the fact. Mistake on our part, and we will have to eat that one.
""""2) Remove the prohibition on supporting Gay rights from the policy. The University can prohibit statements made associated with the University and oppose gay rights as an institution.""""
Students here are free to support what they want. Again as I have stated several times, there are many Libertarians here that differ greatly from mainstream Republicans. They're smart enough to see through the smokescreen. Liberty as an institution will certainly disagree with the idea of gay marriage as it does not fall in line with the Biblical definition of marriage and as a Christian institution we will continue to teach the Biblical definition and will not apologize for it. We'll simply agree to disagree on this one, and I see no problem with that.
"""4) Get rid of Matt Barber. He's toxic. And an embarrasment to the University. Any University. Also, separate Liberty Counsel from the University. Stop hiring professors from there, move it out of town and separate the endowments. And change the name of it while you're at it. He's doing as much damage today to LU as Jerry Falwell, Sr did with the Tinky-Winky thing."""
The only people who know anything about Matt Barber are the daily subscribers to Right Wing Watch or some other internet tabloid....Ask any random student here and they couldn't tell you a thing about Matt Barber. Liberty Counsel is an island, and the majority of the US population has never heard of the organization.
To Pounce FTW,
Great post. It (Liberty's religion) certainly does matter. We realize it matters, and I am not apposed to discussing it ad nauseum. What are the two things you never talk about at a dinner party? Religion and politics. It just so happens that we feel strongly about two subjects that are incredibly polarizing to the American people. Look no further than this board for an example. For this reason in particular I have been very vocal, both in the past and this time around, with trying to set the record straight about Liberty. My hope is to enlighten this board if you will, one post at a time.
There is a misconception by many here that Liberty is the same place it was back in the 1980's when Jerry Falwell Sr. formed the moral majority and students were kicked out for having a beer and the whole bit. Unfortunately people still see Liberty that way and for whatever reason they cannot move "Forward" and see Liberty in a different light. Are the majority of our students conservative? You bet. Are the overwhelming majority of our students bible believing, heterosexual Christians? Right again. But do we expel students for voting Democrat? For not falling in line with young earth creationism? For being gay, lesbian, or otherwise? Tom in Lazybrook would have you believe that there is a mob that patrols campus looking for gays, and liberals, pitchforks in hand, when nothing could be further from the truth.
Let me give you one example. I am happen to believe that God created the heavens and the earth. Intelligent design if you will. I also happen to believe that the earth was created some 4.6 billion years ago. I can see things like North/South America fitting into Africa/Europe some 300 million years ago (AKA Pangea) and slowly separating and drifting at half an inch per year since then. Volcanoes and Earthquakes tell me that continental drift is real, and they certainly had to be drifting for more than 6,000 years to get to where they are today. The Himalayas, caused by the Indian plate colliding with the Asian plate, tell me that it took much longer than 6,000 years to form the range. So I believe that God created the earth. I believe he did it 4.6 billion years ago. My views are widespread here at Liberty, and I can tell you that the majority of my friends and classmates do not believe in young earth creationism. Created yes, but not anytime in the last 6,000 years. Don't we have cave paintings in France older than that?
Now having said that, if someone found out my identity, I would not be kicked out of school. I would not be scolded, or slapped on the wrist. There are all sorts of varying degrees of belief here, and you'll find Libertarian, Democrat, and Republican bumper sticks throughout the Liberty parking lots. Just one small example of many.
Things change, schools evolve. While there are some things here at Liberty that will never change (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), there are many over the years that have. In the 1970's for example, women had to wear full length skirts to class and men with shirt, coat, and tie -
Fast forward to today and men and women are wearing jeans to class and the whole bit. Our women's volleyball team would have never been allowed to wear the shorts back in the 1970's....today obviously it is just what they wear -
Do these kids look like church mice? People are "normal" here I an assure you, the majority simply believe in God, that's all.
You all might even be surprised to know that Liberty has cheerleaders, and they wear a normal cheerleading uniform -
Heck, we even have a Liberty grad cheering for the Washington Redskins if you can believe that -
So you remember Denver...Well we have a hockey team too, 5 of them to be exact, although unlike Denver none of them are NCAA Division I programs, all are club sports. But we do have an ice hockey rink on campus (how many Christian schools have an ice hockey rink on campus????) and we do have big-time club hockey. I know you'll never ever believe this...but yes, we fight at our hockey games, and no one seems to mind as hey, you know, it's just part of the game. Here is a video of a fight with Oklahoma -
So again perhaps the misconceptions can be put to rest. We love God, and we're not ashamed of our faith, but we do not discriminate, and I would encourage you all to keep an open mind and not believe every word that Tom in Lazybrook and others have said. I would encourage everyone to come to campus and see for themselves, you will be welcomed here regardless of your sexual orientation or political lean.
If you ban Gay people from marrying and you then say no sex outside of marriage, then it is a defacto ban on 99.99999 percent of Gay men and women, who like straight men and women are not lifelong celebates. For all practical purposes, Liberty has a ban on Gay students. And Gay persons working at the University as well. My guess is that they don't strictly enforce it against students, but its really a way to ban Gays from employment at the school.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2012 08:04 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
(12-03-2012 08:26 PM)geauxcajuns Wrote: Ok, can we just stop with all of the Liberty talk? Most schools don't want you in the Sun Belt because you are a private school. Period, end of story. I for one don't give a rats a$$ what kind of dribble comes out of the faculty or students at Liberty, y'all are entitled you your own views. But please stop begging to get an invite.
Actually I don't think anyone has begged, what good would that do, zilch. Also as of yet no one knows what the schools are thinking, only the fans
(12-03-2012 07:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: If you ban Gay people from marrying and you then say no sex outside of marriage, then it is a defacto ban on 99.99999 percent of Gay men and women, who like straight men and women are not lifelong celebates. For all practical purposes, Liberty has a ban on Gay students. And Gay persons working at the University as well. My guess is that they don't strictly enforce it against students, but its really a way to ban Gays from employment at the school.
Tom, with all due respect dude some people are not going to agree with your modern definition of marriage. Are they all to be tared and feathered by your rational as bigoted homophobes? This is not a forum to sell your beliefs or for your personal crusade to debate gay rights anymore then it is mine to lecture others on the evils of abortion. Most of us come here to discuss sports, to have fun and get away from the daily debates that took place over the past election cycle. If you want to continue this then I'm going to ask the Mods on this board to shut this thread down or we can turn this whole thread into a debate on others moral opinions.
Personally I'm not supportive of Liberty to the Sun Belt but it has little to do with anyone's personal views on marriage or any other topic other then sports.
(12-03-2012 07:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: If you ban Gay people from marrying and you then say no sex outside of marriage, then it is a defacto ban on 99.99999 percent of Gay men and women, who like straight men and women are not lifelong celebates. For all practical purposes, Liberty has a ban on Gay students. And Gay persons working at the University as well. My guess is that they don't strictly enforce it against students, but its really a way to ban Gays from employment at the school.
Tom, with all due respect dude some people are not going to agree with your modern definition of marriage. Are they all to be tared and feathered by your rational as bigoted homophobes? This is not a forum to sell your beliefs or for your personal crusade to debate gay rights anymore then it is mine to lecture others on the evils of abortion. Most of us come here to discuss sports, to have fun and get away from the daily debates that took place over the past election cycle. If you want to continue this then I'm going to ask the Mods on this board to shut this thread down or we can turn this whole thread into a debate on others moral opinions.
Personally I'm not supportive of Liberty to the Sun Belt but it has little to do with anyone's personal views on marriage or any other topic other then sports.
Its not about marriage. Its about discrimination. A school that doesn't allow Gay people (and they effectively don't) to participate as students, faculty, or athletes (or Muslims, or Athiests, or Hindus, etc.) isn't fit for inclusion in the Belt IMHO.
I'm fine with shutting the thread down. But every time Liberty comes in here to try and sell their school, I"m going to weigh in. Because a school that doesn't take the most qualified isn't fit for inclusion in the Sun Belt.
There are many that disagree with marriage equality. But I think that you'll find that my complaints about Liberty are largely not about marriage equality. The point that you see was me showing how Liberty effectively bans Gay persons from employment at the school as a result of a COMBINATION of their opposition to Gay marriage AND their prohibition on cohabitation/sex outside of marriage. If they didn't ban Gay activity outside of marriage, then their opposition to gay marriage wouldn't be as bad.
The employment and admissions discrimination is the main issue here. The toxic statements by their most prominent professors don't help their case either.
I personally believe that opposition to marriage equality can come from three origins. 1) Ignorance (not as an insult) in that the person doesn't understand the issue fully because they haven't considered all sides, 2) Animosity or hatred of Gay persons, or 3) A desire to implement one's religious laws as the laws for everyone, including those that don't share your religious beliefs. So no, not everyone opposed to marriage equality is a bigot. Look, its the Sun Belt, I don't expect people to agree with me on issues of equality (we as Southerners aren't very good at that), but I will not allow blatent discrimination to infect the conference I've supported for over 40 years without calling them out on it.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2012 10:51 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
(12-03-2012 07:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: If you ban Gay people from marrying and you then say no sex outside of marriage, then it is a defacto ban on 99.99999 percent of Gay men and women, who like straight men and women are not lifelong celebates. For all practical purposes, Liberty has a ban on Gay students. And Gay persons working at the University as well. My guess is that they don't strictly enforce it against students, but its really a way to ban Gays from employment at the school.
Tom, with all due respect dude some people are not going to agree with your modern definition of marriage. Are they all to be tared and feathered by your rational as bigoted homophobes? This is not a forum to sell your beliefs or for your personal crusade to debate gay rights anymore then it is mine to lecture others on the evils of abortion. Most of us come here to discuss sports, to have fun and get away from the daily debates that took place over the past election cycle. If you want to continue this then I'm going to ask the Mods on this board to shut this thread down or we can turn this whole thread into a debate on others moral opinions.
Personally I'm not supportive of Liberty to the Sun Belt but it has little to do with anyone's personal views on marriage or any other topic other then sports.
Its not about marriage. Its about discrimination. A school that doesn't allow Gay people (and they effectively don't) to participate as students, faculty, or athletes (or Muslims, or Athiests, or Hindus, etc.) isn't fit for inclusion in the Belt IMHO.
I'm fine with shutting the thread down. But every time Liberty comes in here to try and sell their school, I"m going to weigh in. Because a school that doesn't take the most qualified isn't fit for inclusion in the Sun Belt.
There are many that disagree with marriage equality. But I think that you'll find that my complaints about Liberty are largely not about marriage equality. The point that you see was me showing how Liberty effectively bans Gay persons from employment at the school as a result of a combination of their opposition to Gay marriage AND their prohibition on cohabitation/sex outside of marriage. If they didn't ban Gay activity outside of marriage, then their opposition to gay marriage wouldn't be as bad.
The employment and admissions discrimination is the issue here.
What you would call marriage equality, others would call an attack on traditional and biblical beliefs. And that is just my point, again this is not a folder for your personal crusade or personal beliefs. There is another folder available for none sports subjects or your personal hatred of Liberty University. I think they are some here that would agree with your assessment of Liberty and others that would not on this forum. But for those that do not, they are not here on a personal crusade to shove their beliefs down your throat. You have made your point on more than one post and at some point it goes beyond debate and becomes prophesying.
If you want to start it again, then do so in the other folder and not this folder where there are some here that disagree with your beliefs and have a right to come here and not have to feel harassed or lectured too by others. I'm not here to change your opinions or lecture you on my values and I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2012 11:07 PM by CrazyCajun.)
all I want is to discuss Liberty's desire to move up to FBS in an Athletics Conference and compete in Athletics contests. Not one time has any Liberty person ever tried to sway Tom or any one else. Yet he continues to insist that Liberty must change or Get out. I totally respect Tom's freedom to choose how he lives and what he believes. I make my choices and he makes his. I totally know what Tom, Paul, and others believe about LU, and I've heard it 22 times. They aren't going to change my mind and I don't want to change theirs.
However, at Liberty, we do have a great Redshirt Freshman WB who was in the running for the Jerry Rice award and a ton of other great kids. I'd love to discuss these and other topics. How about Coach Gill? Anything.
(12-03-2012 11:05 PM)FORBIDDEN Wrote: Oh wow how some of u may b surprised beyond belief is all im gonna say. You mayhv to worry about us you may not but trust it is a possibility, lol
(12-03-2012 07:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: If you ban Gay people from marrying and you then say no sex outside of marriage, then it is a defacto ban on 99.99999 percent of Gay men and women, who like straight men and women are not lifelong celebates. For all practical purposes, Liberty has a ban on Gay students. And Gay persons working at the University as well. My guess is that they don't strictly enforce it against students, but its really a way to ban Gays from employment at the school.
Tom, with all due respect dude some people are not going to agree with your modern definition of marriage. Are they all to be tared and feathered by your rational as bigoted homophobes? This is not a forum to sell your beliefs or for your personal crusade to debate gay rights anymore then it is mine to lecture others on the evils of abortion. Most of us come here to discuss sports, to have fun and get away from the daily debates that took place over the past election cycle. If you want to continue this then I'm going to ask the Mods on this board to shut this thread down or we can turn this whole thread into a debate on others moral opinions.
Personally I'm not supportive of Liberty to the Sun Belt but it has little to do with anyone's personal views on marriage or any other topic other then sports.
Its not about marriage. Its about discrimination. A school that doesn't allow Gay people (and they effectively don't) to participate as students, faculty, or athletes (or Muslims, or Athiests, or Hindus, etc.) isn't fit for inclusion in the Belt IMHO.
I'm fine with shutting the thread down. But every time Liberty comes in here to try and sell their school, I"m going to weigh in. Because a school that doesn't take the most qualified isn't fit for inclusion in the Sun Belt.
There are many that disagree with marriage equality. But I think that you'll find that my complaints about Liberty are largely not about marriage equality. The point that you see was me showing how Liberty effectively bans Gay persons from employment at the school as a result of a combination of their opposition to Gay marriage AND their prohibition on cohabitation/sex outside of marriage. If they didn't ban Gay activity outside of marriage, then their opposition to gay marriage wouldn't be as bad.
The employment and admissions discrimination is the issue here.
What you would call marriage equality, others would call an attack on traditional and biblical beliefs. And that is just my point, again this is not a folder for your personal crusade or personal beliefs. There is another folder available for none sports subjects or your personal hatred of Liberty University. I think they are some here that would agree with your assessment of Liberty and others that would not on this forum. But for those that do not, they are not here on a personal crusade to shove their beliefs down your throat. You have made your point on more than one post and at some point it goes beyond debate and becomes prophesying.
If you want to start it again, then do so in the other folder and not this folder where there are some here that disagree with your beliefs and have a right to come here and not have to feel harassed or lectured too by others. I'm not here to change your opinions or lecture you on my values and I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.
Again, I will not allow schools that discriminate in employment or athletic participation to argue for inclusion in the conference I've called home for 40 years without calling them out on it. I find the fact that Liberty is NOT interested in recruiting the best talent to compete in athletics and academics to be completely relevant towards their fitness for SBC affiliation.
Liberty can and does discriminate on the basis on sexual orientation and religion. None of the existing SBC schools do.
There are many reasons why Liberty isn't a fit for the Sun Belt. Some of them are related to their utter lack of complimentary market with the Sun Belt, their lack of FCS success, etc. However, the fact that they elect to discriminate is one of the most relevant reasons why they are not a fit. Again, every time I see Liberty being pushed or supported here, I'm going to bring up the fact that they don't want the best talent possible because they discriminate. Would you want a school that fired people for attending a Baptist Church or voting for Republicans to be in the Belt? How are Liberty's actions any different?
(This post was last modified: 12-03-2012 11:44 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
(12-03-2012 11:15 PM)knucklehead Wrote: all I want is to discuss Liberty's desire to move up to FBS in an Athletics Conference and compete in Athletics contests. Not one time has any Liberty person ever tried to sway Tom or any one else. Yet he continues to insist that Liberty must change or Get out. I totally respect Tom's freedom to choose how he lives and what he believes. I make my choices and he makes his. I totally know what Tom, Paul, and others believe about LU, and I've heard it 22 times. They aren't going to change my mind and I don't want to change theirs.
However, at Liberty, we do have a great Redshirt Freshman WB who was in the running for the Jerry Rice award and a ton of other great kids. I'd love to discuss these and other topics. How about Coach Gill? Anything.
There are limited spaces available for FBS programs. I'd rather have those spaces have employment and participation opportuities open to Gays and persons that aren't evangelical. And don't give me that stupid arguement that if a Gay man doesn't support Gay rights and lives a lonely life without companiionship, that they can work at Liberty. Its a ridiculous assertion. You guys discriminate. Don't ask me to stand by while you take up limited space in FBS to close off opportunities for Gays and non-evangelicals.
As far as Coach Gill goes, I don't know why you guys hired him after the Kansas fiasco.
(12-03-2012 07:56 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote: If you ban Gay people from marrying and you then say no sex outside of marriage, then it is a defacto ban on 99.99999 percent of Gay men and women, who like straight men and women are not lifelong celebates. For all practical purposes, Liberty has a ban on Gay students. And Gay persons working at the University as well. My guess is that they don't strictly enforce it against students, but its really a way to ban Gays from employment at the school.
Tom, with all due respect dude some people are not going to agree with your modern definition of marriage. Are they all to be tared and feathered by your rational as bigoted homophobes? This is not a forum to sell your beliefs or for your personal crusade to debate gay rights anymore then it is mine to lecture others on the evils of abortion. Most of us come here to discuss sports, to have fun and get away from the daily debates that took place over the past election cycle. If you want to continue this then I'm going to ask the Mods on this board to shut this thread down or we can turn this whole thread into a debate on others moral opinions.
Personally I'm not supportive of Liberty to the Sun Belt but it has little to do with anyone's personal views on marriage or any other topic other then sports.
Its not about marriage. Its about discrimination. A school that doesn't allow Gay people (and they effectively don't) to participate as students, faculty, or athletes (or Muslims, or Athiests, or Hindus, etc.) isn't fit for inclusion in the Belt IMHO.
I'm fine with shutting the thread down. But every time Liberty comes in here to try and sell their school, I"m going to weigh in. Because a school that doesn't take the most qualified isn't fit for inclusion in the Sun Belt.
There are many that disagree with marriage equality. But I think that you'll find that my complaints about Liberty are largely not about marriage equality. The point that you see was me showing how Liberty effectively bans Gay persons from employment at the school as a result of a combination of their opposition to Gay marriage AND their prohibition on cohabitation/sex outside of marriage. If they didn't ban Gay activity outside of marriage, then their opposition to gay marriage wouldn't be as bad.
The employment and admissions discrimination is the issue here.
What you would call marriage equality, others would call an attack on traditional and biblical beliefs. And that is just my point, again this is not a folder for your personal crusade or personal beliefs. There is another folder available for none sports subjects or your personal hatred of Liberty University. I think they are some here that would agree with your assessment of Liberty and others that would not on this forum. But for those that do not, they are not here on a personal crusade to shove their beliefs down your throat. You have made your point on more than one post and at some point it goes beyond debate and becomes prophesying.
If you want to start it again, then do so in the other folder and not this folder where there are some here that disagree with your beliefs and have a right to come here and not have to feel harassed or lectured too by others. I'm not here to change your opinions or lecture you on my values and I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.
Again, I will not allow schools that discriminate in employment or athletic participation to argue for inclusion in the conference I've called home for 40 years without calling them out on it. I find the fact that Liberty is NOT interested in recruiting the best talent to compete in athletics and academics to be completely relevant towards their fitness for SBC affiliation.
Liberty can and does discriminate on the basis on sexual orientation and religion. None of the existing SBC schools do.
There are many reasons why Liberty isn't a fit for the Sun Belt. Some of them are related to their utter lack of complimentary market with the Sun Belt, their lack of FCS success, etc. However, the fact that they elect to discriminate is one of the most relevant reasons why they are not a fit. Again, every time I see Liberty being pushed or supported here, I'm going to bring up the fact that they don't want the best talent possible because they discriminate. Would you want a school that fired people for attending a Baptist Church or voting for Republicans to be in the Belt? How are Liberty's actions any different?
Again sir, I've asked for common courtesy and you don't seem to respect that request.
(12-03-2012 09:41 PM)CrazyCajun Wrote: Tom, with all due respect dude some people are not going to agree with your modern definition of marriage. Are they all to be tared and feathered by your rational as bigoted homophobes? This is not a forum to sell your beliefs or for your personal crusade to debate gay rights anymore then it is mine to lecture others on the evils of abortion. Most of us come here to discuss sports, to have fun and get away from the daily debates that took place over the past election cycle. If you want to continue this then I'm going to ask the Mods on this board to shut this thread down or we can turn this whole thread into a debate on others moral opinions.
Personally I'm not supportive of Liberty to the Sun Belt but it has little to do with anyone's personal views on marriage or any other topic other then sports.
Its not about marriage. Its about discrimination. A school that doesn't allow Gay people (and they effectively don't) to participate as students, faculty, or athletes (or Muslims, or Athiests, or Hindus, etc.) isn't fit for inclusion in the Belt IMHO.
I'm fine with shutting the thread down. But every time Liberty comes in here to try and sell their school, I"m going to weigh in. Because a school that doesn't take the most qualified isn't fit for inclusion in the Sun Belt.
There are many that disagree with marriage equality. But I think that you'll find that my complaints about Liberty are largely not about marriage equality. The point that you see was me showing how Liberty effectively bans Gay persons from employment at the school as a result of a combination of their opposition to Gay marriage AND their prohibition on cohabitation/sex outside of marriage. If they didn't ban Gay activity outside of marriage, then their opposition to gay marriage wouldn't be as bad.
The employment and admissions discrimination is the issue here.
What you would call marriage equality, others would call an attack on traditional and biblical beliefs. And that is just my point, again this is not a folder for your personal crusade or personal beliefs. There is another folder available for none sports subjects or your personal hatred of Liberty University. I think they are some here that would agree with your assessment of Liberty and others that would not on this forum. But for those that do not, they are not here on a personal crusade to shove their beliefs down your throat. You have made your point on more than one post and at some point it goes beyond debate and becomes prophesying.
If you want to start it again, then do so in the other folder and not this folder where there are some here that disagree with your beliefs and have a right to come here and not have to feel harassed or lectured too by others. I'm not here to change your opinions or lecture you on my values and I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.
Again, I will not allow schools that discriminate in employment or athletic participation to argue for inclusion in the conference I've called home for 40 years without calling them out on it. I find the fact that Liberty is NOT interested in recruiting the best talent to compete in athletics and academics to be completely relevant towards their fitness for SBC affiliation.
Liberty can and does discriminate on the basis on sexual orientation and religion. None of the existing SBC schools do.
There are many reasons why Liberty isn't a fit for the Sun Belt. Some of them are related to their utter lack of complimentary market with the Sun Belt, their lack of FCS success, etc. However, the fact that they elect to discriminate is one of the most relevant reasons why they are not a fit. Again, every time I see Liberty being pushed or supported here, I'm going to bring up the fact that they don't want the best talent possible because they discriminate. Would you want a school that fired people for attending a Baptist Church or voting for Republicans to be in the Belt? How are Liberty's actions any different?
Again sir, I've asked for common courtesy and you don't seem to respect that request.
If you define courtesy to sit back and let people promote employment discrimination and discrimination in athletic participation for a school that wants to join the Belt, I'm sorry by I"m going to have not comply with that. If you want to get the thread squashed, fine.
But anytime Liberty is brought up in here, the fact that they discriminate will be brought up.
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[split] FCS 4-pack
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