(12-11-2012 05:47 PM)Bearhawkeye Wrote:  Sounds like this deal might have legs. Also rumors of it turning into a 3 way with Arizona and even that Asdrubal Cabrera might be coming to the Reds too?

I'd be ok with that.

(12-11-2012 06:00 PM)Bearhawkeye Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 05:13 PM)ThinkBigPine Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 04:57 PM)Bearhawkeye Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 04:42 PM)ThinkBigPine Wrote:  Not sure I'd give up Gregorius, definitely give up Stubbs.

I'm intrigued, but my initial reaction is to pass on that deal although supposedly the Reds would also be getting another unnamed player.

I also really like Gregorius and I'm kinda a sucker for Stubbs' "I'm revamping my swing and plate approach" off-season. Even though I've never been 100% sold on Stubbs and I'm far from confident his changes will work, I'd still like to keep him as an option because he does add value if used properly. So I'd prefer to find a CF who bats LH to platoon with him (still love the idea of Ichiro).

One other thing: sounds like Choo's D in CF might be much worse than Stubbs' D per at least one report.

GABP is a hitter friendly park, and Stubbs hit .222, I'll take Choo any day over Stubbs, Choo kills it in GABP. There is value to every player if used properly I agree.

Along those lines, Choo looks a lot like a platoon guy to me - check out his splits last year:

.327/.403/.523/.926 v RHP
.199/.318/.286/.605 v LHP

As I said in the other post: a platoon of Stubbs and Choo? Then we might really have something.

Quote:I agree with you about Gregorius, I see a lot of upside in him, Indians might get a steal, but this moves helps our team now.

The only thing that I don't really like about this trade if it happens is Choo is a FA next year, Gregorius seems like a lot to give up for what could be a 1 year rental player.

Plus Choo is a Boras client...

Choo doesn't hit LHP nearly as well, but you can still play him. He's got a career .338 OBP against southpaws. I think he'd be average in CF. One thing that does help him is that he's got a rocket arm.

@Ken_Rosenthal
Three-team trade, per source, will look like this: Choo, Jason Donald to #Reds, Gregorius to #Diamondbacks, Stubbs, AZ pitcher to #Indians.

Donald struggled last year, but I think he's a solid utility guy.

(12-11-2012 07:17 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 04:58 PM)Bearhawkeye Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 04:28 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  DKnobler ‏@DKnobler
Reds deep in talks on deal to acquire Shin-soo Choo from Indians for Stubbs and Gregorius. http://cbsprt.co/UfMpzf

DKnobler ‏@DKnobler
Reds would use Choo in center field, and as leadoff hitter.

This would be a huge upgrade! I'm not sure who would be happier... Votto or Arroyo?

I don't get the Arroyo reference?

Choo is 8-14 with 4 HR and 3 2B in his career against Arroyo.

Got it - although he might change his tune every time someone hits a fly ball against him (if the trade happens).

(12-11-2012 08:01 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  @Ken_Rosenthal
Three-team trade, per source, will look like this: Choo, Jason Donald to #Reds, Gregorius to #Diamondbacks, Stubbs, AZ pitcher to #Indians.

Donald struggled last year, but I think he's a solid utility guy.

I'm good with this trade, I like that Gregorius is going to the Diamondbacks.

(12-11-2012 08:18 PM)ThinkBigPine Wrote:  

(12-11-2012 08:01 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  @Ken_Rosenthal
Three-team trade, per source, will look like this: Choo, Jason Donald to #Reds, Gregorius to #Diamondbacks, Stubbs, AZ pitcher to #Indians.

Donald struggled last year, but I think he's a solid utility guy.

I'm good with this trade, I like that Gregorius is going to the Diamondbacks.

Why, are you a DBack fan?

Baseball is a pitching and defense sport. We had both last year and we won 97 games.

Losing Stubbs in center will hurt the defense tremendously, especially if they put a not-so-good right fielder in center. He will give up more runs than he scores.

(12-11-2012 09:19 PM)Bearcat Otto Wrote:  Baseball is a pitching and defense sport. We had both last year and we won 97 games.

Losing Stubbs in center will hurt the defense tremendously, especially if they put a not-so-good right fielder in center. He will give up more runs than he scores.

No it won't. Stubbs has speed, but that doesn't always translate to being a great defender.

Another thing, the NL Central isn't exactly the NL West when it comes to ballparks.

(12-11-2012 09:19 PM)Bearcat Otto Wrote:  Baseball is a pitching and defense sport. We had both last year and we won 97 games.

Losing Stubbs in center will hurt the defense tremendously, especially if they put a not-so-good right fielder in center. He will give up more runs than he scores.

You can't go into the season with the same 2 guys batting at the top of the line up. Votto batted with nobody on way too many times last year. Reds have nobody that can hit at the top of the order. BP is better suited to the 2 hole. Cozart admittedly was not comfortalbe at the top. Yes Stubbs is better defensively but that is it. He is limited to a 7 or 8 hole hitter and this Reds team can not have that from their CF. Line up just got better which will produce more runs and less one run games than last season.

(12-11-2012 09:19 PM)Bearcat Otto Wrote:  Baseball is a pitching and defense sport. We had both last year and we won 97 games.

Losing Stubbs in center will hurt the defense tremendously, especially if they put a not-so-good right fielder in center. He will give up more runs than he scores.

I'll gladly take that bet. Since 2008 only 9 players have hit RHP better than Choo. He's going to tear it up in this park in a contract year. He's an above-average RF that'll likely be average in CF.

EDIT: I am really sorry to lose Didi.


Reds confirm three-team trade
12/11/12 at 9:18pm by jfay

The Reds have confirmed the three-team trade in which they acquired Shin-Soo Choo and Jason Donald:

Cincinnati Reds President of Baseball Operations and General Manager Walt Jocketty today announced acquisition of leadoff hitter and CF Shin-Soo Choo, IF Jason Donald and cash from the Cleveland Indians in exchange for CF Drew Stubbs and SS Didi Gregorius.

“It was very difficult giving up home-grown talent, but we think Choo can fill the missing parts in our lineup both offensively and defensively,” Jocketty said. “He is an exciting player, and we expect him to set the table for Phillips, Votto, Bruce, Ludwick and the rest of our run producers.”

Jocketty said of Stubbs, who helped the Reds win National League Central Division titles in 2010 and 2012, “We appreciate the contributions Drew made to our two championships. We wish him nothing but success in Cleveland.”

And here’s what Arizona sent:

PHOENIX — The Arizona Diamondbacks (@dbacks) have acquired shortstop Didi Gregorius (@DidiG18), left-handed pitcher Tony Sipp (@SippTony) and first baseman Lars Anderson from the Cleveland Indians in exchange for right-handed pitchers Trevor Bauer, Matt Albers and Bryan Shaw, according to D-backs Executive Vice President & General Manager Kevin Towers.

Gregorius, along with outfielder Drew Stubbs, had been acquired by Cleveland from Cincinnati in exchange for outfielder Shin-Soo Choo, infielder Josh Donald and cash considerations.

Gregorius, 22, was named to the Arizona Fall League’s Top Prospect Team in November after batting .284 (21-for-74) with 3 doubles, 1 home run and 8 RBI in 20 games. Gregorius also finished the season ranked by MLB.com as the Reds’ No. 5 Prospect and Baseball America’s Best Defensive shortstop in the Southern League.

The 6-foot-1, 185-pound left-handed hitter combined to hit .265 (133-for-501) with 21 doubles, 11 triples, 7 home runs and 54 RBI in 129 games with Double-A Pensacola and Triple-A Louisville in 2012. He played in 8 games with the Reds, batting .300 (6-for-20) with 2 RBI.

Gregorius is a career .271 (470-for-1735) hitter with 69 doubles, 27 triples, 20 home runs and 166 RBI in 443 Minor League games in the Reds’ organization. He entered 2012 rated by Baseball America as Cincinnati’s sixth-best prospect and named the organization’s Best Defensive Infielder and possessing the Best Throwing Arm.

http://cincinnati.com/blogs/reds/2012/12...eakingnews

This trade just keeps getting better!

@Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #Indians to send #Reds approximately $3.5M to account for differences in projected salaries between Choo, Stubbs.

Choo hits for average, the Reds need that in the worst way at the top of the order. His best season was in 2010 when he hit .300 (OBP of .401) with 22 HR's and 90 RBI's. Seems like a solid acquisition.

(12-11-2012 10:08 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  This trade just keeps getting better!

@Ken_Rosenthal
Source: #Indians to send #Reds approximately $3.5M to account for differences in projected salaries between Choo, Stubbs.

(12-11-2012 09:55 PM)Bearcat04 Wrote:  He's an above-average RF that'll likely be average in CF.

No need to make things up. His dWAR last year was -1.9 which is flat out awful for a RF (Stubbs was +.5 as a CF btw). Off year? maybe, but he's 30 years old and more importantly has only played 10 games in CF in his entire career. He's very likely to be below average as a CF and WAY below average if he doesn't bounce back from last year. His hitting needs to be VERY good to overcome his defensive deficiencies based upon last year.

Stubbs gave us very good D and hit well against LHP; he just couldn't hit RHP and Dusty didn't care. Choo will give us poor D in CF and great hitting against RHP; he's awful against LHP and Dusty won't care. Jason Donald is a non-factor, he's Jeff Branson II. I think we traded one set of problems for another and gave away a very talented prospect in the process. There had to be better, cheaper options to address CF.

What about putting Choo in RF and moving Jay Bruce to CF?

According to John Fay, Choo's OBP is .393. Last year the Reds leadoff position combined for a .254 OBP. Translated over the approximately 750 ABs at the leadoff spott means Choo gets on base about 100 times more a year. If you factor in that the leadoff man scores 43 percent of the time, that's an additional 43 runs scored. I doubt his subpar D gives up 43 runs.

(12-11-2012 11:15 PM)ctipton Wrote:  What about putting Choo in RF and moving Jay Bruce to CF?

That's probably the smarter route even though it means we get worse defense at 2 positions rather than one. But I kind of doubt Dusty will see it that way. CFs bat leadoff, man.

I'd be more concerned about defense if the Reds played most of their games in a large park. I think it'll be fine.

(12-11-2012 11:15 PM)Billy_Bearcat Wrote:  According to John Fay, Choo's OBP is .393. Last year the Reds leadoff position combined for a .254 OBP. Translated over the approximately 750 ABs at the leadoff spott means Choo gets on base about 100 times more a year. If you factor in that the leadoff man scores 43 percent of the time, that's an additional 43 runs scored. I doubt his subpar D gives up 43 runs.

There's no doubt the Reds needed major improvement at leadoff hitter from last year's pitiful performance, I just don't think this deal was the best way to address it.

And I'm not sure where you and/or Fay got a .393 OBP for Choo??? It's .381 lifetime (which is still darn good) according to b-r, but he is getting older: it was .373 last year and .344 the year before that.