No Caltex, I'm not missing the point at all. Yes, people can seek knowledge on their own but what college professors give you is a framework to process, question, and ultimately understand the information you are studying. Some people can make it without that framework, they can review information from various sources, balance what they read, and come to sound conclusions. However, that is atypical. Most self taught people have myopic views brought about by a lack of depth in their base. Anyone who has every argued say economics with someone who is self taught knows what I'm talking about. Learning to process various views and schools of thought is not easily self learned.

(09-28-2012 09:09 AM)banker Wrote:  No Caltex, I'm not missing the point at all. Yes, people can seek knowledge on their own but what college professors give you is a framework to process, question, and ultimately understand the information you are studying. Some people can make it without that framework, they can review information from various sources, balance what they read, and come to sound conclusions. However, that is atypical. Most self taught people have myopic views brought about by a lack of depth in their base. Anyone who has every argued say economics with someone who is self taught knows what I'm talking about. Learning to process various views and schools of thought is not easily self learned.

Well I'm not missing the point if your original one was "Pursuing knowledge is never a scam" when I clearly laid out (at least according to how you phrased it) it's not.

But to the point you made, you're kind of making it for me: that it is possible to study and make conclusions for yourself in some disciplines. Also, I agree about the idea of studying directly under an expert who can frame it and help you process it in some cases but that does not necessarily mean someone should have to sacrifice the amount of time, energy and money just to get a degree which includes classes that cover much of what you learned in high school as well as classes that you may not be interested in (i.e. the core classes) as well as even a few classes within a major/area of interest that do not apply to what you want or you have no interest in.

For some disciplines, in theory, it should only be a de facto requirement to have taken some instruction from an expert which doesn't necessarily mean getting a full four-plus year degree. Unfortunately today, it's become basically de jure to get 4-9 years of higher education, which may be about who has the most time to take all of these classes. Some have family and financial considerations that may make this not viable or take too long.

How serious do employers take it if you go to a school that offers degrees just for the discipline you are studying (basically, all you're doing is taking a certain major and not the extremely expensive core classes.)?

(09-28-2012 09:09 AM)banker Wrote:  No Caltex, I'm not missing the point at all. Yes, people can seek knowledge on their own but what college professors give you is a framework to process, question, and ultimately understand the information you are studying. Some people can make it without that framework, they can review information from various sources, balance what they read, and come to sound conclusions. However, that is atypical. Most self taught people have myopic views brought about by a lack of depth in their base. Anyone who has every argued say economics with someone who is self taught knows what I'm talking about. Learning to process various views and schools of thought is not easily self learned.

College in general, the idealized college education is absolutely not a scam. But there are many institutions out there that are scamming students. You can't tell me University of Phoenix and the likes are worth their cost.

Holy , a Bachelor of Science in Accounting at UofP Estimated Tuition & Expenses is $74,000. That is $585 per credit for 120 credits total. That is an even bigger scam that I originally thought.

F that noise

Nah, I disagree. Kanye West, for all his faults, is a genius when it comes to what he said about college though it's still "needed" for many people now days.

(09-27-2012 05:53 AM)Chappy Wrote:  College is not a scam, but the mentality that was pushed for the last two decades - that EVERYONE should go to college - was a bad idea.

This.

Well, think of it this way. If you're contemplating going to college and will have to get a loan then you can subtract the money from your actual paycheck to pay off the loan so in the long run (depending on how much and for how long you have to pay that loan. It's almost like what the nBE people will have to do. What they'll have to pay cusa, what they'll have to pay to the nBE, what they'll have to pay for travel, and perhaps what they'll have to pay to bring in teams to their stadiums as the big conferences do. It's quite similar, unfortunately many don't look at those numbers.

Fortunately, I was being paid to go to school through the G.I. Bill.

P.S. sorry to hijack the thread but I thought it was a good analogy.

No that's fine and not hijacking.

Like I said in the OP though, 200-250 years ago universities were needed because of the technology available, the amount of travel (and thus time) it took to spread ideas and messages and the fact that most people were illiterate. Now days, most people are literate by the time they get out of high school and because of technological advances have access to a world of information without even leaving their room/house. Granted, especially for some professions, there's only so much you can learn on your own and for many things you need guidance and direction of an expert but a college degree isn't as relevant and meaningful as it used to be, in theory anyways.

Also, someone made a good point earlier that you go to Ivy League schools or of similar stature for networking more so than the education, which at a slightly lower level can be achieved at hundreds of other colleges.

(09-27-2012 05:53 AM)Chappy Wrote:  College is not a scam, but the mentality that was pushed for the last two decades - that EVERYONE should go to college - was a bad idea.

Are there useless degrees giving out by Universities?...Yes. McDonald's hires lots of them as managers. I guess there is nothing wrong with that, but it seems a waste of the fruits of one's parents labor in order to grow up away from home. The same thing could have been done without going to college.

I agree Chap...We have placed way too much importance on getting a college degree on our kids. What we should be doing is pushing being "trained" for work. Government schools need to be more geared toward preparing HS kids to go out and be productive workers. I have hired hundreds of kids out of HS over the last 30 years of my job. I have found consistently(and see it getting worse) that young people have NO clue how to do the basic things necessary to hold and keep a job.

(09-27-2012 10:05 AM)TUBballJunkie Wrote:  

(09-27-2012 09:55 AM)JDTulane Wrote:  University life is priceless.

Agree with that too.

And everything I've experienced in life since starting at Tulsa 15 years ago is a spin off from that fortunate choice.

I tend to agree. I would submit though that while one is experiencing University life...that they engage themselves in fields of learning and activities that will allow them to find a job and be productive in the real world. I am not going to take the time to point out the useless degrees that Universities hand out. I think we all know what these are. Having to come back home and again be a dependent is embarrassing. Urge your kids to find a worthwhile field of study...or...send them to a community college for vocational training. Brick layers, Electricians, Plumbers and Construction tradesmen make a decent living and are usually in demand. We all know very successful people that only had vocational training or who simply learned their trade via the family business.

And people would be less likely to be drowning in student loan debt.

It's quite possible to make a wise investment in your university and course of study and not be drowning in debt. Whether it's a scam or not depends on an individual's choices.

True, I never denied that. There was a great post early on that idea that everyone should attend college was dead on and highlights the problem.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-has...tha,30853/

The Onion nails it again. It's an exaggeration on some criticisms of college but certainly make a solid point.

It may have already been stated but degrees are becoming a dime a dozen. When i was a corporate trainer it astounded me how many ppl with bachelors & masters taking entry level jobs for $11 & $12/hr.

Fyi amazingly most could not spell, write a complete sentence nor verbally communicate over the phone but they had a degree.

(my spelling errors are from being on a small touch pad screen so i have an excuse. LOL)

It's what pisses me off because college was holding me back. I knew people who got better grades than me (in part because they cheated or took easy classes/professors) that weren't nearly as sharp or well rounded. Hard to study much when there's the other aspects of college life (i.e. socializing, including parties, frats, sports, etc...).

Education should be about making people profess something forwards and backwards to the point where even if they don't completely understand it, an instructor will at least know they got the jist of it. I think a multiple choice tests (which can be easy to cheat on) defeats the whole purpose unless it's like a 300 question test and thus forces you to study a broad range of topics. It shouldn't be about making the grade but benefiting the person so they can in turn benefit society. That's the least colleges can do if we're forced to go to have a degree or two.

But no one has time anymore to dissect a full book (not just read but comprehend), not with sports, Dancing With the Stars and parties to go to. And it's sad that schools feel pressured to pass students who didn't try hard enough, doing it both because of the want to bring more money in and to keep graduation rates up.

(01-16-2013 05:04 PM)Caltex2 Wrote:  It's what pisses me off because college was holding me back. I knew people who got better grades than me (in part because they cheated or took easy classes/professors) that weren't nearly as sharp or well rounded. Hard to study much when there's the other aspects of college life (i.e. socializing, including parties, frats, sports, etc...).

Education should be about making people profess something forwards and backwards to the point where even if they don't completely understand it, an instructor will at least know they got the jist of it. I think a multiple choice tests (which can be easy to cheat on) defeats the whole purpose unless it's like a 300 question test and thus forces you to study a broad range of topics. It shouldn't be about making the grade but benefiting the person so they can in turn benefit society. That's the least colleges can do if we're forced to go to have a degree or two.

I favor essay tests to multiple choice because it shows whether they have an understanding of the subject at hand. That being said, people will cram for that test, regurgitate, and forget it within a week.

College is a reflection of our current society. The students no longer need to accumulate knowledge. They only need to know how to properly search for it. Should a darkage happen (ala Revolution), I think we would be in for a shitstorm.

That just about sums up your last sentence. Like I said, people are going in part to get the grade and in part for all of the excess parts of the college experience, not the education itself with rare exception. There's some majors you can't BS around in and expect to be taken serious on the job market but many don't do much for you.

That's why it's better to go to college when you're ready because it's not going anywhere, it's BS we pressure kids straight out of high school who probably don't know what they wanna do in life into "finding themselves" and meeting new people (as if you have to go to college for that) at a hefty price. And if you know you're just going to get the degree, what's the rush? Spend 6-8 years in college which will make it easier for you to pay it off as you go not to mention when you get out.