(07-30-2012 12:20 PM)CrazyCajun Wrote:  

(07-30-2012 10:53 AM)cajunhawk Wrote:  No family should be proud of their confederate tradition. It was a stain on America and should be looked upon as such. It's like flying a Nazi flag in Germany and being proud of it. I may be from the south but I live by this mantra..."Cajun by birth, Southern because that's where they decided to dump us."

CajunHawk, war is not entirely a moral act regardless of the cause including slavery. For many people like yourself, the Civil War is simplistically viewed in black and white. Keep in mind that the Civil War was predominately fought on southern soil and by non slave owners. To many southern people, they were fighting for a way of life and independent thinking. Watching many of their towns and cities come under siege during military battle; having medical supplies cut off from ordinary citizens and watching thousands die from disease outbreaks like Small Pox, Malaria and Yellow Fever only embolden the common folk to fight even more. Northern armies raided local farms and villages, taking everything from live stock, poultry and crops from ordinary citizens. Often leaving the families behind to starve with no economic means to survive and to those people the call to duty to defend family and property was a noble cause.

And I would be very careful in comparing southerners to “Nazis” when in fact our sitting president at the time Abraham Lincoln had little regard for the civil rights of dissenting Americans in the North. It was Lincoln that waived Habeas Corpus and Posse Comitatus allowing the arrest of thousands of anti-war dissenters and shutting down newspapers in the north. It was also Lincoln that was willing to negotiate to allow slavery to continue in the south in order to preserve the Union.

While no one is suggesting fighting for slavery was a noble cause, defending family and property from a brutal enemy was indeed to many southerners a righteous cause. Sadly the Civil War will continue to be the most divisive event ever to take place on American soil because of the ignorance of many on both sides of the debate. Southerners have a unique view because many stories of the Civil War were handed down from generation to generation; those stories are viewed through the prism of a war literally fought in their own back yards, watching the deaths of family and neighbors and eventually occupation under Marshall Law.

Wait a minute there...they were not fighting for a way of life and independent thinking...they were fighting for slavery. It's written all over the pages of history. The civil war was about...slavery. Not freedom, not the right to do anything, not the removal of any liberties, it was about being able to exploit a class of people for personal gain. We all know the reason the majority of the war was fought on Southern soil...cause they were getting demolished on every front. It was an no win situation from the word go. You can give me the old tired "Gone With The Wind" pity party story but if the South had any brains they would have learned to pick their own damn cotton instead of trying to bring down the Union.

The Nazis were a failed regime with a morally reprehensible premise disguised as national unity. I think it's a very apt comparison. No one wants to be associated with the Nazis. But in this case it fits...oh so well. I know what the Nazis did, we all do. I know what the Confederacy did, we all should know. Is one way worse than the other...of course...but moral high ground is not the Confederacy's strong point. We all know Lincoln was talking out of both sides of his mouth...that's History 101. The man gets too much credit for ending something he had every intention of allowing to be legal all over the United States if it meant stopping all out war. The man had no balls. Typical politician.

You are correct...defending family and property will always be a righteous cause, but the brutal enemy was their own doing. My father always told me..."don't tug on Supermans cape." That is a lesson the Confederacy needed in spades. You are also correct that Southerners have a unique view. It's strange that some still feel cheated out of some great manifest destiny that the South was headed towards. Let's look at it from my ancestors. The people who were made fun of before the war as indigents and trespassers in South Louisiana. The Acadians. None of my ancestors fought in the war...cause we had no property to speak of. After the war...no one made fun of us anymore...because they were knee deep in the muck and mire themselves. Serves them right. They deserved every last bit of what they wrought upon themselves. It takes losing everything to realize what you lost. "When you have nothing to begin with...it all looked pretty foolish." Those were the words of my great, great grandfather Alphonse Guidry who was a child during that time. He passed that story on to my grandfather...who told it to me.

Those stories you mentioned are viewed through a skewed veil of righteousness. Of course they believe they were right...they lost everything they had for a cause...a terrible cause at that...they better believe they were right. You can judge the character of a person by how they react after they make a mistake. If they realize the folly of their ways and decide never to undertake such foolish acts again...bravo. If they feel cheated, cry foul, wax poetically about what could have been, or preach revenge ...you haven't learned your lesson...and will repeat the same mistakes of your forefathers. And we wonder why the South just can't rise again....

(07-31-2012 08:28 AM)cajunhawk Wrote:  Wait a minute there...they were not fighting for a way of life and independent thinking...they were fighting for slavery. It's written all over the pages of history. The civil war was about...slavery.

History is written by the victors. If you think because its in all the text books that must be the way it happened, youre in trouble.

cajunhawk, I think you are way off bud. And comparing the Confederacy to the Nazi regime is definitly wrong and downright insulting. I'm sorry you are so ashamed of your history, but most of us recognize it as a point of pride. Yes, slavery existed, but it was certainly NOT the basis for the war. The Civil War was fought over a difference in opinion on the roles of government.

The Southern States believed that power rested with the soverign States as opposed to the centralized federal government, and so they seceeded legally from the Union. Slavery was certainly a part of the Southern agricultural economy, but it was the North who claimed it as a justification for the war AFTER their aggression was well-underway. Abraham Lincoln rebranded the purpose for the fight as public opinion in the North began to sway due to war fatigue with the population. It wasn't his initial reasoning for going to war with the South. Originally his stance was preserving the Union, but as people in the North began to care less about that, he turned the struggle in to a moral issue over slavery.

Obviously no one on here supports the practice of slavery, but at the time it was a common thing across the globe. Eventually it would have been phased out as machinery capable of doing the same work came into existence. That is a given since it would be cheaper to have machines do the work, rather than having to support people. Northern aggression destroyed the South and our economy, leaving us poor and destitute under a brutal military occupation. It was a tradgedy that many don't even know about because the North wrote the history books.

(07-31-2012 09:40 AM)Glassonion Wrote:  

(07-31-2012 08:28 AM)cajunhawk Wrote:  Wait a minute there...they were not fighting for a way of life and independent thinking...they were fighting for slavery. It's written all over the pages of history. The civil war was about...slavery.

History is written by the victors. If you think because its in all the text books that must be the way it happened, youre in trouble.

No need to quote Braveheart...

(07-31-2012 11:01 AM)Burn the Horse Wrote:  cajunhawk, I think you are way off bud. And comparing the Confederacy to the Nazi regime is definitly wrong and downright insulting. I'm sorry you are so ashamed of your history, but most of us recognize it as a point of pride. Yes, slavery existed, but it was certainly NOT the basis for the war. The Civil War was fought over a difference in opinion on the roles of government.

The Southern States believed that power rested with the soverign States as opposed to the centralized federal government, and so they seceeded legally from the Union. Slavery was certainly a part of the Southern agricultural economy, but it was the North who claimed it as a justification for the war AFTER their aggression was well-underway. Abraham Lincoln rebranded the purpose for the fight as public opinion in the North began to sway due to war fatigue with the population. It wasn't his initial reasoning for going to war with the South. Originally his stance was preserving the Union, but as people in the North began to care less about that, he turned the struggle in to a moral issue over slavery.

Obviously no one on here supports the practice of slavery, but at the time it was a common thing across the globe. Eventually it would have been phased out as machinery capable of doing the same work came into existence. That is a given since it would be cheaper to have machines do the work, rather than having to support people. Northern aggression destroyed the South and our economy, leaving us poor and destitute under a brutal military occupation. It was a tradgedy that many don't even know about because the North wrote the history books.

I said it before...it's not my history. My ancestors were just dumped here...like slaves. You want to think that the Confederacy was different from Nazi Germany...let's read some quotes from Jefferson Davis on slavery shall we:

"If slavery be a sin, it is not yours. It does not rest on your action for its origin, on your consent for its existence. It is a common law right to property in the service of man; its origin was Divine decree." Jefferson Davis

"My own convictions as to negro slavery are strong. It has its evils and abuses...We recognize the negro as God and God's Book and God's Laws, in nature, tell us to recognize him - our inferior, fitted expressly for servitude...You cannot transform the negro into anything one-tenth as useful or as good as what slavery enables them to be." Jefferson Davis

Interesting...god gives us the right to own people...awesome. Hmmm...lets listen to old Adolf Hitler and see how he felt about Jews:

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: 'by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Adolf Hitler

Wow...two people...born in different times...both invoking the name of god to justify their reprehensible acts. Should I go further? Keep that as a point of pride. That's not my culture and heritage. The difference of opinion was...is slavery legal. You can debate this all you want...you can use semantics to jostle the words around and make them not about slavery...but in the end...it was about slavery. Every difference was a slavery issue. Whether it's economic and social issues, state's sovereignty, etc. It's just a round about way to say...South wanted slaves.

States rights...on slave owning. This is what they disagreed over. The Crittenden Compromise...you know where they actually gave the South everything they wanted just to shut them up. They gave them every opportunity to forego succession from the Union. That was in early 1861. They tried to keep the Union together by caving to the South. You can't rebrand that. The Succession was and always will be over the issue of slavery. The Confederacy attacked first...everyone knows that. Fort Sumter. Or were we all taught wrong? The Confederacy fired the shot. Lincoln tried to preserve the Union by caving to Southern demands regarding slaves and run away slaves. They rejected the Compromise...then they succeeded and then Fort Sumter. It all comes back to slavery, and no clever wording can ever change that.

Slavery was obsolete in America at the time of the Civil War. As you can see from Jefferson Davis's quotes above it was not a point of cost...it was a point of god's will. Southern bigotry, stupidity, and arrogance destroyed the South. And they deserved every bit they got. I wonder how Robert E Lee felt about the whole ordeal:

"So far from engaging in a war to perpetuate slavery, I am rejoiced that Slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interest of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this that I would have cheerfully lost all that I have lost by the war, and have suffered all that I have suffered to have this object attained." Robert E Lee

Ouch. That kind of shoots a big ole hole in your story their bud. At least he learned his lesson. The rest of the South would be wise to let it all go...dump the Rebel flags and racism...and join the modern world.

Wow, OK cajunhawk you go right ahead and keep on keepin' on brother. Im not going to sit here and argue with someone who has made up their mind to spread hate.

No one here is defending slavery, your the only person discussing that. it's OK to be proud of your ancestors for their military service to the Confederacy, I know I am. My ancestor Colonol William C. Oats led the brave charge of the Alabama Regiments up Little Round Top where he lost his left arm in valiant combat. He later went on to become the Govenor of the Great State of Alabama. I have no shame whatsoever, in fact, my heart swells with pride at his heroics in battle and his service to my homeland that followed.

cajunhawk, I think you are in the minority here bud. very few Southerners see the Confederacy and our struggle the same way you do. In fact, I have never met a Southerner who held your opinions, so you are an anomally to me.

(07-31-2012 06:11 PM)Burn the Horse Wrote:  cajunhawk, I think you are in the minority here bud. very few Southerners see the Confederacy and our struggle the same way you do. In fact, I have never met a Southerner who held your opinions, so you are an anomally to me.

A few thoughts on that...is that Southerners lack critical thinking skills? Or do they accept the norm without question so as not to be ostracized? Either way I'm proud to be outside of the majority...stupidity runs in large groups.

You may find this interesting.
http://blackconfederates.blogspot.com/20...olour.html

The real problem is that racists have adopted the stars and bars as their flag.

(08-01-2012 10:04 AM)panama Wrote:  The real problem is that racists have adopted the stars and bars as their flag.

exactly. it pains me to see the proud battle flag of the Confederacy being flown next to the Swastika. the racists have hijacked a piece of our heritage and used it to promote their hate, those ignorent jerks.

(08-01-2012 10:04 AM)panama Wrote:  The real problem is that racists have adopted the stars and bars as their flag.

Bingo. The racists took the symbols of the confederacy as their slogans stretching from the KKK to the present day.

The north profitted off slavery and is unapologetic about it because their wrong wasnt as bad. The Confederacy never had a chance to redeem itself and the wider US remained around to do so.

I do think the "late unpleasantness" are days best forgotten.