(07-31-2012 11:02 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(07-31-2012 12:53 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-30-2012 08:56 PM)Claw Wrote:  The biggest thing that needs to happen is to get the federal government out of the curriculum and evaluation business.

Why?

We need a diversity of approaches across the nation. In the long run, letting states and localities teach what they need to teach will produce a stronger, more diversely educated populace that is better able to meet the challenges of the future.

In other words you want the Bible and Creationism in schools.

No, not at all.

I simply mean that different systems teaching different things across the country will produce an intellectual diversity that national standards does not produce. Just like we don't raise the same crops across the country, our schools shouldn't be producing the same things. We need diversity of thought and knowledge. That is a much more valuable asset than good standardized test scores.

Oh, I see you want to rewrite history. Gotcha.

(08-01-2012 12:03 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-31-2012 11:02 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(07-31-2012 12:53 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-30-2012 08:56 PM)Claw Wrote:  The biggest thing that needs to happen is to get the federal government out of the curriculum and evaluation business.

Why?

We need a diversity of approaches across the nation. In the long run, letting states and localities teach what they need to teach will produce a stronger, more diversely educated populace that is better able to meet the challenges of the future.

In other words you want the Bible and Creationism in schools.

No, not at all.

I simply mean that different systems teaching different things across the country will produce an intellectual diversity that national standards does not produce. Just like we don't raise the same crops across the country, our schools shouldn't be producing the same things. We need diversity of thought and knowledge. That is a much more valuable asset than good standardized test scores.

Oh, I see you want to rewrite history. Gotcha.

Nope. I just think national standardized tests inhibit innovative education. Besides, we have tried them, and they haven't raised the quality of education.

It's time to try something else, and in my opinion, trying lots of different things is more likely to produce results.

(07-31-2012 12:47 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(07-31-2012 07:03 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(07-30-2012 10:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The problem is not teachers.

Cant agree here. Plenty of bad teachers. They dont understand their suject, they dont understand their role, and they dont understand the craft of teaching.

That's teacher training then. Also, if there are plenty of bad teachers, there are plenty of good.

Nomad, I don't think anyone is arguing there are good and bad.. but look at the infamous "New York Rubber Room". NY school system CANNOT fire bad teachers that have to go to that room, and they still have to pay them.

That's just the most well known example...

As for standardized tests.. I disagree with people who say there's not a need for them, but they should only be PART of the process

(07-31-2012 11:02 PM)Claw Wrote:  

(07-31-2012 12:53 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-30-2012 08:56 PM)Claw Wrote:  The biggest thing that needs to happen is to get the federal government out of the curriculum and evaluation business.

Why?

We need a diversity of approaches across the nation. In the long run, letting states and localities teach what they need to teach will produce a stronger, more diversely educated populace that is better able to meet the challenges of the future.

In other words you want the Bible and Creationism in schools.

No, not at all.

I simply mean that different systems teaching different things across the country will produce an intellectual diversity that national standards does not produce. Just like we don't raise the same crops across the country, our schools shouldn't be producing the same things. We need diversity of thought and knowledge. That is a much more valuable asset than good standardized test scores.

I agree. What I don't understand is the big panic over math and science scores. I think that people think that higher scores means that more people are good at the two subjects and that more kids will choose careers there. While that may be true, you end up with a lot students who are procedurally efficient and little else. Just because you can solve math problems and you can do science doesn't mean that you actually understand them or like them. I know a ton of people that were excellent at the two and then majored in english, history, or business.

I think that it would be pointless to have those higher scores (or more kids with average scores) without kids being interested in pursuing those subjects beyond the minimum. That's where we fail, IMO.

Edit: I also wonder how much their math and science scores have been skewed because of the kids that probably would've scored lower may not actually take the test. In a lot of countries they would have been tracked off or undergoing an apprenticeship.

(08-01-2012 12:22 AM)DaSaintFan Wrote:  

(07-31-2012 12:47 PM)nomad2u2001 Wrote:  

(07-31-2012 07:03 AM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(07-30-2012 10:02 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  The problem is not teachers.

Cant agree here. Plenty of bad teachers. They dont understand their suject, they dont understand their role, and they dont understand the craft of teaching.

That's teacher training then. Also, if there are plenty of bad teachers, there are plenty of good.

Nomad, I don't think anyone is arguing there are good and bad.. but look at the infamous "New York Rubber Room". NY school system CANNOT fire bad teachers that have to go to that room, and they still have to pay them.

That's just the most well known example...

As for standardized tests.. I disagree with people who say there's not a need for them, but they should only be PART of the process

There needs to be some type of standardized testing and as you said, they should only be a part of the process. Preferably they will be limited to being a guidance tool like in Finland, Switzerland, and Germany. They should also be kept within states. There's no need for a national test and thank goodness we don't have one.