(07-24-2012 05:51 AM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  

(07-23-2012 08:14 PM)AndreWhere Wrote:  Catholic academia actually leans pretty hard to the left.

"My" Catholic friends disagree?
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/ap...p0140.html

I'm not sure what contorted logic the people at Liberty use to convince themselves that Jesus was a sort of proto-Israelite Dan Quayle, but the conclusions they draw strike me as fairly ridiculous.

They don't?
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa1.htm

To try and conflate Liberty with Notre Dame is similarly absurd. They haven't been playing on the same side since the days of Martin Luther.

Politically, Protestants and Catholics are on the same page today more than ever?

Folks that agree with you have successfully removed God from our schools. That's working out nicely? So I guess what you're saying is, now we need to purge the NCAA of any practicing Christian Universities. Sounds like a GREAT idea?

I never understood the argument that says well because they "took God out of schools" then these bad things started happening. To say something along those lines is to ignore the FACT that humans are flawed, and have been doing terrible things since the beginning. Group think is at work here (ie. because they don't believe like us, they must be the reason bad things happen).

(07-24-2012 08:41 AM)gata_dawg Wrote:  I never understood the argument that says well because they "took God out of schools" then these bad things started happening. To say something along those lines is to ignore the FACT that humans are flawed, and have been doing terrible things since the beginning.

Good point ....

(07-24-2012 05:51 AM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  

(07-23-2012 08:14 PM)AndreWhere Wrote:  Catholic academia actually leans pretty hard to the left.

"My" Catholic friends disagree?
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/ap...p0140.html

I'm not sure what contorted logic the people at Liberty use to convince themselves that Jesus was a sort of proto-Israelite Dan Quayle, but the conclusions they draw strike me as fairly ridiculous.

They don't?
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/incaa1.htm

To try and conflate Liberty with Notre Dame is similarly absurd. They haven't been playing on the same side since the days of Martin Luther.

Politically, Protestants and Catholics are on the same page today more than ever?

Folks that agree with you have successfully removed God from our schools. That's working out nicely? So I guess what you're saying is, now we need to purge the NCAA of any practicing Christian Universities. Sounds like a GREAT idea?

Why in the world do you want a government worker teaching your children religion? That's the job for, well, parochial schools and most of all churches and families. That was one of the best Supreme Court decisions ever - it actually strengthens religion.

The problem with Liberty is that they try to place their theology into secular law. And you don't see Cal Berkley banning the "Young Republicans" from their campus.

(07-23-2012 03:22 PM)panama Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 11:04 PM)77Herd11 Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 03:41 PM)Whiteboard3 Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 02:18 PM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 10:53 AM)HerdZoned Wrote:  If I were a IA conference I wouldn't touch Liberty University with a 10 foot pole. The school has been and is way to controversial.

It is a private Christian University, I guess to "some" that's controversial? I have friends that attended the school, they are some of the nicest people I've ever met. It's a awesome University. First class "everything". Top notch facilities, totally committed to athletics. An all star "Christian" coaching staff (Turner Gill, Carl Torbush, Mike Minter etc.). You guys be sure to watch for Liberty grad, former Flames Sports Network member Samantha Steele on ESPN this season.

Samantha Steele Replaces Erin Andrews ESPN

http://www.libertyflames.com/index.cfm?P...41&TeamID=

I think you miss the point. I myself am a Christian, and I definitely respect a lot of what happens up at Liberty. The problem comes when Liberty takes an outspoken opinion about a social issue, like gay marriage. These conferences have so much on the line in TV money, that the thought of offending someone is quite scary.

So... if you want to play FBS football you need not have controversial opinions? What happened to freedom of speech? Freedom of religion? I have heard university professors and administrators say some fundamentally untrue things about religion and believers of all stripes. That should be considered controversial, but it is not. Say what you believe.

Its hard to hide behind free speech when you dont believe in free speech and a diversity of opinions (see what they did to the campus Young Democrats in 2009). They point is they made their bed and no conference in FBS is taking them knowing that end goal is not to better the conference but to promote a political agenda. And they really need to sop comparing themselves to Notre Dame or BYU or any other Christian university. They stand out like a sore them on the fringe. Own it Liberty.

Disingenuous Gee Whillickers Liberty Response in 3...2...1...

Just a few points:
1) I am a Herd fan, not a Liberty U. fan
2) I am a fan of the Constitution
As a Private/ Religious entity Liberty is free to allow, or remove, any group they choose. If that group is openly advocating ideals that contrary to the Universities belief system they may choose to expel that group. Personally, I believe that is the wrong approach. Although I am a conservative Christian, I do not believe many things that Liberty holds true, therefore I did not and do not attend Liberty University. For me- problem solved. That is irrelevant to wether or not their athletic programs should be welcome in a conference. As long as LU and the conference understand that they may not share each others beliefs and each respects the differences... why not? I think we have already established that the driving force in realignment is financial- they would likely bring much needed money (and exposer) to the SBC. The SBC should not dismiss LU because they are religious (different).

(07-24-2012 11:10 AM)EdisonDoyle Wrote:  Why in the world do you want a government worker teaching your children religion? That's the job for, well, parochial schools and most of all churches and families. That was one of the best Supreme Court decisions ever - it actually strengthens religion.

First, let me say I do not attended LU and never have ... just know some folks that did. What I have posted here is MY opinion only. I love NCAA football and going to their games. And I agree with you, I do not want my kids taught religion in a "public" school. Right now they are having trouble teaching math. BUT lately the sentiment / curriculum at the public schools seem to have totally reversed, it seems as if they have declared war on my families faith. Some of the post in this thread come across that way?? And you're right, it HAS cause more families to chose parochial schools. More than likely playing a big roll in LU's enormous growth. Now does that mean our children should be disqualified from competing in the NCAA at the highest level at the University of their choice if they it and they are capable?

(07-24-2012 01:33 PM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  

(07-24-2012 11:10 AM)EdisonDoyle Wrote:  Why in the world do you want a government worker teaching your children religion? That's the job for, well, parochial schools and most of all churches and families. That was one of the best Supreme Court decisions ever - it actually strengthens religion.

First, let me say I do not attended LU and never have ... just know some folks that did. What I have posted here is MY opinion only. I love NCAA football and going to their game. And I agree with you, I do not want my kids taught religion in a "public" school. Right now they are having trouble teaching math. BUT lately the sentiment / curriculum seems to have totally reversed, it seems as if they have declared war on my families faith. Some of the post in this thread come across that way?? And you're right, it HAS cause more families to chose parochial schools. More than likely playing a big roll in LU's enormous growth. Now does that mean our children should be disqualified from competing in the NCAA at the highest level at the University of their choice if they are capable?

At all Sun Belt schools, everyone, including Gays, non-christians and evangelicals can contribute to the success of the school as teachers, students, athletes, fans, and University employees. And the CUSA is no different. At Liberty, there is discrimination and exclusion. That's their business. But Liberty shouldn't be surprised if no one wants to associate with them and their discriminatory policies.

Besides, if you are so scared of teh Gay that they can't have them working as a History teacher at their school, then why would they want to associate with any conference (like CUSA or the Sun Belt) where 'teh Gay' or 'teh Mooslim' might actually be in a position of authority.

And there are only two FBS schools that come close to the level of exclusion that Liberty does, BYU and Baylor. And BYU got torched by the PAC-12 for that very reason.

(07-24-2012 01:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  

(07-24-2012 01:33 PM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  

(07-24-2012 11:10 AM)EdisonDoyle Wrote:  Why in the world do you want a government worker teaching your children religion? That's the job for, well, parochial schools and most of all churches and families. That was one of the best Supreme Court decisions ever - it actually strengthens religion.

First, let me say I do not attended LU and never have ... just know some folks that did. What I have posted here is MY opinion only. I love NCAA football and going to their game. And I agree with you, I do not want my kids taught religion in a "public" school. Right now they are having trouble teaching math. BUT lately the sentiment / curriculum seems to have totally reversed, it seems as if they have declared war on my families faith. Some of the post in this thread come across that way?? And you're right, it HAS cause more families to chose parochial schools. More than likely playing a big roll in LU's enormous growth. Now does that mean our children should be disqualified from competing in the NCAA at the highest level at the University of their choice if they are capable?

At all Sun Belt schools, everyone, including Gays, non-christians and evangelicals can contribute to the success of the school as teachers, students, athletes, fans, and University employees. And the CUSA is no different. At Liberty, there is discrimination and exclusion. That's their business. But Liberty shouldn't be surprised if no one wants to associate with them and their discriminatory policies.

Besides, if you are so scared of teh Gay that they can't have them working as a History teacher at their school, then why would they want to associate with any conference (like CUSA or the Sun Belt) where 'teh Gay' or 'teh Mooslim' might actually be in a position of authority.

And there are only two FBS schools that come close to the level of exclusion that Liberty does, BYU and Baylor. And BYU got torched by the PAC-12 for that very reason.

This is exactly why Liberty should never be taken seriously in sports or academics. I personally take issue with all religious zealots or extremists. I have no problem with a religious institution practicing what it preaches and expecting its students to do the same. Thus (an example), a Jew attending Georgetown University should be sensitive to that Catholic school's policies. At the same time Georgetown should respect the Jewish students, and accomodate them as best as possible without ever having to be forced to compromise its principles.

The problem with Liberty is that it is an extremist right-wing organization that accepts no other views, and openly discriminates against those that do not share its beliefs. This is not to say that Liberty does not have the right to exist or practice its hard-core beliefs. I will fight for Liberty's right to exist, teach, and practice its beliefs. Just don't ask me to want to participate in sports with your extremist organization. And I would feel the same way about any extremist left-wing university that bans heterosexuals and Republicans. I can already imagine many of you arguing that Brown and U of Cal at Berkeley may fit the mold!!! In any event, I have no problem with the University of Chicago's conservative bent or Berkeley's clear progressive slant. At least they allow all types of organizations, etc.

(07-24-2012 01:33 PM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  

(07-24-2012 11:10 AM)EdisonDoyle Wrote:  Why in the world do you want a government worker teaching your children religion? That's the job for, well, parochial schools and most of all churches and families. That was one of the best Supreme Court decisions ever - it actually strengthens religion.

First, let me say I do not attended LU and never have ... just know some folks that did. What I have posted here is MY opinion only. I love NCAA football and going to their games. And I agree with you, I do not want my kids taught religion in a "public" school. Right now they are having trouble teaching math. BUT lately the sentiment / curriculum at the public schools seem to have totally reversed, it seems as if they have declared war on my families faith. Some of the post in this thread come across that way?? And you're right, it HAS cause more families to chose parochial schools. More than likely playing a big roll in LU's enormous growth. Now does that mean our children should be disqualified from competing in the NCAA at the highest level at the University of their choice if they it and they are capable?

Hopefully, your kids (or anyone else's) will never be taught religion in any public high school!!! Isn't this something we should all want? First, it makes no sense. What religion should be taught? Judaism, Islam, or Christianity? How about the different branches within each? Roman Catholic or Eygptian Coptic Christianity? Orthodox Jewish religion perhaps? How about Carribbean Santeria (voodoo)? Who decides? Second, call me crazy, but I really believe in that separation of church and state.

Also, I agree with you on the right to allow your children to go to any religious insitution, high school, or college of your choice. Want to teach your children that Jupiter is the creator - - I say go for it, as long as you teach him/her at the prescribed minimum education for your State of residence. And please don't start up with this silly argument that the public schools have declared war on faith and American values. The public schools pay teachers way too little. The only war these teachers fight is the war against poverty. For whatever it is worth, I went to Catholic schools my entire life including post-graduate studies. The only public school I attended was FIU. And by the way, religious schools have seen a decline in student enrollment!! And it is not because of a war against religion. It is simply the result of a terrible economy.

Finally, I don't want to have to play any extremist university. period. end-of-story. Liberty is on the extreme right fringe. Schedule football games against Tehran Univeristy or the North Korean Institute of Logic, but not against traditional and tolerant institutions of all types.

(07-24-2012 01:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  But Liberty shouldn't be surprised if no one wants to associate with them and their discriminatory policies.

Carr Sports, one of the most highly respected NCAA consulting firms recently completed a study of LU. According to the articles I read, they concluded that of all of the schools they have evaluated, several dozen, they have never seen a school more prepared for its major athletics initiative than Liberty. The Carr articles said that Liberty is prepared in every sense of the word for an FBS move. But what you're saying is; that's not good enough; because of their belief in what the Bible teaches. I think you are in the minority of football fans with that conclusion.

It is pretty amazing and disturbing that a Christian school that actually sticks to its principles is held in such low regard. Notre Dame allowed Obama to speak, in spite of his support for abortion. Columbia invited Ahmadinijad (sp) to speak, in spite of his hatred for America and Western Civilization.

So let's see if I get this right. Disagreement for liberals is OK, as long as it is not conservative. However, when supporting leftist ideals, its called social justice. The hypocrisy of the left never ceases to amaze.

Liberty is fine school. If you do not like its ideals, don;t send your kids there.

(07-24-2012 10:48 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  It is pretty amazing and disturbing that a Christian school that actually sticks to its principles is held in such low regard. Notre Dame allowed Obama to speak, in spite of his support for abortion. Columbia invited Ahmadinijad (sp) to speak, in spite of his hatred for America and Western Civilization.

So let's see if I get this right. Disagreement for liberals is OK, as long as it is not conservative. However, when supporting leftist ideals, its called social justice. The hypocrisy of the left never ceases to amaze.

Liberty is fine school. If you do not like its ideals, don;t send your kids there.

You are welcome to advocate Liberty in CUSA. We don't want them in the Sun Belt. They can bring their loser football coach, their toxic politics, their marginal record in FCS, their obnoxious claim to speak for Christianity, their questionable commitment to science, boring gameday experience for visiting fans, and their record of not doing squat to help their current conference (the Big South) to your conference. We don't like its 'ideals'. We'd rather not associate with Liberty at all. And we are free to say.."the Sun Belt only wants schools that allow all sectors of society to contribute to our future success".

With regards to your claims of discrimination against Christians at other schools, name one school where fundamentalist Christians are barred from employment at the University.

(07-24-2012 10:06 PM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  

(07-24-2012 01:44 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  But Liberty shouldn't be surprised if no one wants to associate with them and their discriminatory policies.

Carr Sports, one of the most highly respected NCAA consulting firms recently completed a study of LU. According to the articles I read, they concluded that of all of those schools they have evaluated, several dozen, they have never seen a school more prepared for its major athletics initiative than Liberty. The Carr articles said that Liberty is prepared in every sense of the word for an FBS move. But what you're saying is; that's not good enough; because of their belief in what the Bible teaches. I think you are in the minority of football fans with that conclusion.

And yet...no one took you. And no one ever will. Here's one of your Law "Professors"....http://joemygod.blogspot.com/search/label/Matt%20Barber . My personal favorite Liberty moment...when your Law School Professor celebrates a man (Scott Lively) who advocates throwing Gay people into prison for LIFE for the crime of existing and who also is a certified Holocaust Revisionist. When you're done dealing with Matt Barber, we can talk about Mr. Staver, the dean of your Law School.

And then there is the questionable comments of your founder. And the fact that his son is now the chancellor. Serious universities don't have dynastic succession.

Teletubbies make kids Gay, per Liberty University. Abortion caused 9-11 per Liberty University. I could go on for days. Outside of extreme anti-Gay political/religious circles, no one wants you.

You used a political anti-Gay speech as the forum to announce your intention to seek (and fail) FBS membership. Don't claim that its only about the football for Liberty.

I'm not pushing for Liberty to be a member of any conference and frankly don't care what their athletic program does.

I wouldn't care if they joined the SBC, SEC, WAC, or any other conference.

However, something doesn't make sense in all of this.

How could Cal Berkley, with its ultra-extreme liberalism in the 60s/70s, could be a member of the Pac 8/10 at that time, but Liberty, with its conservatism can't be a member of the SunBelt today?

(07-24-2012 11:36 PM)oldtiger Wrote:  I'm not pushing for Liberty to be a member of any conference and frankly don't care what their athletic program does.

I wouldn't care if they joined the SBC, SEC, WAC, or any other conference.

However, something doesn't make sense in all of this.

How could Cal Berkley, with its ultra-extreme liberalism in the 60s/70s, could be a member of the Pac 8/10 at that time, but Liberty, with its conservatism can't be a member of the SunBelt today?

Oldtiger made my answer for me. I am not pimping Liberty to any conference, and really have no dog, nor care, in the fight. However, the hypocrisy of animosity for a Christian university in not nearly met with a similar animosity by those institutions supporting a diammetrically-opposed viewpoint. Fair and balanced.

And give me time and I will find an example of job discrimination that you seek. And Liberty is a PRIVATE institution.

(07-24-2012 11:52 PM)ODUsmitty Wrote:  

(07-24-2012 11:36 PM)oldtiger Wrote:  I'm not pushing for Liberty to be a member of any conference and frankly don't care what their athletic program does.

I wouldn't care if they joined the SBC, SEC, WAC, or any other conference.

However, something doesn't make sense in all of this.

How could Cal Berkley, with its ultra-extreme liberalism in the 60s/70s, could be a member of the Pac 8/10 at that time, but Liberty, with its conservatism can't be a member of the SunBelt today?

Oldtiger made my answer for me. I am not pimping Liberty to any conference, and really have no dog, nor care, in the fight. However, the hypocrisy of animosity for a Christian university in not nearly met with a similar animosity by those institutions supporting a diammetrically-opposed viewpoint. Fair and balanced.

And give me time and I will find an example of job discrimination that you seek. And Liberty is a PRIVATE institution.

Christians do work at Berkeley. Gays cannot at Liberty. Neither can athiests. Neither can Muslims.

Liberty is a private school, supported by taxpayer dollars and subsidies.

(07-22-2012 05:32 PM)Whiteboard3 Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 04:55 PM)PirateJeff Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 03:41 PM)Whiteboard3 Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 02:18 PM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  

(07-22-2012 10:53 AM)HerdZoned Wrote:  If I were a IA conference I wouldn't touch Liberty University with a 10 foot pole. The school has been and is way to controversial.

It is a private Christian University, I guess to "some" that's controversial? I have friends that attended the school, they are some of the nicest people I've ever met. It's a awesome University. First class "everything". Top notch facilities, totally committed to athletics. An all star "Christian" coaching staff (Turner Gill, Carl Torbush, Mike Minter etc.). You guys be sure to watch for Liberty grad, former Flames Sports Network member Samantha Steele on ESPN this season.

Samantha Steele Replaces Erin Andrews ESPN

http://www.libertyflames.com/index.cfm?P...41&TeamID=

I think you miss the point. I myself am a Christian, and I definitely respect a lot of what happens up at Liberty. The problem comes when Liberty takes an outspoken opinion about a social issue, like gay marriage. These conferences have so much on the line in TV money, that the thought of offending someone is quite scary.

If you stand for ANYTHING (religious, politicial, social) in life you will offend someone...that is a dumb reason not to consider a quality program (quality based on informaiton in the comment)for conference inclusion...by the way I know absolutely nothing about Liberty except they are located in VA.

Well PirateJeff, that's kind of my point. Most Universities don't take a political/social/religious stance for the simple reason that it's not in a universities best interest to be controversial. For instance: ECU did not pick a side in the amendment one debate. Liberty is quite simply very outspoken about their Conservative Christian beliefs.

Actually, ECU is very outspoken in NC about rural issues especially those involving quality of life and has been very active in promoting eastern NC and fighting for rural areas of our entire state. NC has been a battleground of rural verses urban for the last 35 to 40 years. Our University has a proud history of fighting for the rural citizens of NC especially eastern NC. Yes, ECU does take a side in many issues in NC especially funding and providing quality healthcare and other services to rural NC...our great leader Leo Jenkins in the 1970's almost cause the eastern counties of the state to create there own state....you will hear EC fans joke of the 51st state there is some history there involving ECU obtaining our med school. ECU does have a political position and it usually rubs the urban parts of the state the wrong way. I do agree the university does not take sides on social issues since our mission is "to serve" and not to promote a social agenda; I doubt that is Liberty's mission so I would expect them to react differently.

IM beginning to think Tom is just an activist who has issues with what the Catholics & Protestants scriptures say. Hats off to ND, LU and BYU for not conforming. The NCAA needs a few schools like that.

(07-25-2012 05:43 AM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  I beginning to think Tom is just an activist who has issues with what the Catholics & Protestants scriptures say. Hats off to ND, LU and BYU for not conforming. The NCAA needs a few schools like that.

Being antidiscrimination does not make someone antichristian.

In life, schools like ND, LU and BYU all believe in a persons freewill to choose which team to play for. Obviously Tom and I are not on the same team "today" ..... but I use to be on the same one. As I got older and thought about it, I began to see it coach Minter's way. I guess I'll find out if IM on the correct sideline when my clock hits 0:00. Nuff said. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69s5faz2FsA

Looking forward to some great games this season. PirateJeff, I pull for the Pirates also! A good friend played for them a few years back. Here's to a great season!

(07-25-2012 05:43 AM)Liberty Fan Wrote:  IM beginning to think Tom is just an activist who has issues with what the Catholics & Protestants scriptures say. Hats off to ND, LU and BYU for not conforming. The NCAA needs a few schools like that.

Please do not lump an excellent and tolerant organization like Notre Dame with Liberty!!! This is unacceptable by any standards -- liberal, conservative, or otherwise.