Does PSU, as an agency of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, enjoy sovereign immunity from the sort of civil lawsuits that might spin out of the Sandusky situation?

Dan Wetzel was on Jim Rome and made an interesting statement about Paterno's legacy. Essentially he said that college football coaches are put on a pedestal and we are to hold them in too high regard (singling out Paterno at this point) because of all that they do for their student athletes. But he correctly said if most of these players had not played for Penn State they would have played at Michigan or an equivalent school and they would have turned out just fine, because of the caliber of student athlete they are.

ESPN's Joe Schad's tweet: "NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA manual."

(07-12-2012 10:53 AM)TripleA Wrote:  And you're going to say b/c they had not been caught covering up for any time BEFORE those 14 years, that they should not get the death penalty?

No, the argument is that b/c the rules don't say that the death penalty applies, then it doesn't apply.

Let's say that ESPN decided that the Sandusky scandal was so heinous that they wouldn't broadcast Penn State or Big Ten games, and were terminating the contract. (Also imagine that the Big Ten contract would be worth less today than when it was signed.) The Big Ten and Penn STate would sue and win, because the ESPN-Big Ten contract doesn't let ESPN do that, even if you could make a moral case for it.

You can't always just say that because something is just and morally appropriate, that you have the legal power to do it.

Quote:EDIT: Not to mention, in Post #37, it is confirmed that the repeat violator phrase is NOT exclusive to the death penalty, but rather, is just ONE reason that the death penalty could be applied. In other words, you do not have to be a repeat violator to get the death penalty.

I just wanted that repeated. The bylaw says "OR" repeat violator. And this is the mother of all "lack of institutional control" issues.

(07-12-2012 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 09:19 AM)Comet Wrote:  I'm very interested to see what the NCAA does.

The death penalty is only for repeat violators. PSU football has zero major violations in the NCAA infractions database. None.

That was my opinion too. But after what came out today, if ever there is a time for an exception, this is it.

Further evidence of the lack of repeat offender status for the death penalty is in the cases of Morehouse College Soccer in 2003 and MacMurray College's Tennis program.

Both were received the death penalty or death penalty like sentences for "a complete failure" to keep the program in compliance.

I think PSU has what can be easily described as "a complete failure" to keep the program in compliance.

wiki article on the death penalty: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty_%28NCAA%29
USAToday article on Morehouse College's infractions: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2...ouse_x.htm
USAToday article on MacMurray College's infractions: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/o...alty_x.htm

(07-12-2012 11:45 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  ESPN's Joe Schad's tweet: "NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA manual."

I just cannot comprehend that. I really can't. If covering up a heinous crime to protect your football program is not a lack of control then I guess I don't know what is.

Either that or the manual needs to be revised/updated.

(07-12-2012 11:45 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  ESPN's Joe Schad's tweet: "NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA manual."

Please read all of Buckner's TL from his Twitter account:

Quote:Buckner Law Firm ‏@mbucknerlaw
The Freeh Report does demonstrate Penn State exhibited a lack of institutional control as it is generally understood and defined.

The NCAA Manual definition of institutional control does not address the type of activity (or non-activity) seen in the Penn State case.

Historically, NCAA stepped in cases involving criminal violations only when it is directly tied to an infractions of NCAA rules--see Baylor.

NCAA could set new precedent with PSU case, but member schools should pass expanded institutional control rule to cover this conduct.

Lack of institutional control must have nexus with underlying violations of NCAA rules.

For example, taking street drugs is criminal and NCAA violation, but sexual assault is criminal act but not addressed in NCAA Manual.

Of course, if NCAA determines PSU violated established rules during period, then it could open up a lack of institutional control violation.

So in his opinion, there is LOIC, but it has to stem from something within the NCAA rules. Read the letter from the NCAA to PSU (I posted the link earlier) where it outlines certain issues regarding ethics violations and student welfare. Also consider the Freeh report describes the PSU compliance office as poorly organized and understaffed, which also could be viewed by the NCAA as a violation. There's probably some more digging to be done (and the criminal cases against Curley and Schultz should be able to provide some of that material), but any sort of NCAA issue uncovered would almost guarantee NCAA sanctions at this point, if those ethics, welfare, and compliance issues aren't already enough.

(07-12-2012 11:57 AM)bearcatfan Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 11:45 AM)KnightLight Wrote:  ESPN's Joe Schad's tweet: "NCAA expert attorney Michael Buckner read Freeh Report and said it does not show lack of institutional control as defined by NCAA manual."

I just cannot comprehend that. I really can't. If covering up a heinous crime to protect your football program is not a lack of control then I guess I don't know what is.

Either that or the manual needs to be revised/updated.

Obviously its when you buy a recruit a value meal at mcdonalds and don't report it. This is just kids getting raped after all.

(07-03-2012 06:00 AM)brista21 Wrote:  Should they get the Death Penalty for the largest, most extreme lack of institutional control ever displayed? I think they should. Discuss. What would be a more fitting punishment?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

Yes, the bastards deserve it! I watch the Freeh press conference today. PSU and Joe patero are all dirt bags!

(07-12-2012 11:51 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 10:53 AM)TripleA Wrote:  And you're going to say b/c they had not been caught covering up for any time BEFORE those 14 years, that they should not get the death penalty?

No, the argument is that b/c the rules don't say that the death penalty applies, then it doesn't apply.

Let's say that ESPN decided that the Sandusky scandal was so heinous that they wouldn't broadcast Penn State or Big Ten games, and were terminating the contract. (Also imagine that the Big Ten contract would be worth less today than when it was signed.) The Big Ten and Penn STate would sue and win, because the ESPN-Big Ten contract doesn't let ESPN do that, even if you could make a moral case for it.

You can't always just say that because something is just and morally appropriate, that you have the legal power to do it.

Quote:EDIT: Not to mention, in Post #37, it is confirmed that the repeat violator phrase is NOT exclusive to the death penalty, but rather, is just ONE reason that the death penalty could be applied. In other words, you do not have to be a repeat violator to get the death penalty.

I just wanted that repeated. The bylaw says "OR" repeat violator. And this is the mother of all "lack of institutional control" issues.

I disagree so much that it's useless to debate it any further.

Hypothetically , if a 1 year ban of the program came down from wherever , would it be in time for the 2012 season or we looking more like 2013 and/or beyond ? I image the sure logistics and the schedules being set along with the speed of the way these things go , its safe to say, regardless, football will be played in (not-so) Happy Valley in 2012

(07-12-2012 12:27 PM)Bearcat2012 Wrote:  Hypothetically , if a 1 year ban of the program came down from wherever , would it be in time for the 2012 season or we looking more like 2013 and/or beyond ? I image the sure logistics and the schedules being set along with the speed of the way these things go , its safe to say, regardless, football will be played in (not-so) Happy Valley in 2012

Considering that the official NCAA stance is "we're still waiting to see the response to the letter we sent PSU in November before we take any action," I can almost guarantee any investigation, let alone any sanction, will not be completed this calendar year. This year is set, but next year maybe. My guess would be for 2014.

(07-12-2012 12:45 PM)CommuterBob Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 12:27 PM)Bearcat2012 Wrote:  Hypothetically , if a 1 year ban of the program came down from wherever , would it be in time for the 2012 season or we looking more like 2013 and/or beyond ? I image the sure logistics and the schedules being set along with the speed of the way these things go , its safe to say, regardless, football will be played in (not-so) Happy Valley in 2012

Considering that the official NCAA stance is "we're still waiting to see the response to the letter we sent PSU in November before we take any action," I can almost guarantee any investigation, let alone any sanction, will not be completed this calendar year. This year is set, but next year maybe. My guess would be for 2014.

Then I hope the Department of Education or some other government entity steps in before then. What a joke.

It's nauseating to read the Penn State message boards today. They STILL don't get it.

(07-12-2012 02:43 PM)CD11 Wrote:  It's nauseating to read the Penn State message boards today. They STILL don't get it.

I read about 3 posts, all of which defended the university, and I just couldn't go any further. It's surreal. Those people have their priorities hopelessly twisted. The university condoned, turned a blind eye to, covered up and aided child molesting FOR FOURTEEN YEARS, at least.

And if I hear one more person say how many good things Paterno did at Penn State, or complain about how hard it will be for Penn State to recruit now, and that's punishment enough, I will jump through my computer or TV and strangle them. Starting with Kirk Herbstreit.

(07-12-2012 02:55 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 02:43 PM)CD11 Wrote:  It's nauseating to read the Penn State message boards today. They STILL don't get it.

I read about 3 posts, all of which defended the university, and I just couldn't go any further. It's surreal. Those people have their priorities hopelessly twisted. The university condoned, turned a blind eye to, covered up and aided child molesting FOR FOURTEEN YEARS, at least.

And if I hear one more person say how many good things Paterno did at Penn State, or complain about how hard it will be for Penn State to recruit now, and that's punishment enough, I will jump through my computer or TV and strangle them. Starting with Kirk Herbstreit.

It's on like Donkey Kong!

Time for Penn St to get the death penalty. In many ways, this is worse than the Miami fiasco. Penn St deserves the death penalty. Now we will wait to see if NCAA has the balls to implement it.

Football is not higher priority than human lives. Penn St needs to go down hard.

(07-12-2012 09:42 AM)Comet Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 09:30 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 09:19 AM)Comet Wrote:  I'm very interested to see what the NCAA does.

The death penalty is only for repeat violators. PSU football has zero major violations in the NCAA infractions database. None.

I'm sure Sandusky repeatedly violated boys under the aegis of PSU. But w/e, technicalities are awesome.

Not only that, but to me it does not matter if they had no priors if you will. There is nothing more despicable to me than children being molested by Adults...NOTHING (and I even include murder although it is a close second.). Just ask the most despicable of people, convicts, who they loath more.

Because this is just about the worst incident at a University that we know of that was intentionally covered up, then they should get the death penalty, and failure by the NCAA to not act on this is a complete mockery. Just my 2 cents.

(07-12-2012 03:02 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  Time for Penn St to get the death penalty. In many every way, this is worse than the Miami fiasco. Penn St deserves the death penalty. Now we will wait to see if NCAA has the balls to implement it.

Football is not higher priority than human lives. Penn St needs to go down hard.

FIFY