(07-02-2012 10:17 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-01-2012 07:12 PM)attackfrog Wrote:  

(07-01-2012 07:01 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(07-01-2012 01:57 AM)attackfrog Wrote:  The Big East needed a viable WAC for a western football only division. The poeple on this board figured that out long ago. The WAC's demise was seen as a real posibilty last year. It really wouldnt have taken alot during last falls expansion planning to write in the contracts that both SDSU and Boise would place thier sports in the WAC.

the problem with this theory is that last year, the WAC was trying to remain viable as an all-sports conference, which is why neither neither BSU nor SDSU could pursue the WAC at that time. Sam reason Hawaii had to go to the Big West and pay them to take them, instead of staying in the WAC when moving to the MWC for football. Only recently have they accepted that they will be a non-football conference, and thus able to add Big East football teams.

I believe Boise already had an aggeement in place with the WAC prior to the Big East pressor. Plus, the WAC had already accepted other olympic sports only members like UT-Arlington. Hawaii went to the Big West because it was much cheaper and the travel was far more limited than attempting to play olympic sports in the WAC. Remember, the MW tv contract isnt a whole lot more than the WAC contract. Moving to the MW and the Big West increased the tv income, cut costs, and made the move even more attractive to Hawaii.

Last fall it was already pretty easy to see that the WAC had no chance to survive as a football conference once the Big East took the MW teams. Everyone knew the conference was going to lose teams to both the MW and CUSA reloaded with WAC and Sunbelt teams. The WAC's only senario to stay viable in football was for the Alliance full merger model to succeed and for the Alliance to then stand pat at 16. Once that failed, the WAC was toast as a football conference. Thier only option was to survive as an olympic conference---which is why they agreed to take Boise and would have welcomed SDSU as well. Had that occurred, UT-Arlington may have also stayed.

It was (and still is) a tough situation. The WAC has suffered from an exodus like one of those bank runs during the Depression - once a handful of people pulled out, there was then a panic for the exits. Also, it was unrealistic for San Diego State to ever viably consider the WAC. The "new" WAC is worse competitively than the Big West in most sports (particularly ones that important to California-based schools such as baseball, softball and volleyball) and exponentially higher in travel costs and travel time. As much as we'd like to think that San Diego State should be tied to Boise State, it wasn't even close regarding how much better the Big West is for SDSU compared to the WAC.

I agree that the WAC was a riskier proposition than the Big West. However, the SDSU's move to the Big East was absolutly tied to Boise. I doubt the Big East even goes that far west if Boise wasnt in the picture. We know that SDSU was still interested in the Big East even had Boise backed out. What we never have heard is if the Big East was still interested in SDSU if Boise had backed out. Frank, it possible they could be tied together closer than you might believe. If thats the case, then SDSU may indeed have to consider the WAC as the only way to save its bid to the Big East should Boise's Big West vote end in rejection.

(07-02-2012 10:31 AM)attackfrog Wrote:  I agree that the WAC was a riskier proposition than the Big West. However, the SDSU's move to the Big East was absolutly tied to Boise. I doubt the Big East even goes that far west if Boise wasnt in the picture. We know that SDSU was still interested in the Big East even had Boise backed out. What we never have heard is if the Big East was still interested in SDSU if Boise had backed out. Frank, it possible they could be tied together closer than you might believe. If thats the case, then SDSU may indeed have to consider the WAC as the only way to save its bid to the Big East should Boise's Big West vote end in rejection.

That's possible, but San Diego State can only do so much here as of today. We don't even know if the WAC is going to even exist as a conference at all in a year. So, asking SDSU to leave a stable conference where it can take a bus to almost every other school in order to join a worse conference competitively that's more expensive and may not even exist is something that I can't imagine would get a sniff past the SDSU's board of trustees and California politicians (even if the athletic department is willing to do it).

Now, I do think that there was a smarter way to do this. To the extent that SDSU and Boise State are tied together, they should have applied to the Big West *together* from the very beginning. The fact that SDSU entered first basically removed everyone's leverage. Realistically, it is now impossible for anyone with a fiduciary responsibility to the SDSU to withdraw from the Big West and go to the WAC. That's just athletic suicide at this point for SDSU. Meanwhile, as much money as the Big East might want to throw out there, you also can't force another conference to admit a member that it doesn't really want. It's a mess.

(07-02-2012 10:45 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-02-2012 10:31 AM)attackfrog Wrote:  I agree that the WAC was a riskier proposition than the Big West. However, the SDSU's move to the Big East was absolutly tied to Boise. I doubt the Big East even goes that far west if Boise wasnt in the picture. We know that SDSU was still interested in the Big East even had Boise backed out. What we never have heard is if the Big East was still interested in SDSU if Boise had backed out. Frank, it possible they could be tied together closer than you might believe. If thats the case, then SDSU may indeed have to consider the WAC as the only way to save its bid to the Big East should Boise's Big West vote end in rejection.

That's possible, but San Diego State can only do so much here as of today. We don't even know if the WAC is going to even exist as a conference at all in a year. So, asking SDSU to leave a stable conference where it can take a bus to almost every other school in order to join a worse conference competitively that's more expensive and may not even exist is something that I can't imagine would get a sniff past the SDSU's board of trustees and California politicians (even if the athletic department is willing to do it).

Now, I do think that there was a smarter way to do this. To the extent that SDSU and Boise State are tied together, they should have applied to the Big West *together* from the very beginning. The fact that SDSU entered first basically removed everyone's leverage. Realistically, it is now impossible for anyone with a fiduciary responsibility to the SDSU to withdraw from the Big West and go to the WAC. That's just athletic suicide at this point for SDSU. Meanwhile, as much money as the Big East might want to throw out there, you also can't force another conference to admit a member that it doesn't really want. It's a mess.

I agree there. It is a mess--and I like the idea of SDSU and Boise applying to the Big West as a package deal.

I have said multiple times that I believe the western expansion was a great strategy for the Big East, buts its execution was poorly done. The Big East had a vested interest in the western teams finding solid homes for their olympic sports and should have coordinated the efforts of its western members to prevent this situation. The ad hoc everyone for themselves model was not a great idea.

Personally, I believe the Big East should have channeled SDSU and Boise to the WAC because the Big East will need a viable housng mechanism for the olympic sports of any future additional western members. Without that viable olympic home, future additions become much more complicated and the field of realistic applicants shrinks. The WAC could have easily become that home. Bottom line, it was in the long term interest of the Big East and its western "football-only" members to make future western expansion as easy as possible by preserving that western "olympic home". At this point, I just hope the Big West works out for Boise.

(07-02-2012 10:45 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-02-2012 10:31 AM)attackfrog Wrote:  I agree that the WAC was a riskier proposition than the Big West. However, the SDSU's move to the Big East was absolutly tied to Boise. I doubt the Big East even goes that far west if Boise wasnt in the picture. We know that SDSU was still interested in the Big East even had Boise backed out. What we never have heard is if the Big East was still interested in SDSU if Boise had backed out. Frank, it possible they could be tied together closer than you might believe. If thats the case, then SDSU may indeed have to consider the WAC as the only way to save its bid to the Big East should Boise's Big West vote end in rejection.

That's possible, but San Diego State can only do so much here as of today. We don't even know if the WAC is going to even exist as a conference at all in a year. So, asking SDSU to leave a stable conference where it can take a bus to almost every other school in order to join a worse conference competitively that's more expensive and may not even exist is something that I can't imagine would get a sniff past the SDSU's board of trustees and California politicians (even if the athletic department is willing to do it).

Now, I do think that there was a smarter way to do this. To the extent that SDSU and Boise State are tied together, they should have applied to the Big West *together* from the very beginning. The fact that SDSU entered first basically removed everyone's leverage. Realistically, it is now impossible for anyone with a fiduciary responsibility to the SDSU to withdraw from the Big West and go to the WAC. That's just athletic suicide at this point for SDSU. Meanwhile, as much money as the Big East might want to throw out there, you also can't force another conference to admit a member that it doesn't really want. It's a mess.

I think they did at least inquire at the same time, but they certainly didn't act in concert. If they had, then this mess might have been avoided. I think at the time, Boise felt the WAC was in a better state (they at least still had a commish without an interim tag) and closer geographically. They talked to the Big West, but Boise felt the opportunity in the WAC was better for them, and they had no idea the MWC was planning a WAC raid. Then the dominoes fell and Boise is left scrambling. If the MWC and CUSA merged as planned when Boise signed with the Big East, then the WAC was only in need of one more football school. Now we know that was a foolish move, but hindsight is often 20/20.

(07-02-2012 10:58 AM)attackfrog Wrote:  Personally, I believe the Big East should have channeled SDSU and Boise to the WAC because the Big East will need a viable housng mechanism for the olympic sports of any future additional western members. Without that viable olympic home, future additions become much more complicated and the field of realistic applicants shrinks. The WAC could have easily become that home. Bottom line, it was in the long term interest of the Big East and its western "football-only" members to make future western expansion as easy as possible by preserving that western "olympic home". At this point, I just hope the Big West works out for Boise.

But see, now you are blaming the Big East for something that the schools should have done. The Big East is certainly not perfect, as we can all attest, but as a whole the league gets blamed an awful lot for basically not protecting its schools against their own stupidity.

(07-02-2012 10:45 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(07-02-2012 10:31 AM)attackfrog Wrote:  I agree that the WAC was a riskier proposition than the Big West. However, the SDSU's move to the Big East was absolutly tied to Boise. I doubt the Big East even goes that far west if Boise wasnt in the picture. We know that SDSU was still interested in the Big East even had Boise backed out. What we never have heard is if the Big East was still interested in SDSU if Boise had backed out. Frank, it possible they could be tied together closer than you might believe. If thats the case, then SDSU may indeed have to consider the WAC as the only way to save its bid to the Big East should Boise's Big West vote end in rejection.

That's possible, but San Diego State can only do so much here as of today. We don't even know if the WAC is going to even exist as a conference at all in a year. So, asking SDSU to leave a stable conference where it can take a bus to almost every other school in order to join a worse conference competitively that's more expensive and may not even exist is something that I can't imagine would get a sniff past the SDSU's board of trustees and California politicians (even if the athletic department is willing to do it).

Now, I do think that there was a smarter way to do this. To the extent that SDSU and Boise State are tied together, they should have applied to the Big West *together* from the very beginning. The fact that SDSU entered first basically removed everyone's leverage. Realistically, it is now impossible for anyone with a fiduciary responsibility to the SDSU to withdraw from the Big West and go to the WAC. That's just athletic suicide at this point for SDSU. Meanwhile, as much money as the Big East might want to throw out there, you also can't force another conference to admit a member that it doesn't really want. It's a mess.

SDSU announced the Big East first and then the next week announced the Big West - I think we can strongly infer that SDSU was trying to help Boise then, otherwise SDSU would have just rubber stamped the Big West the same day. Boise tried the WAC then instead of negotiating out the details 7 months ago.

Let us all consider that the Big West commish said during that two weeks when sdsu's name popped up and sdsu accepted the big east bid, that 12 was the number he wanted to get to (they had 11 with SDSU - Pacific was still there) - there was certainly some hints or momentum for SDSU and Boise going to the big west together - why that didn't happen is anyone's guess, but it sure seems the issue here continues to be boise/big east buying their way into the big west

Refusing to pay the price to get into the Big West isn't going to make the WAC magically work with or without SDSU. There are only 3 D1-ish teams left for the MWC if they ever want to get to 12: Idaho, NMSU, and Texas State and two of them are in the WAC, one might drop down to 1aa. Boise and the big east need to split the travel costs or negotiate a team for number 14 that the big west would take that like SDSU wouldn't have to pay a red cent, and that is likely Fresno or UNLV

I think our Olympic sports should play in the same conference, just not the BW. I don't think most people understand how tiny and insignificant those gymnasiums are until you actually see them. It's beyond ridiculous in my opinion.

(07-02-2012 02:20 PM)monty Wrote:  Refusing to pay the price to get into the Big West isn't going to make the WAC magically work with or without SDSU. There are only 3 D1-ish teams left for the MWC if they ever want to get to 12: Idaho, NMSU, and Texas State and two of them are in the WAC, one might drop down to 1aa. Boise and the big east need to split the travel costs or negotiate a team for number 14 that the big west would take that like SDSU wouldn't have to pay a red cent, and that is likely Fresno or UNLV

If the BE would play it's hand and add either one for leverage as its 14th team, the BW deal would be done. The BW has long coveted both SDSU and Fresno. In the end it will probably be Fresno added to the BE anyway when both BYU and AF say no again. The BW commish said that if Boise State is added they would need to add one more to balance the conference.

Karl Benson did invite San Diego State to return basketball and other sports to the WAC last fall at the same time as Boise State but the Aztecs decided to go to the Big West instead. Things would have worked out much better for everyone if they had simply taken Benson's offer and none of this stupid drama would be taking place right now.