I hate to read all of the arguementative threads without having at least one positive thread in the spin room, so here's the thread to REMAIN POSITIVE about what you and I should do to move us foward.


My suggestions:

- Electric Motorcycles, a little expensive still ($20k) but the wave of the future for certain.

- Support Green Energy vigourously that is not gov't supported. See above.

- Support every pinch possible, yet help others.

- Share FACTUAL current events with our co-workers

- vote out all Congressmen and Senators over 2 terms in.

- grow gardens appropriate for space to reduce food demand/costs

- Buy ethanol free gas (it saves taxes)

- But American OWNED cars (Ford or GM). Chrysler is no longer in that list.


God Bless.

I like this guy. Good list.

meh.

Buy whatever you think is best for yourself. I'm not going to tell you what that is. You're an adult. Take some responsibility.

After a night of some fun, that ended up being a half decent post... yet few replies.

Raider, my point was not to tell people what to do - it was that most people don't consider this stuff.

More home grown food = less demand = lower grocery bills.
Less ethanol put in gas = less corn demand = lower grocery bills.
Lower grocery bills = more money to spend on other necessities.

None of his ideas are bad and are all things that people can and probably should do without being told. Just because something is a "liberal ideal" doesn't make it bad, as long as the government isn't forcing us to do it. I love the idea of green energy, I just don't want the government telling me to drive a Prius, if I want to drive one I will.

(06-16-2012 12:16 AM)OLD DIRTY Wrote:  I hate to read all of the arguementative threads without having at least one positive thread in the spin room, so here's the thread to REMAIN POSITIVE about what you and I should do to move us foward.


My suggestions:

- Electric Motorcycles, a little expensive still ($20k) but the wave of the future for certain.

- Support Green Energy vigourously that is not gov't supported. See above.

- Support every pinch possible, yet help others.

- Share FACTUAL current events with our co-workers

- vote out all Congressmen and Senators over 2 terms in.

- grow gardens appropriate for space to reduce food demand/costs

- Buy ethanol free gas (it saves taxes)

- But American OWNED cars (Ford or GM). Chrysler is no longer in that list.


God Bless.

Some good points. I would point out though that buy American does not mean that you have to buy from companies incorporated in America only. Honda and Toyota have plants manufacturing cars in the U.S., and their cars have on average more components made in the U.S.A. than GM or Ford cars. I agree with your ideas on ethanol and green energy (ethanol is a subset of green energy in general). Basically, market based solutions will be the only solutions that will truly make green energy viable. When the gov't miscalculates and invests billions into the wrong technologies, then everyone suffers. Gov't involvement can squelch true innovations that are not favored by the gov't, and that hurts consumers down the road.

(06-18-2012 10:08 AM)miko33 Wrote:  Some good points. I would point out though that buy American does not mean that you have to buy from companies incorporated in America only. Honda and Toyota have plants manufacturing cars in the U.S., and their cars have on average more components made in the U.S.A. than GM or Ford cars. I agree with your ideas on ethanol and green energy (ethanol is a subset of green energy in general). Basically, market based solutions will be the only solutions that will truly make green energy viable. When the gov't miscalculates and invests billions into the wrong technologies, then everyone suffers. Gov't involvement can squelch true innovations that are not favored by the gov't, and that hurts consumers down the road.

Appreciated.

I was a process engineer for a Japanese automotive company who would pay 3 - 4 times the price for a Japanese machine over an identical American one. The components were often American, and the jobs were American, but every dollar they could possibly send to China while still claiming 70% American components was done... including every single employee that made over $80k was Japanese.

Don't believe the hype.

Quote:- Electric Motorcycles, a little expensive still ($20k) but the wave of the future for certain.

Zero already makes one for under $8k. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-xu/specs.php

I have some doubts about electric motorcycles' mass appeal though. Gas powered ones already get really good gas mileage (especially the less powerful ones). I haven't seen one in person...are they as quiet as electric automobiles? I think the grunt and growl of a motorcycle is a big part of the appeal for many buyers.

(06-18-2012 10:49 AM)BlazerFan11 Wrote:  

Quote:- Electric Motorcycles, a little expensive still ($20k) but the wave of the future for certain.

Zero already makes one for under $8k. http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-xu/specs.php

I have some doubts about electric motorcycles' mass appeal though. Gas powered ones already get really good gas mileage (especially the less powerful ones). I haven't seen one in person...are they as quiet as electric automobiles? I think the grunt and growl of a motorcycle is a big part of the appeal for many buyers.

Yeah, the zero bike isn't that great IMO. Kinda ugly, but serves it's purpose. The Mission R (supersport versions) are more of what I can see people buying. As fast as any 750cc sportbike, with about 150 miles of range - $20k last time I seriously checked them out.

http://ridemission.com/technology-demons...mission-r/

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/03/09/ev-...man-ttxgp/

No loud motor, they are silent... a disadvantage, but most people like loud exhaust for safety so what's safer than being able to hear what's around you?

R1 = 35 mpg
R6 = 40 mpg
SV650 = 50 mpg
Hyabusa = < 30mpg

Keep in mind a lot of m/c riders buy to be "in". That's why they ride to Sheetz and sit in the parking lot. If E-bikes are "in", they're sold and people will start riding to work.

I salivate when I see them.

I’m not lying awake at night worrying about oil. There’s plenty of extractable oil, and renewable energy will eventually supplement and replace it. Win win.

Growing enough food for your own table is a pipe dream for most Americans. You either live in high density cities without the space, or you live with enough space but don't have the time, inclination or funds to do it right. As an "urban farmer," trust me on both.

Our best bet for renewable food resources is to figure out a way to reduce corn and soybean as food products for feed animals like cows and pigs and to stop supporing ethanol subsidies. Did you know corn is now as high a $6 a bushel? Corn historically has been in the $2.50 range, adjusted...... Our food is more expensive because we're feeding it to animals and burning it for ethanol. Re.Dick.U.Lous.

Positive going forward? I look towards the day when cost effective solar panels are de rigeur in all homes and business.

(06-18-2012 03:23 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I’m not lying awake at night worrying about oil. There’s plenty of extractable oil, and renewable energy will eventually supplement and replace it. Win win.

Growing enough food for your own table is a pipe dream for most Americans. You either live in high density cities without the space, or you live with enough space but don't have the time, inclination or funds to do it right. As an "urban farmer," trust me on both.

Our best bet for renewable food resources is to figure out a way to reduce corn and soybean as food products for feed animals like cows and pigs and to stop supporing ethanol subsidies. Did you know corn is now as high a $6 a bushel? Corn historically has been in the $2.50 range, adjusted...... Our food is more expensive because we're feeding it to animals and burning it for ethanol. Re.Dick.U.Lous.

Positive going forward? I look towards the day when cost effective solar panels are de rigeur in all homes and business.

I spend $1400/year to feed 24 chickens. I see daily what ethanol is doing to food prices. I save just enough in eating them and their eggs to break even. That is a dangerous situation in the US... feed costing as much as the product, which tells me food prices are about to raise some more, potentially drastically.

Annually in a 100x100 ft (small IMO) garden I alone produce
- 600 ear of corn
- 25 gallons of strawberries
- about 400 each tomatoes, cuccumbers, squash, peppers, okra
- 2 dozen watermelons
- Enough beans to fill a pickup bed several times over.


You seem like a smart guy, but what the heck else are we suppose to feed animals other than feed? It's the design... feed them, they get bigger and you eat them. Not sure I follow.

"Looking towards to cost effect solar panels" isn't really helping anyone right out. If you don't have the time (15% of us are unemployed), inclination (get bent), space (community gardens or box gardens) or funds ($15-$50 that charity groups are out there providing and will pay itself back 10 fold) then you are part of them problem and the reason I started this thread.

Get off your butts people.

Well, my garden does supplement my grocery bill somewhat (later in the summer) unless the entire plot gets hammered by hail like it did last year. Totally destroyed. I salvaged one tomato. One.

Gave me a feeling of empathy for farmers who can see an entire year's worth of work lost in one storm. At least they can buy crop insurance.

I grow a garden for one reason - healthy food that tastes better than 3 or 4 day old produce in the store. I also know how the food was grown and what was applied to it in terms of pest management. Organic, baby.

(06-18-2012 04:31 PM)OLD DIRTY Wrote:  Annually in a 100x100 ft (small IMO) garden I alone produce
- 600 ear of corn
- 25 gallons of strawberries
- about 400 each tomatoes, cuccumbers, squash, peppers, okra
- 2 dozen watermelons
- Enough beans to fill a pickup bed several times over.

Then you are the exception. Most Americans cannot / willnot /wantnot take the opportunity to have a nice garden. Sad but true. Mine is not as large as yours, maybe 8x20. I get a lot of tomatoes and beans, but not a lot of room for anything else. And really, tomatoes and beans are so easy to grow commercially and are so cheap even in single servings that there is little $$$ in growing them on the homestead. Most people are growing for fun, not staples. I would welcome a trend reversal to see Victory Gardens in each backyard, but it is unrealistic.

(06-18-2012 04:31 PM)OLD DIRTY Wrote:  but what the heck else are we suppose to feed animals other than feed?

Rapeseed. Grasses. Winter cover. Clover. Sunflower. As long as feed corn and feed soybean are planted in lieu of consumable corn and soybean, we pay more. I'm not a feed expert but there are other options. Corn and soybean are just so easy.

(06-18-2012 04:31 PM)OLD DIRTY Wrote:  "Looking towards to cost effect solar panels" isn't really helping anyone right out.

Neither are electric motorcycles.

(06-18-2012 05:08 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  

(06-18-2012 04:31 PM)OLD DIRTY Wrote:  but what the heck else are we suppose to feed animals other than feed?

Rapeseed. Grasses. Winter cover. Clover. Sunflower. As long as feed corn and feed soybean are planted in lieu of consumable corn and soybean, we pay more. I'm not a feed expert but there are other options. Corn and soybean are just so easy.

(06-18-2012 04:31 PM)OLD DIRTY Wrote:  "Looking towards to cost effect solar panels" isn't really helping anyone right out.

Neither are electric motorcycles.

Good points on the alternative feeds, but I think they are similar to ethanol in cars - it takes 3x as much to do the job from the little bit of googling I just did. I'll check them out more, thanks man.

My favorite part about the garden is giving stuff away to people who need it. A bag of tomatoes will make people smile like you never knew. Hunters for the Hungry is another cause I'm active in when the gardens are frozen.

Buying an electric bike kinda helps right now, because the more bought initially is the lower the price for po' folk like me. Once the price is similar to gas models, I'm snatching one up! Less gas demand SHOULD equate lower gas prices for everyone else eventually, in theory.

Put me down as never again owning a Ford or GM car. If there are two or more cars that you want to choose from, why would you ever buy the one that's union made if a non union car is available? Since those guys make a lot more than a non union shop, then more of your money is going to union workers than into the components, design and safety of your car.

(06-19-2012 04:33 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Put me down as never again owning a Ford or GM car. If there are two or more cars that you want to choose from, why would you ever buy the one that's union made if a non union car is available? Since those guys make a lot more than a non union shop, then more of your money is going to union workers than into the components, design and safety of your car.

That's an uninformed opinion, but an opinion non-the-less. Congratulations. I should remind you Ford did't take a bailout so however they spend their money shouldn't matter.

You should look at Ford's IIHS ratings.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=327

(06-18-2012 03:23 PM)Lord Stanley Wrote:  I’m not lying awake at night worrying about oil. There’s plenty of extractable oil, and renewable energy will eventually supplement and replace it. Win win.

Growing enough food for your own table is a pipe dream for most Americans. You either live in high density cities without the space, or you live with enough space but don't have the time, inclination or funds to do it right. As an "urban farmer," trust me on both.

Our best bet for renewable food resources is to figure out a way to reduce corn and soybean as food products for feed animals like cows and pigs and to stop supporing ethanol subsidies. Did you know corn is now as high a $6 a bushel? Corn historically has been in the $2.50 range, adjusted...... Our food is more expensive because we're feeding it to animals and burning it for ethanol. Re.Dick.U.Lous.

Positive going forward? I look towards the day when cost effective solar panels are de rigeur in all homes and business.

A great deal of corn and soybean prices reflect the worldwide market and not just the US market. Weather conditions, economic stress, import and export tariffs all influence the price of grain. Ethanol has also greatly increased the price of corn over the years. One thing you are overlooking though is the increase in input costs to raise an acre of corn or beans. Fertilizer prices are going through the roof due to many factors, production and tranportation being the two primary ones. Equipment costs are astronomical. It's nearly impossible for farmers to make a living selling corn at $2.50 a bushel. A single bad crop due to any number of reasons can ruin a farmer or put him out of business completely.
The increasing demand for meat means that animals raised for slaughter have to be produced faster and more economically. At the current population levels growing cattle and hogs on natural pastures alone simply won't do it.
As far as ethanol goes, corn is the most abundant source, but I believe there are more efficient sources from which to produce ethanol. Algea and sugar-cane are two, yet it isn't as cost effective yet. Ethanol is another example of a green energy source that has been forced on the public by the govt before it had matured into a viable and cost effective alternative.

(06-20-2012 07:45 AM)OLD DIRTY Wrote:  

(06-19-2012 04:33 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  Put me down as never again owning a Ford or GM car. If there are two or more cars that you want to choose from, why would you ever buy the one that's union made if a non union car is available? Since those guys make a lot more than a non union shop, then more of your money is going to union workers than into the components, design and safety of your car.

That's an uninformed opinion, but an opinion non-the-less. Congratulations. I should remind you Ford did't take a bailout so however they spend their money shouldn't matter.

You should look at Ford's IIHS ratings.

http://www.iihs.org/ratings/ratingsbyseries.aspx?id=327

I own a 2008 Tacoma and my company car is a 2008 F150. Both have 50 thousand +/- miles on them. One rattles like a snake, has front end problems, burns oil, has no power, sucks up gas, the cup holder broke by itself, blows fuses when I use the lighter or power port, and is an overal POS. The other is my Tacoma which rides more like a car than a pick up and all is just bueno with it. For the full blown 4 door Tacoma with the sports and towing package my total nut was $28,000. I was told the F150 cost more.

200d F150, 72000 miles that rides like a lincoln and pulls a boat at 23mpg highway.

Stanley, if less silage is grown where will the city folk spread your "biosolids" (crap)