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Thank you for posting the chart since it has been 14 years since my retirement and pay schedules have been considerably stretched out since then. Note TWO things: #1-that the only schedule that applies to academic classroom teachers is the 9 month (180 days) schedule. 10 and 12 month schedules are for Voc Ed teachers, coaches and administrators. #2-This pay schedule applies ONLY to Jeffco since each of the state's autonomous 133 districts independently hires its own teachers and sets its own pay schedule. One would have to access each district's individual web site to find what each provides before doing any comparisons.

According to the chart, the beginning salary for a BA/BS holding new nontenured Jeffco teacher is $36,165 and over 27 years rises to $48,676 MAXIMUM, a difference of about $12,500 over the almost 3 decades. When/If the teacher earns certification at the MA/MS level (class "A" certificate), his/her salary is adjusted for the next year to the level for their year of service at that point. A teacher entering their 9th year of service with that district, for example, would get a raise from $45,923 to $51,778, about a $5,200 difference. (What is the present cost of grad school hours at a state university? That times 33 hours for the MA/MS would indicate the minimum time it will take for the teacher to "break even" on costs vs pay raise basis)

If the teacher at some point returns to grad school and takes the 33 or so grad hours to get the next step for an EDS degree (class "AA" certificate), he/she would get another raise of about $2300 per year. If the teacher then goes back to grad school for about 40 more grad hours (I don't know the requirements of that level of program because no one I know ever went that far while remaining in the classroom) and gets a DEd degree, they would be entitled to another raise of about $3,000 per year depending on their point in years of service when the degree was completed and certificate issued by the state.

Over that span of years (however many years they were able to arrange to go to school while teaching, perhaps raising a family, etc.), the teacher would have paid for about 100 graduate hours in return for about $25,900 in pay enhancements due to degrees earned and held since entering the system 27 years earlier.

Statewide lagislatively passed pay raises (if they ever happen again) would raise everyone's pay across the state by about the same amount since they are based on each district's ADA/Teacher Unit allotment which is the same for every system**. A state passed pay boost would begin with the Oct. 31st pay check of the following year unless the local district has the reserve funds to pay it early (Sept 30th) on their own "dime". The state will not reimburse a district for doing so.

** Any teachers a district hires who is not covered by a state "TU", will have to be paid out of local revenue, including any pay raises passed in Montgomery. This is where local tax revenue can make a big difference because the state does not provide "TUs" for music, art, theater, library or other "non-core" course teachers or Guidance Councelors below high school level. Almost 100 Alabama school disticts hire ZERO teachers NOT covered by a state "TU". If your or your child's school had any or all of these courses below grade 9 (elementary or middle school), it was a sign you were in a relatively wealthy school district compared to so many others in the state.

Why I have allowed myself to get drawn into this I don't know... but here goes.

- There are many jobs where the difference between a BS/BA and the MA is not very significant. Teachers are not different.
- There are many jobs where the pay difference between a MA and a professional doctorate is not significant.
- There are many jobs where the pay difference between a 2 year degree and a 4 year degree is not very significant.
- There are many jobs that are not a 40 hour work week. It is not unique to teachers.

To a great degree, people choose their profession... especially when said profession requires an undergraduate degree. Most people know what the salary is for their profession before going into it. Since people know what the salary and benefits are before choosing the career field, it doesn't seem very fair to then gripe about the salary after the fact.

On a related note - A company a friend works for is in dire need of machinists. They are looking to hire ~40 by September. They will train the new employees if necessary. Tech school grads are desired and skilled machinsts are even better. These jobs will pay 40-60K DOE, making medical and military hardware.

Brown Precision

http://www.brownprecisioninc.com/careers.html

(06-14-2012 08:36 PM)BTR Wrote:  Why I have allowed myself to get drawn into this I don't know... but here goes.

- There are many jobs where the difference between a BS/BA and the MA is not very significant. Teachers are not different.
- There are many jobs where the pay difference between a MA and a professional doctorate is not significant.
- There are many jobs where the pay difference between a 2 year degree and a 4 year degree is not very significant.
- There are many jobs that are not a 40 hour work week. It is not unique to teachers.

To a great degree, people choose their profession... especially when said profession requires an undergraduate degree. Most people know what the salary is for their profession before going into it. Since people know what the salary and benefits are before choosing the career field, it doesn't seem very fair to then gripe about the salary after the fact.

Some posters have tried to make the teacher salary issue about me, that I am complaining because I did not receive better pay. That is not my intended point at all. I am 71 and not interested in giving up my retirement to start over as a new teacher again. "Been there, done that"!

The state's political leaders and many business leaders constantly decry the number of teachers in Alabama who they feel should not have been hired or at least not granted tenure. My point in answer to that dissatisfaction is "What did you expect to happen when teachers are treated like they are by the state government and business leaders of this state. To say, "You knew you would get poorly paid when you took the job so quitcherbitchin' and shut the H*** up before we raise your insurance premiums and copays again." is hardly the attitude of people who really want THEIR kids to become Alabama's next generation of academic classroom teachers.

I retired in 1997 after 33 years and make my way on TRS and SS payments. The state has told the new teachers that they will not be as well compensated when they retire as my generation has been. Their take home pay has already been reduced and now their retirement is threatened. Is this the way to get the "Best and the Brightest" young people to make their future careers in the classrooms of Alabama? The NEWS interviewed one of the TFA kids in B'ham, and he said that he would be leaving when his "2 yr hitch" was finished to go to Law School. It will be interesting to see what percentage of TFA kids stay in any Albama schools, particularly the challenging ones they are in now.

(06-09-2012 10:37 PM)Blaze4Pres Wrote:  To be a RN, you need a bachelor's degree... with an associate's, you will be an LPN.

The $ figure for nurses is probably averaged with traveling nurses, which make about twice the going rate plus usually get a daily stipend for food/hotel/rental car expenses.

Incorrect sir. I'd wager that most RNs are ADN nurses and not BSN nurses. My mother has he associates in nursing and she's a RN. Also, that pay is waaaayyyyyyy off.

I am married to an educator, with six other educators in my extended family... we all agree that the most important factor influencing an individual child's education is the educational expectations in the child's home, regardless of the "quality" of the school or teacher. After that, then yes, the quality of the sum of all the teachers experienced from K-12 has the greatest influence on the student... that has a lot to do with the community you live in, as the socioeconomic level of a community has a great deal to do with the quality of the the teachers that community's schools attract.

I believe smaller student-to-teacher ratios, higher pay, longer school years, and less standardized testing would give quality teachers more freedom to truly teach and provide more reasons to stay in the profession. I also believe that giving administrators an easier route to booting lazy teachers would benefit all stakeholders.

I agree wholeheartedly that one of the more important factors influencing an individual child's education
is the educational expectations in the child's home.

If expenditure/student was the solution to our government education woes, we'd be at or near the top worldwide.
Our primary teacher starting pay ranks 4th, trailing only Luxemburg, Germany and Switzerland.
Our secondary teacher starting pay ranks 7th.

Conversely, in 2009 PISA scores, the U.S. ranked:
15th in reading
23rd in science (29)
31st in math (35)
sadly, this is an improvement over(2006) scores
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf



The Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) is a system of international assessments that focuses on 15-year-olds' capabilities
in reading literacy, mathematics literacy, and science literacy.

(06-17-2012 03:03 PM)oldblazer79 Wrote:  I agree wholeheartedly that one of the more important factors influencing an individual child's education
is the educational expectations in the child's home.

If expenditure/student was the solution to our government education woes, we'd be at or near the top worldwide.
Our primary teacher starting pay ranks 4th, trailing only Luxemburg, Germany and Switzerland.
Our secondary teacher starting pay ranks 7th.

Conversely, in 2009 PISA scores, the U.S. ranked:
15th in reading
23rd in science (29)
31st in math (35)
sadly, this is an improvement over(2006) scores
http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/54/12/46643496.pdf



The Program for International Student Assessment (PISA) is a system of international assessments that focuses on 15-year-olds' capabilities
in reading literacy, mathematics literacy, and science literacy.

What does the chart look like if you compare American schools ONLY to those of nations who have the same near-total local control autonomy we have. (I believe the US has the only such system in the modern industrialized world.)

bnb,
answer these questions

1) Why don't you find that information and post it?
2) What would the chart look like:
a)our test scores matched our expenditures/pupil?
b)our test scores matched our teacher pay?
c)there were no teacher unions?
3) When will the excuses end?

currently
expenditure/pupil #2

primary teacher starting pay 4th
secondary teacher starting pay 7th.

test scores
15th in reading
23rd in science
31st in math

(06-17-2012 10:10 AM)UABslant Wrote:  I am married to an educator, with six other educators in my extended family... we all agree that the most important factor influencing an individual child's education is the educational expectations in the child's home, regardless of the "quality" of the school or teacher. After that, then yes, the quality of the sum of all the teachers experienced from K-12 has the greatest influence on the student... that has a lot to do with the community you live in, as the socioeconomic level of a community has a great deal to do with the quality of the the teachers that community's schools attract.

I believe smaller student-to-teacher ratios, higher pay, longer school years, and less standardized testing would give quality teachers more freedom to truly teach and provide more reasons to stay in the profession. I also believe that giving administrators an easier route to booting lazy teachers would benefit all stakeholders.

All of your suggestions about reducing class size, longer school year (which would necessitate more pay since teachers are paid by the days they work) and more "freedom" may well help keep teachers in the profession. Right now the legislature is much more concerned about legally protecting "school-free days" than in-school days (185 "certainly" the former vs 180 "maybe" the latter).

As it is, if an adminstrator documents the "case" against an "incompetent / lazy" tenured teacher (and he/she has 3 years before tenure is a factor to do that without having to prove anything), the chances of that teacher apealling dismissal or winning if they do are between slim and none. The actual studies rather than the urban myths show this to be true. How does one make it "easier" to dismiss a tenured teacher? Do you allow a principal to simply say "Because I said so!" perhaps only to find out later in losing a million dollar law suit it was because the teacher rejected sexual exploitation? One WEHS tenured principal was fired after such charges were leveled by teachers. DOCUMENTATION is the key to firing any tenured educator at any level.

Of course, one ingredient for many of the financially poorer districts (inner-city or very rural) is the problem of replacement of the fired teacher(s). Suburban districts often have hundreds of applications for every available position. Most of the former state districts have none or less than a dozen, especially for higher math , science or technical positions. These districts have lost most of the 3 to 5 Thousand or so state teachers leaving over the last half decade where the suburban districts have lost few if any. Since the state now (since 1970s) requires a teacher to have certification in the level of school as well as the particular courses they are to teach, replacement of teachers has become more difficult for these "other than suburban" districts. They can no longer hire just "any" teacher without "any" degree or certificate and place them in "any" slot they needed to fill, a common practice in Alabama until the 1970s.

(06-18-2012 12:11 PM)oldblazer79 Wrote:  bnb,
answer these questions

1) Why don't you find that information and post it?
2) What would the chart look like:
a)our test scores matched our expenditures/pupil?
b)our test scores matched our teacher pay?
c)there were no teacher unions?
3) When will the excuses end?

currently
expenditure/pupil #2

primary teacher starting pay 4th
secondary teacher starting pay 7th.

test scores
15th in reading
23rd in science
31st in math

#1- I know the answer-NONE. The USA is the ONLY nation of the top 20 or 30 industrialized nations that operates its schools entirely on a locally autonomous basis so that a pupil is sent into the economy of the nation / world with the best education his state / district is willing to (painlessly) afford. Our nation's conservatives like to beat up on teachers and other public employees (at least those not in uniform) as not being worth what they are paid from "other people's money". Wisconsin's and Alabama's Republicans both specifically exempted uniformed public employees (Police and firefighters) from their attack on public employee organizations.

The only national investment in our public schools is #1 the National School Lunch Program without which many of our nation's kids would get no hot meals each day. #2 the vocational education acts (Smith-Lever and Smith-Hughes Acts) passed in the WWI era and #3 the Education for Exceptional Children Act which guarantees ar least a minimum program for those who need "Special education" (AL like many other states did not even recognize that these kids even existed with most funding for them being local only.) The Race to the Top funding has not earned a permanent place yet. The NCLB program offered no money but did threaten to cut off districts that it deemed not good enough.

In answer to 2c, Alabama has never had to deal with a "powerful teacher's union". Most Alabamians - as well perhaps yourself, can't easily name the head of the state's only real teacher's union, the AFT (AFL-CIO). The AEA is a union as much as the AMA, ABA, AIA, or any other professional organization is a "union". Of course, if doctors and lawyers and those others had their income levels set by the State Legislature as teachers must, they would have their own lobbyists in Montgomery who would be much better funded than those of the AEA.

Powerful union? When was the last pay raise for teachers to be voted by the state legislature? When was the desire to keep senior experienced teachers proven by voting to keep their DROP intact? When was teacher net take home income last protected by blocking state insurance increases in premiums, increased copays for both doctors and prescriptions, and when were "caps" on annual pay outs for teacher's medical insurance coverage last indexed for inflation (can you say "NEVER"). The AEA has about the same state legislative achievement record over the last decade as Milton Mc Gregor: 0-for all attempts. With a "powerful record" like that, it is no wonder it is "safe" for politicians to attack them both.

1)Canada - reading 6, math 9, science 7
Australia - reading 9, math 15, science 10
there could be more. sadly, we're 3rd among those 3. congrats on defending the status-quo

2)a, we'd be at the top of the chart
2)b, we'd probably be at/near the top, since only one country (Switzerland) above us pays their teachers more
2)c, you don't know, which is the point. And we'll never know as long as we cling to the status-quo
3) probably never

(06-09-2012 08:21 PM)LightEmUp70 Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 08:06 PM)oldblazer79 Wrote:  teachers know the pay scale before they enter the profession.
if they don't, they're a hell of a lot dumber than even I think they are.

And they work 9 months out of the year

How many teachers do you know? They work a little more than you think they do, and unlike a lot of jobs, the job isn't just done at work.

I think everybody is correct to an extent in this argument. My wife just graduated with a degree in elementary education. She has a lot of student loans. She has found it damn near impossible to find a teaching job in the Huntsville area. She is now working at Verizon making similar money to what she would make teaching. She is now going to get her MBA because even if she can find a job teaching, it isn't guaranteed for more than 1 year.

If you don't pay teachers, people aren't going to want to teach. Smaller classes help. Parents, or somebody else at home, helping are a key factor.

(06-19-2012 10:08 AM)blazers9911 Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 08:21 PM)LightEmUp70 Wrote:  

(06-09-2012 08:06 PM)oldblazer79 Wrote:  teachers know the pay scale before they enter the profession.
if they don't, they're a hell of a lot dumber than even I think they are.

And they work 9 months out of the year

How many teachers do you know? They work a little more than you think they do, and unlike a lot of jobs, the job isn't just done at work.

I think everybody is correct to an extent in this argument. My wife just graduated with a degree in elementary education. She has a lot of student loans. She has found it damn near impossible to find a teaching job in the Huntsville area. She is now working at Verizon making similar money to what she would make teaching. She is now going to get her MBA because even if she can find a job teaching, it isn't guaranteed for more than 1 year.

If you don't pay teachers, people aren't going to want to teach. Smaller classes help. Parents, or somebody else at home, helping are a key factor.

I used to tell my students that educational endevor is a 3-legged stool in that one leg is the student, one leg is his supportive parents and the third leg is the teacher / school and if any leg breaks down, the whole thing may be lost. I also liked to tell them education operates in 3 areas of learning. One is learning FACTS since every field of study has its own system of facts. The second is learning of LEARNING SKILLS to enable a student to get information on his/her own through the library, textbooks, audio-visual presentations and how to organize that information in a way to put it to use. The third is learning about YOURSELF so that you know your strengths, weaknesses, interests and potential work fields that attract you to them. Some people enjoy their work so much that they can say they never had to "work" a day in their life because they always felt good about doing their job and looked forward to doing it every day.

There are "natural" teachers just like there are "natural" athletes, artists, writers, etc. They are very few as with those others. Most have to LEARN how to teach by being trained in education classes and some even then don't do it well. If we have to depend only on the "naturals", we will only be able to staff a few schools in a state with our number of schools. Like with the TFA teachers, they have had 12 years of being taught how to teach by good teachers in their own K-12 experience. You are not likely to find very many TFA candidates coming from deprived public school backgrounds like inner city or very rural school districts. A couple dozen of them is the most a poor district can afford to enlist. Let's see how many remain after their 2 year "hitch" is up.

Your 3 stool analogy is perfect. I also think people learning about themselves is a huge problem in society today. Instead of just recognizing weaknesses, many people tend to try to cover up things they are not strong at. I think recognizing your weaknesses is a key to success in life.

My wife is not a big fan of TFA. From how she describes it, I'm really not either. What is the point of making people go to school for an education degree if people can do TFA? The education they get in their last 2 years of college is worth more than a 6 week class(or whatever it is) for somebody with no background in education, outside of being taught by other teachers. I think we may look back at some point in time and see this as being a huge mistake.

(06-20-2012 08:13 AM)blazers9911 Wrote:  Your 3 stool analogy is perfect. I also think people learning about themselves is a huge problem in society today. Instead of just recognizing weaknesses, many people tend to try to cover up things they are not strong at. I think recognizing your weaknesses is a key to success in life.

My wife is not a big fan of TFA. From how she describes it, I'm really not either. What is the point of making people go to school for an education degree if people can do TFA? The education they get in their last 2 years of college is worth more than a 6 week class(or whatever it is) for somebody with no background in education, outside of being taught by other teachers. I think we may look back at some point in time and see this as being a huge mistake.

TFA tends to use top students from various fields even though they lack specific courses in teaching. In teaching for 1/3 of a century and observing many teachers in that time, I came to the conclusion that what many teachers learned about teaching techniques in college lecture courses were used in their careers as long as "plan A" worked. When it failed, they didn't know the new methods well enough to go to a "Plan B" in the same method system. Most simply reverted to the way they were taught in their own K-12 background because it was the only method they knew in depth from 12 years of immersion in it and could make adjustment with some degree of comfort.

The TFA people often came from very good high schools so they were as well prepared as most to teach as long as what their experience was matched up well with where they were placed. Most regular teachers in Alabama did not come from these relatively strong high schools so when they have to adapt, their background may be insufficient to match their challenging situations. If their principal is no better prepared, or is too lazy or incompetent, they may teach for years until a new, more competent principal calls them down and documents them on their shortcomings.

In past years, a collegiate education student only actually went into a school room in their last semester of training for so-called "practice teaching". That is tantamount to a football player only getting on the field after studying football theory for 3 1/2 years and being expected to play like a regular. Today, many colleges of education immerse the student in class rooms as early as the sophomore year as "interns" and they work under a cooperating mentor teacher for the last 3 years. If the student is well chosen for the training program (not just who has given up on other, more financially rewarding jobs to take education as a parachute to a safe degree landing) they will get much better prepared for an educator's career than we were in the 1960s and 70s.