(05-29-2012 02:16 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 01:42 PM)3601 Wrote:  The Champs Bowl payout is NOT 3 or 4 times the payout of the Liberty Bowl.

The Champs Bowl payout is about $2.3 Million per team and the Liberty Bowl payout is about $1.5 Million per team.

If the Big East champ cannot get a better bowl tie in than the Liberty Bowl then we are going to be in trouble.

My bad. I thought the Champs Bowl was higher than that and the Liberty Bowl was lower than that. Anyway, just break it down by options according to payouts higher than the Champs Bowl:

* Rose Bowl - Set with Big Ten/Pac-12
* Sugar Bowl - Will have SEC tie-in at the very least (and possibly Champions Bowl site)
* Orange Bowl - Probably still wants ACC tie-in and then an at-large or B1G #2/SEC #2
* Fiesta Bowl - Probably wants at-larges or B1G #2/Big 12 #2
* Capital One - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that
* Cotton - Big 12/SEC - no reason to change that
* Outback - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that
* Chick-Fil-A - SEC/ACC - even if ACC loses FSU and Clemson, still likely won't change
* Alamo - Big 12/Pac-12 - definitely wants Big 12 team and this is best Pac-12 team after Rose, so likely won't change
* Insight - Big Ten/Big 12 - maybe a Pac-12 team gets swapped in for one of these, but not a Big East team
* Gator - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that

Every bowl that pays out more than the Champs Sports Bowl has a pretty compelling matchup already. Can you realistically displace a Big Ten or SEC tie-in anywhere (unless the Big Ten or SEC actually chooses to leave)? Can you realistically displace a Big 12 team in a Texas-based bowl? Those situations aren't likely, which means there aren't really many/any move-up options. Now, there are a few intriguing bowls that actually have lower payouts than the Champs, such as the Sun and Holiday Bowls.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I will repeat myself...

If the Big East champ cannot get a better bowl tie in than the Liberty Bowl then we are going to be in trouble.

Big trouble.

(05-29-2012 02:32 PM)3601 Wrote:  I'm not saying you are wrong, but I will repeat myself...

If the Big East champ cannot get a better bowl tie in than the Liberty Bowl then we are going to be in trouble.

Big trouble.

I think it's going to be better than the Liberty. Whether it can get better than the Champs Sports Bowl, though, is going to be tougher.

(05-29-2012 02:32 PM)3601 Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 02:16 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 01:42 PM)3601 Wrote:  The Champs Bowl payout is NOT 3 or 4 times the payout of the Liberty Bowl.

The Champs Bowl payout is about $2.3 Million per team and the Liberty Bowl payout is about $1.5 Million per team.

If the Big East champ cannot get a better bowl tie in than the Liberty Bowl then we are going to be in trouble.

My bad. I thought the Champs Bowl was higher than that and the Liberty Bowl was lower than that. Anyway, just break it down by options according to payouts higher than the Champs Bowl:

* Rose Bowl - Set with Big Ten/Pac-12
* Sugar Bowl - Will have SEC tie-in at the very least (and possibly Champions Bowl site)
* Orange Bowl - Probably still wants ACC tie-in and then an at-large or B1G #2/SEC #2
* Fiesta Bowl - Probably wants at-larges or B1G #2/Big 12 #2
* Capital One - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that
* Cotton - Big 12/SEC - no reason to change that
* Outback - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that
* Chick-Fil-A - SEC/ACC - even if ACC loses FSU and Clemson, still likely won't change
* Alamo - Big 12/Pac-12 - definitely wants Big 12 team and this is best Pac-12 team after Rose, so likely won't change
* Insight - Big Ten/Big 12 - maybe a Pac-12 team gets swapped in for one of these, but not a Big East team
* Gator - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that

Every bowl that pays out more than the Champs Sports Bowl has a pretty compelling matchup already. Can you realistically displace a Big Ten or SEC tie-in anywhere (unless the Big Ten or SEC actually chooses to leave)? Can you realistically displace a Big 12 team in a Texas-based bowl? Those situations aren't likely, which means there aren't really many/any move-up options. Now, there are a few intriguing bowls that actually have lower payouts than the Champs, such as the Sun and Holiday Bowls.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I will repeat myself...

If the Big East champ cannot get a better bowl tie in than the Liberty Bowl then we are going to be in trouble.

Big trouble.

You're not alone with that thought. Even if the TV contract situation ends favorably, good luck telling your respective coach that he has to recruit while telling prospective players that unless they finish top 4 their bowl cap is the Liberty.

The on the field gap will widen if the best of the Big East gets a worse bowl than SEC #7 or something, with the exception of having a top 4 finish.

It will also make it extremely difficult to retain quality coaches. Even if a school has the financial means to match an offer, coaches want big results and having a short ceiling in their current conference will cause them to leave faster than ever before.

(05-29-2012 02:16 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 01:42 PM)3601 Wrote:  The Champs Bowl payout is NOT 3 or 4 times the payout of the Liberty Bowl.

The Champs Bowl payout is about $2.3 Million per team and the Liberty Bowl payout is about $1.5 Million per team.

If the Big East champ cannot get a better bowl tie in than the Liberty Bowl then we are going to be in trouble.

My bad. I thought the Champs Bowl was higher than that and the Liberty Bowl was lower than that. Anyway, just break it down by options according to payouts higher than the Champs Bowl:

* Rose Bowl - Set with Big Ten/Pac-12
* Sugar Bowl - Will have SEC tie-in at the very least (and possibly Champions Bowl site)
* Orange Bowl - Probably still wants ACC tie-in and then an at-large or B1G #2/SEC #2
* Fiesta Bowl - Probably wants at-larges or B1G #2/Big 12 #2
* Capital One - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that
* Cotton - Big 12/SEC - no reason to change that
* Outback - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that
* Chick-Fil-A - SEC/ACC - even if ACC loses FSU and Clemson, still likely won't change
* Alamo - Big 12/Pac-12 - definitely wants Big 12 team and this is best Pac-12 team after Rose, so likely won't change
* Insight - Big Ten/Big 12 - maybe a Pac-12 team gets swapped in for one of these, but not a Big East team
* Gator - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that

Every bowl that pays out more than the Champs Sports Bowl has a pretty compelling matchup already. Can you realistically displace a Big Ten or SEC tie-in anywhere (unless the Big Ten or SEC actually chooses to leave)? Can you realistically displace a Big 12 team in a Texas-based bowl? Those situations aren't likely, which means there aren't really many/any move-up options. Now, there are a few intriguing bowls that actually have lower payouts than the Champs, such as the Sun and Holiday Bowls.

One thing I notice is the math---this is 11 bowls comprising 22 teams--not counting 2 playoff bowl destinations. Thats 26 teams. You would probably have to go 6 teams deep in the B1G, Big-12, and SEC. Then go 3 deep in the ACC and Pac just to get to 24 teams. At some point, the Big East champ has got to start looking like the prettiest fat girl when you are considering a chubby B1G-10 girl #7 and a chunky ACC #4 hiefer are your other options. Good grief, I have to hope things arern't this bad.

(05-29-2012 02:57 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 02:32 PM)3601 Wrote:  I'm not saying you are wrong, but I will repeat myself...

If the Big East champ cannot get a better bowl tie in than the Liberty Bowl then we are going to be in trouble.

Big trouble.

I think it's going to be better than the Liberty. Whether it can get better than the Champs Sports Bowl, though, is going to be tougher.

I am cautiously optimisic that the Big East champ (assuming we have no more members leave) is going to end up with a better bowl tie in than the Champs Bowl.

(05-29-2012 03:03 PM)attackfrog Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 02:16 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 01:42 PM)3601 Wrote:  The Champs Bowl payout is NOT 3 or 4 times the payout of the Liberty Bowl.

The Champs Bowl payout is about $2.3 Million per team and the Liberty Bowl payout is about $1.5 Million per team.

If the Big East champ cannot get a better bowl tie in than the Liberty Bowl then we are going to be in trouble.

My bad. I thought the Champs Bowl was higher than that and the Liberty Bowl was lower than that. Anyway, just break it down by options according to payouts higher than the Champs Bowl:

* Rose Bowl - Set with Big Ten/Pac-12
* Sugar Bowl - Will have SEC tie-in at the very least (and possibly Champions Bowl site)
* Orange Bowl - Probably still wants ACC tie-in and then an at-large or B1G #2/SEC #2
* Fiesta Bowl - Probably wants at-larges or B1G #2/Big 12 #2
* Capital One - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that
* Cotton - Big 12/SEC - no reason to change that
* Outback - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that
* Chick-Fil-A - SEC/ACC - even if ACC loses FSU and Clemson, still likely won't change
* Alamo - Big 12/Pac-12 - definitely wants Big 12 team and this is best Pac-12 team after Rose, so likely won't change
* Insight - Big Ten/Big 12 - maybe a Pac-12 team gets swapped in for one of these, but not a Big East team
* Gator - Big Ten/SEC - no reason to change that

Every bowl that pays out more than the Champs Sports Bowl has a pretty compelling matchup already. Can you realistically displace a Big Ten or SEC tie-in anywhere (unless the Big Ten or SEC actually chooses to leave)? Can you realistically displace a Big 12 team in a Texas-based bowl? Those situations aren't likely, which means there aren't really many/any move-up options. Now, there are a few intriguing bowls that actually have lower payouts than the Champs, such as the Sun and Holiday Bowls.

One thing I notice is the math---this is 11 bowls comprising 22 teams--not counting 2 playoff bowl destinations. Thats 26 teams. You would probably have to go 6 teams deep in the B1G, Big-12, and SEC. Then go 3 deep in the ACC and Pac just to get to 24 teams. At some point, the Big East champ has got to start looking like the prettiest fat girl when you are considering a chubby B1G-10 girl #7 and a chunky ACC #4 hiefer are your other options. Good grief, I have to hope things arern't this bad.

It's really TBD. If what Dodd described in the OP article comes to fruition (and I think it will), then you're only looking at 22 spots since the bowls would incorporate the semifinals. 2 to 4 of those spots might end up being at-large bids without any tie-ins, so that cuts the pool down further. There isn't quite as much fat there as one would think.

I could see the Gator going to the Big East #1. Especially if we go to 7 wins for a bowl, it's choices in the Big Ten/SEC will be limited and they might prefer to have at least one ranked team involved (which Big East #1 will more likely it be). Beyond that, if we are limiting bowls more, I suspect the Big Ten will give up its lowest Florida bowl before a few others.

This is the biggest area, IMO, where the BE is going to take a hit. Losing AQ doesn't mean much to anybody else, except us. Our champ is not getting an automatic BCS bowl berth any more.

However, all is not lost. WE will STILL have a shot at a NC, IF we have a team good enough. Think about that. The path is arguably no harder now than it ever was. That's why the big conferences are pushing for a SOS factor.

Also, it is POSSIBLE that FedEx could step up and sponsor the best bowl we can secure for our conference champ. Not saying they will, and not saying they will invest the $10M they did for OB naming rights, but they certainly have the wherewithal to significantly up the payout for a specific bowl on the second tier, and make it much more worthwhile.

And finally, we will STILL get a good BCS cut, even if not a full share, and the entire pie will at least double.

Predictions of doom and gloom often turn out to be less than some think, at first blush. And the BE teams, for the most part, were never going to beat out a mid-level SEC or B10 team for any recruits, anyway.

And we are about to get the biggest TV contract in our history.

Everything is not dark and gloomy.

(05-29-2012 04:01 PM)TripleA Wrote:  And the BE teams, for the most part, were never going to beat out a mid-level SEC or B10 team for any recruits, anyway.

That may have been the case in CUSA and I won't speak for other schools, but UofL certainly was doing that under Petrino and is doing that again under Strong. Louisville doesn't get anyone they want, but they get plenty of guys with offers from schools like Miami or schools from the SEC, and not just from UK and Vandy. We don't seem to compete with the Big 10 on many guys but the same standard applies.

(05-29-2012 05:27 PM)CollegeCard Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 04:01 PM)TripleA Wrote:  And the BE teams, for the most part, were never going to beat out a mid-level SEC or B10 team for any recruits, anyway.

That may have been the case in CUSA and I won't speak for other schools, but UofL certainly was doing that under Petrino and is doing that again under Strong. Louisville doesn't get anyone they want, but they get plenty of guys with offers from schools like Miami or schools from the SEC, and not just from UK and Vandy. We don't seem to compete with the Big 10 on many guys but the same standard applies.

That's why I said "for the most part." There are always exceptions to everything.

This "Big Four" concept is a bit overblown. Believe me, and I tend to lean toward objectivity in most instances.

The whole 16 team super conference will just never happen any time soon. Where is the PAC 12 getting four schools? Oklahoma and Kansas? Not worth it without Texas.

The B1G won't expand without ND. Even if it takes Rutgers and some ACC schools, there are still too many other decent schools to preserve the Big East/ACC in some form (including a merger).

Big 12 won't expand without a brand name like FSU, and FSU pretty much holds all the cards here. Even if 2-4 ACC schools go there, both the BE/ACC will still exist in some form on the FBS level. At worst you could have 5 super conferences but not 4. And I don't know how five major conferences would factor into a four team playoff.

What the move ensures is that the Rose/Champions bowls will get a definite bump in ratings if national championship ramifications are present, and they have positioned themselves to do exactly that.

The ratings for non-semifinal games will be no better than they are now. Now that you lessoned the pool by two teams, you won't have the intrigue of an undefeated mid major against a Goliath.

Yes the Big East needs a tie-in, but the idea that a ten win Big East champ would be slotted below a 7 win SEC team is a pretty morbid way of looking at it. I think the Orange Bowl is still very much in play at least on an every other year basis, as is the Fiesta if we can land BYU. We won't be top priorities but we will be considered. A bowl in Texas, the Pinstripe Bowl, the Gator bowl, a North Carolina bowl, are still very much on the table.

(05-29-2012 05:27 PM)CollegeCard Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 04:01 PM)TripleA Wrote:  And the BE teams, for the most part, were never going to beat out a mid-level SEC or B10 team for any recruits, anyway.

That may have been the case in CUSA and I won't speak for other schools, but UofL certainly was doing that under Petrino and is doing that again under Strong. Louisville doesn't get anyone they want, but they get plenty of guys with offers from schools like Miami or schools from the SEC, and not just from UK and Vandy. We don't seem to compete with the Big 10 on many guys but the same standard applies.

The same also applies to Rutgers...they battle head to head for many of the top guys that are also looking @ B1G programs and they do pretty well.

So you guys are saying the the BE holds its ground in FB recruiting with the B1G and the SEC? Btw, I should have said for not MANY recruits, not "any."

I haven't tracked it, just thinking that's hard to believe. I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about overall recruiting results from conference to conference. I just find that hard to imagine. I think for the top few teams in the SEC and the B1G, we would have trouble keeping up.

Not that it really matters, other than as board debate. I really don't care enough to pursue it. Just a passing thought.

(05-29-2012 10:25 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So you guys are saying the the BE holds its ground in FB recruiting with the B1G and the SEC?

I haven't tracked it, just thinking that's hard to believe. I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about overall recruiting results from conference to conference. I just find that hard to imagine.

Of the old BIG EAST members Pitt/WVU did just fine and really Rutgers holds their own...they were in some Top 25 Recruiting rankings the past couple of years.

Let just say this about Louisville...2012 4 Star recruit Keith Brown-(Army All American) had offers from Southern Cal, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, LSU, Miami, Auburn...

Under Charlie Strong Louisville has signed 3 Army All Americans the past 2 years in LB Keith Brown, LB Nick Dawson and S Gerod Holliman.

(05-29-2012 10:30 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:25 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So you guys are saying the the BE holds its ground in FB recruiting with the B1G and the SEC?

I haven't tracked it, just thinking that's hard to believe. I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about overall recruiting results from conference to conference. I just find that hard to imagine.

Of the old BIG EAST members Pitt/WVU did just fine and really Rutgers holds their own...they were in some Top 25 Recruiting rankings the past couple of years.

Let just say this about Louisville...2012 4 Star recruit Keith Brown-(Army All American) had offers from Southern Cal, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, LSU, Miami, Auburn...

Under Charlie Strong Louisville has signed 3 Army All Americans the past 2 years in LB Keith Brown, LB Nick Dawson and S Gerod Holliman.

Fine, but does that really measure up to what Florida, Georgia, Alabama, LSU, Auburn and Arkansas do on a regular basis? Or Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, etc.? Like I said, there are exceptions, and years when we can have teams crack the top 25, but that's not the same as being competitive on a regular basis.

Look, I'm not the enemy here. Just trying to be realistic. I mean, somebody needs to hold down the fort for quo's side.

(05-29-2012 10:40 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:30 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:25 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So you guys are saying the the BE holds its ground in FB recruiting with the B1G and the SEC?

I haven't tracked it, just thinking that's hard to believe. I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about overall recruiting results from conference to conference. I just find that hard to imagine.

Of the old BIG EAST members Pitt/WVU did just fine and really Rutgers holds their own...they were in some Top 25 Recruiting rankings the past couple of years.

Let just say this about Louisville...2012 4 Star recruit Keith Brown-(Army All American) had offers from Southern Cal, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, LSU, Miami, Auburn...

Under Charlie Strong Louisville has signed 3 Army All Americans the past 2 years in LB Keith Brown, LB Nick Dawson and S Gerod Holliman.

Fine, but does that really measure up to what Florida, Georgia, Alabama, LSU, Auburn and Arkansas do on a regular basis? Or Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, etc.? Like I said, there are exceptions, and years when we can have teams crack the top 25, but that's not the same as being competitive on a regular basis.

Look, I'm not the enemy here. Just trying to be realistic. I mean, somebody needs to hold down the fort for quo's side.

Like twisting the meaning what I said...lol...no...more like we get some of the top guys as well...not as many of the $EC but you get the idea...

(05-29-2012 10:42 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:40 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:30 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:25 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So you guys are saying the the BE holds its ground in FB recruiting with the B1G and the SEC?

I haven't tracked it, just thinking that's hard to believe. I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about overall recruiting results from conference to conference. I just find that hard to imagine.

Of the old BIG EAST members Pitt/WVU did just fine and really Rutgers holds their own...they were in some Top 25 Recruiting rankings the past couple of years.

Let just say this about Louisville...2012 4 Star recruit Keith Brown-(Army All American) had offers from Southern Cal, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, LSU, Miami, Auburn...

Under Charlie Strong Louisville has signed 3 Army All Americans the past 2 years in LB Keith Brown, LB Nick Dawson and S Gerod Holliman.

Fine, but does that really measure up to what Florida, Georgia, Alabama, LSU, Auburn and Arkansas do on a regular basis? Or Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, etc.? Like I said, there are exceptions, and years when we can have teams crack the top 25, but that's not the same as being competitive on a regular basis.

Look, I'm not the enemy here. Just trying to be realistic. I mean, somebody needs to hold down the fort for quo's side.

Like twisting the meaning what I said...lol...no...more like we get some of the top guys as well...not as many of the $EC but you get the idea...

I buy that, other than the twisting the meaning part. We're just talking past each other. I never meant to imply we don't get ANY. That's why I corrected it from my original post.

(05-29-2012 10:40 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:30 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:25 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So you guys are saying the the BE holds its ground in FB recruiting with the B1G and the SEC?

I haven't tracked it, just thinking that's hard to believe. I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about overall recruiting results from conference to conference. I just find that hard to imagine.

Of the old BIG EAST members Pitt/WVU did just fine and really Rutgers holds their own...they were in some Top 25 Recruiting rankings the past couple of years.

Let just say this about Louisville...2012 4 Star recruit Keith Brown-(Army All American) had offers from Southern Cal, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, LSU, Miami, Auburn...

Under Charlie Strong Louisville has signed 3 Army All Americans the past 2 years in LB Keith Brown, LB Nick Dawson and S Gerod Holliman.

Fine, but does that really measure up to what Florida, Georgia, Alabama, LSU, Auburn and Arkansas do on a regular basis? Or Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, etc.? Like I said, there are exceptions, and years when we can have teams crack the top 25, but that's not the same as being competitive on a regular basis.

Look, I'm not the enemy here. Just trying to be realistic. I mean, somebody needs to hold down the fort for quo's side.

TripleA, unless I am missing something it appears the finish line has been moved considerably so to speak. I know you mentioned that you should have chosen your words more carefully but we started with:

"And the BE teams, for the most part, were never going to beat out a mid-level SEC or B10 team for any recruits, anyway."

Now we're somehow asking if any Big East teams are beating Florida or OSU in total overall recruiting rankings. Those two measuring points are worlds apart. Of course UofL and the rest of the league is not outrecruiting the SEC and Big 10 overall.

My point is that under Petrino and under Strong UofL is very much competing against the big boys for recruits and winning some of the battles. That didn't happen under Kraggy and I think will be very difficult for any Big East coach to maintain if the glass ceiling is the Liberty or Champs Sports bowl if you aren't Top 4.

(05-29-2012 10:47 PM)CollegeCard Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:40 PM)TripleA Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:30 PM)Maize Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 10:25 PM)TripleA Wrote:  So you guys are saying the the BE holds its ground in FB recruiting with the B1G and the SEC?

I haven't tracked it, just thinking that's hard to believe. I'm not talking about exceptions. I'm talking about overall recruiting results from conference to conference. I just find that hard to imagine.

Of the old BIG EAST members Pitt/WVU did just fine and really Rutgers holds their own...they were in some Top 25 Recruiting rankings the past couple of years.

Let just say this about Louisville...2012 4 Star recruit Keith Brown-(Army All American) had offers from Southern Cal, Florida, Florida State, Alabama, LSU, Miami, Auburn...

Under Charlie Strong Louisville has signed 3 Army All Americans the past 2 years in LB Keith Brown, LB Nick Dawson and S Gerod Holliman.

Fine, but does that really measure up to what Florida, Georgia, Alabama, LSU, Auburn and Arkansas do on a regular basis? Or Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, etc.? Like I said, there are exceptions, and years when we can have teams crack the top 25, but that's not the same as being competitive on a regular basis.

Look, I'm not the enemy here. Just trying to be realistic. I mean, somebody needs to hold down the fort for quo's side.

TripleA, unless I am missing something it appears the finish line has been moved considerably so to speak. I know you mentioned that you should have chosen your words more carefully but we started with:

"And the BE teams, for the most part, were never going to beat out a mid-level SEC or B10 team for any recruits, anyway."

Now we're somehow asking if any Big East teams are beating Florida or OSU in total overall recruiting rankings. Those two measuring points are worlds apart. Of course UofL and the rest of the league is not outrecruiting the SEC and Big 10 overall.

My point is that under Petrino and under Strong UofL is very much competing against the big boys for recruits and winning some of the battles. That didn't happen under Kraggy and I think will be very difficult for any Big East coach to maintain if the glass ceiling is the Liberty or Champs Sports bowl if you aren't Top 4.

1. Couple of things...Kraggy recruited like he was @ Tulsa...that set us back 3 years...remarkable the vast increase in the baseline talent level under CCS.

2. I have a feeling we will do better then Liberty/Champs Sports Bowl...when it all said and done the Orange/Fiesta Bowl will look @ the tie-in with the BIG EAST Champ with a shot in some years with ND but still can get a Boise State as a good selling point.

Yeah, what I was thinking and what I typed the first time were different. That's why I corrected it. And I haven't given any thought to what happens with the bowl system, or the playoffs.

The idea that we can keep up with the SEC and B1G is all I"m referring to, not everybody. Just talking in general.

That's why I said, we just went down two different paths, and I don't care to go down it now, lol. We're not really disagreeing, just making different points.