(04-12-2012 12:31 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:16 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  WVU didn't have to do this, that much is certain. And when the Bevo-12 splits, Luck will be long gone and the school can't come back East looking for a seat at the table.

We wouldn't need to, but even if we did the BE would be deliriously happy to welcome WVU back into the fold, and it would do so with no questions asked.

But that's a hypothetical with little chance of ever happening because it would be the Big 12 adding BE schools if membership were needed, not the other way around.

Well it all would depend on how much money a Big XII minus UT, OU, TT and OSU would bring in. If the Big East gets a good deal in the next TV negotiation and gets a good bowl line up they might not want to make that jump. I mean after those four who do you really have thats better than whats in the nBE TV wise?

(04-12-2012 12:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:16 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:13 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  WVU did what they had to do. No need to re-argue that yet again. But had the league been proactive, and if they hadn't operated at the bare minimum # of schools for years, then WVU's immediate departure wouldn't have lead to such scheduling and logistical problems for the BE.

WVU didn't have to do this, that much is certain. And when the Bevo-12 splits, Luck will be long gone and the school can't come back East looking for a seat at the table.

Even if the Big 12 collapses down the road (and I don't think it will because the Texas need for control over even money is really the driving factor), WVU will be better off because the Big 12 will just raid the Big East further (NOT the other way around). There's this fallacy that the Big 12 collapsing or ACC getting raided means that the Big East is better off, and that's simply not true. In turn, there's a fallacy advanced by C-USA/MWC fans that they're better off if the Big East gets raided further, and that's simply not true, either. Just look at this past year: every time that a league started thinking that it could jump ahead in the pecking order (Big East over the ACC, MWC over the Big East, etc.), it got slapped back to the stone age. The pecking order has been established and no matter what Texas does, the Big 12 and ACC have poaching power over the Big East, so WVU is better off in all situations.

I agree with you that we could be raided again whether from the Big 12 or the ACC under the current contract. The new TV deal is the key here. If we can at least get ACC money and the Big 12 gets...say Florida State and Clemson to move to the Big 12, there is no reason for anyone in the Big East to then move to the ACC.

If we get better money than the ACC deal, then it is possible that they could be raided by the Big East. Money is the motivator here. Money and money alone will make the Big East not only a more stable league but also a destination...instead of a stopoff point.

Now, we need to get NBC/Comcast and Fox Sports to drive that price up and see what happens after that.

(04-12-2012 12:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:16 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:13 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  WVU did what they had to do. No need to re-argue that yet again. But had the league been proactive, and if they hadn't operated at the bare minimum # of schools for years, then WVU's immediate departure wouldn't have lead to such scheduling and logistical problems for the BE.

WVU didn't have to do this, that much is certain. And when the Bevo-12 splits, Luck will be long gone and the school can't come back East looking for a seat at the table.

Even if the Big 12 collapses down the road (and I don't think it will because the Texas need for control over even money is really the driving factor), WVU will be better off because the Big 12 will just raid the Big East further (NOT the other way around). There's this fallacy that the Big 12 collapsing or ACC getting raided means that the Big East is better off, and that's simply not true. In turn, there's a fallacy advanced by C-USA/MWC fans that they're better off if the Big East gets raided further, and that's simply not true, either. Just look at this past year: every time that a league started thinking that it could jump ahead in the pecking order (Big East over the ACC, MWC over the Big East, etc.), it got slapped back to the stone age. The pecking order has been established and no matter what Texas does, the Big 12 and ACC have poaching power over the Big East, so WVU is better off in all situations.

I think it hinges on just how much carnage there is. If the Big 12 loses say 4 schools- You have Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St, TCU, West Virginia, and Baylor- I don't see that group having much power to poach the Big East. I could easily see Kansas and Kansas St poached into the Big East(imagine that basketball group). If it's the ACC getting poached- it's going to be multiple poachers. Big 12, SEC, Big Ten. By the time it's done, ACC could be down to only 6-7 schools. Kind of not a good position to try to do any poaching.

(04-12-2012 12:52 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think it hinges on just how much carnage there is. If the Big 12 loses say 4 schools- You have Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St, TCU, West Virginia, and Baylor- I don't see that group having much power to poach the Big East. I could easily see Kansas and Kansas St poached into the Big East(imagine that basketball group). If it's the ACC getting poached- it's going to be multiple poachers. Big 12, SEC, Big Ten. By the time it's done, ACC could be down to only 6-7 schools. Kind of not a good position to try to do any poaching.

Even if Texas and company somehow end up heading to the Pac-12 in the future (I have serious doubts that would ever happen, but never say never), it's unlikely the Big 12 would still be sitting at 10 teams when that takes place. And whatever solid core of the ACC is left would still be enough to draw away schools like UCONN and Rutgers from the Big East. Even a 6-7 team ACC is going to include schools like SU, Pitt, Duke, UNC, UVA, likely Maryland... no chance UCONN/Rutgers passes up joining that association to remain with the far-flung marriage of convenience that the new BE will be.

(04-12-2012 12:44 PM)Coog82 Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:16 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:13 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  WVU did what they had to do. No need to re-argue that yet again. But had the league been proactive, and if they hadn't operated at the bare minimum # of schools for years, then WVU's immediate departure wouldn't have lead to such scheduling and logistical problems for the BE.

WVU didn't have to do this, that much is certain. And when the Bevo-12 splits, Luck will be long gone and the school can't come back East looking for a seat at the table.

Even if the Big 12 collapses down the road (and I don't think it will because the Texas need for control over even money is really the driving factor), WVU will be better off because the Big 12 will just raid the Big East further (NOT the other way around). There's this fallacy that the Big 12 collapsing or ACC getting raided means that the Big East is better off, and that's simply not true. In turn, there's a fallacy advanced by C-USA/MWC fans that they're better off if the Big East gets raided further, and that's simply not true, either. Just look at this past year: every time that a league started thinking that it could jump ahead in the pecking order (Big East over the ACC, MWC over the Big East, etc.), it got slapped back to the stone age. The pecking order has been established and no matter what Texas does, the Big 12 and ACC have poaching power over the Big East, so WVU is better off in all situations.

I agree with you that we could be raided again whether from the Big 12 or the ACC under the current contract. The new TV deal is the key here. If we can at least get ACC money and the Big 12 gets...say Florida State and Clemson to move to the Big 12, there is no reason for anyone in the Big East to then move to the ACC.

If we get better money than the ACC deal, then it is possible that they could be raided by the Big East. Money is the motivator here. Money and money alone will make the Big East not only a more stable league but also a destination...instead of a stopoff point.

Now, we need to get NBC/Comcast and Fox Sports to drive that price up and see what happens after that.

The TV contract is the key. BE was always the weakest in that dept and that's why the ACC and the B12 raided the BE before the new TV deal. I have said in the past that ESPN could help ACC destroy the BE before BE's next TV deal and that's exactly what happened. ACC operated like they always do which is in the backroom and in the dark.

Guys like Frank is like Quo, who thinks everything in the world is set in stone and nothing will ever change Frank is always here to remind everyone the pecking order day in and day out.

It wasn't too long ago B12 schools were contacting the BE looking for membership possibilities. There is no stability in the B12. It will all hinges on what Bevo does. If Bevo decides it is better off indy or going to the PAC-12, watch what will happen.

If BE get a lousy TV deal, then it will always have the potential to be raided. I always said TV contract is the key and nothing has changed.

(04-12-2012 12:57 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:52 PM)stever20 Wrote:  I think it hinges on just how much carnage there is. If the Big 12 loses say 4 schools- You have Iowa St, Kansas, Kansas St, TCU, West Virginia, and Baylor- I don't see that group having much power to poach the Big East. I could easily see Kansas and Kansas St poached into the Big East(imagine that basketball group). If it's the ACC getting poached- it's going to be multiple poachers. Big 12, SEC, Big Ten. By the time it's done, ACC could be down to only 6-7 schools. Kind of not a good position to try to do any poaching.

Even if Texas and company somehow end up heading to the Pac-12 in the future (I have serious doubts that would ever happen, but never say never), it's unlikely the Big 12 would still be sitting at 10 teams when that takes place. And whatever solid core of the ACC is left would still be enough to draw away schools like UCONN and Rutgers from the Big East. Even a 6-7 team ACC is going to include schools like SU, Pitt, Duke, UNC, UVA, likely Maryland... no chance UCONN/Rutgers passes up joining that association to remain with the far-flung marriage of convenience that the new BE will be.

The ACC could easily be a bunch of far flung pieces. BC, Syracuse, Pitt almost for sure still in there, but then adding Duke, UNC, Virginia(I think Maryland would be gone Big Ten pretty quickly there). The ACC would be looking at a massive rights reduction even picking up UConn and Rutgers. Don't see Uconn and Rutgers agreeing to go to less money.

(04-12-2012 12:13 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:07 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  One aspect of what you say is definitely correct - that the schools wouldn't have this scheduling mess that it has now. And it only took the immediate departure of WVU to cause that.

WVU did what they had to do. No need to re-argue that yet again. But had the league been proactive, and if they hadn't operated at the bare minimum # of schools for years, then WVU's immediate departure wouldn't have lead to such scheduling and logistical problems for the BE.

Had the conference been proactive from the start, The BEast would still exist in it's original form. But the conference started out thinking small, and so they've remained...

Conf expansion started in 20's & 30's, just as they were forming.
it's never gonna end because landscape is in constant change
with NBC & Fox looking to start sports networks,
they will only be able to sign 1or2 BCS confs, they will want bigger conf

(04-12-2012 11:57 AM)wvucrazed Wrote:  It wouldn't have stopped people from leaving, but it would have been beneficial to the league at the time, and it would have softened the blow of losing programs. If UCF, Memphis, et al. had been in the Big East and playing for a BCS league for several years, they'd presumably be ahead of where they are now.

This is true.

That said, I suspect the decision to go to 14 was partly due to lessons learned.

(04-12-2012 12:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  WVU will be better off because the Big 12 will just raid the Big East further (NOT the other way around).

You've said this before and it's utter bull****.

Without Texas and the big dogs (i.e. OU), the Big 12 television contract BLOWS UP completely.
They had to doggie paddle to get to 10 - as it is (when Nebraska, Mizzou, Texas A&M, and Colorado few the coup) - to keep the revenue stream open.

A league without a television contract (IN A BUNCH OF SMALL RURAL AREAS LIKE AMES, IOWA AND WACO, TEXAS) is not going to raid the #1 basketball conference and arguably the 5-6 football conference, WITH A ROCK-SOLID Television contract!!

That's just not how it works. Texas and OU supply all the juice for that conference. The rest is just A PUPPET SHOW.

(04-12-2012 01:31 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:13 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:07 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  One aspect of what you say is definitely correct - that the schools wouldn't have this scheduling mess that it has now. And it only took the immediate departure of WVU to cause that.

WVU did what they had to do. No need to re-argue that yet again. But had the league been proactive, and if they hadn't operated at the bare minimum # of schools for years, then WVU's immediate departure wouldn't have lead to such scheduling and logistical problems for the BE.

Had the conference been proactive from the start, The BEast would still exist in it's original form. But the conference started out thinking small, and so they've remained...

Bit I agree with you however....hindsight is 20/20. You are going Waaay back (80's).....and the BE was clearly a BB conference that wanted no part of football. They really had no way of knowing what football would evolve into.

WVUcrazed.....so what you are saying....is that even though the BE could not stop from being raided....they should have split up the crappy TV deal pie another 2 or 4 ways for several seasons.....just so they wouldn't have to deal with crappy scheduling in 2004 and 2012?

Plus in doing so....the odds the BE would have gotton $20 million from WVU would be smaller?

I tend to think from a money standpoint.....the BE has done the best that it could once they didn't enbrace a northeastern football formula decades ago. Once that mistake was made...there are very few things that they could have done differently to better themselves. You could even argue that had they gotten Penn State on board....it eventually wouldn't have mattered. Short of ND joining as a full member.....I don't really see what could have prevented all of this.

(04-12-2012 12:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Even if the Big 12 collapses down the road (and I don't think it will because the Texas need for control over even money is really the driving factor), WVU will be better off because the Big 12 will just raid the Big East further (NOT the other way around). There's this fallacy that the Big 12 collapsing or ACC getting raided means that the Big East is better off, and that's simply not true. In turn, there's a fallacy advanced by C-USA/MWC fans that they're better off if the Big East gets raided further, and that's simply not true, either. Just look at this past year: every time that a league started thinking that it could jump ahead in the pecking order (Big East over the ACC, MWC over the Big East, etc.), it got slapped back to the stone age. The pecking order has been established and no matter what Texas does, the Big 12 and ACC have poaching power over the Big East, so WVU is better off in all situations.

I'd say you're about half-right, regarding the B-12. Just Texas leaving is one thing. But there was a lot of REAL fear there when the entire block of UT/TT/OU/OSU flirted with leaving the rest of the members in tatters.

Fact is, NOW the B-12 has stabilized, although is hardly perfect at this point. But the events over the past year and a half have shown the league was hardly invincible. More importantly, it was extremely dysfunctional.

Conference was and still is all about money. If the ESPN TV contract was like the one they offered Big East last year there was no renegotiation clause when the conference added schools. Were Pitt, Syracuse, WVU, and the rest of the Big East willing to take less money by adding schools? So yeah it’s easier to point fingers now after what happened. It’s harder to look in the mirror and say they were part of the problem.

Pecking order is established by money, and nothing else. IF somehow the BE had a bigger media payout than the B12, or any other conference, then the pecking order would change overnight.

(04-12-2012 01:31 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:13 PM)wvucrazed Wrote:  

(04-12-2012 12:07 PM)BJUnklFkr Wrote:  One aspect of what you say is definitely correct - that the schools wouldn't have this scheduling mess that it has now. And it only took the immediate departure of WVU to cause that.

WVU did what they had to do. No need to re-argue that yet again. But had the league been proactive, and if they hadn't operated at the bare minimum # of schools for years, then WVU's immediate departure wouldn't have lead to such scheduling and logistical problems for the BE.

Had the conference been proactive from the start, The BEast would still exist in it's original form. But the conference started out thinking small, and so they've remained...

Bit,

Are you thinking Tranghese may have been right to have the Big East football schools merge with the Acc in football only?

Looking back, he was farsighted and no one listened and now the football schools are gone. I am limiting this statement to the original football schools.

(04-12-2012 01:11 PM)SF Husky Wrote:  Guys like Frank is like Quo, who thinks everything in the world is set in stone and nothing will ever change Frank is always here to remind everyone the pecking order day in and day out.

I think the Big East did the best job that it could with its expansion and can get a good new TV contract.

However, that's much different than poaching power, which no, the Big East doesn't have. Does that mean that the pecking order can NEVER change? I guess you can never say never, but the pecking order has certainly been the same for the past two decades since the collapse of the SWC. To the extent that the pecking order can change, it's glacial. Poaching power doesn't jump up and down with the latest TV contracts - it's really about long-term stability and institutional fit.

The context of Big 12 schools contacting the Big East a year ago was also when the Big East still had Syracuse, Pitt and WVU, which is obviously a much different situation today. The Big 12 leftovers compared to the New Big East are stronger on a relative basis today than the Big 12 leftovers compared to the Old Big East in 2010. Believe me, I'm not someone that overrates the Big 12, as I also find the idea that they have the ability to raid anyone from the ACC as ridiculous.

I dont see conferences goin beyond 16, BE forever will be bottom dweller in BCS if its next tv contract equals ACC type money. For the sake of competition, lets hope not.

Imo Big 12 should take 2 ACC teams and 2 BE teams, and call it quits at 14.

Guys -- the simple fact remains that television, specifically a battle for third tier rates and ESPN enouraging the ACC to blink first is what really kicked off expansion. None of these decisions were made in a vacuum without television input. Hell....Boston College was so brazen to basically admit this....

So don't you think that the President's would have added UCF, Memphis, et al years earlier if they thought they could get a better TV contract....and consequently perhaps more league stability by keeping the membership flush with cash? The Big East has been in constant contact with ESPN since the last deal....if ESPN thought they could make more money by the Big East expanding....they would have made that perfectly clear to the Big East.

That is the bottom line.... adding these programs didn't make financial sense....and it didn't have much to do with the alleged complacency Ollie Luck is rambling about. Nobody in the big east was going to volunteer to take less money in their share of TV dollars for the sake of adding more teams for "conference stability". There were too many programs looking out for themselves to really care about the long term of the league.

This league has been all about looking for number one. Hopefully that will change...since for the most part the remaining schools and new additions have to make this league work b/c there are many options left. It's Big East or bust. The remaining schools have to make it work....else we are going to get outspent into the stone age when the SEC gets their new deal. It's already happening.

The problem was that the Big East was not going to be able to add anyone for which ESPN would renegotiate the tv contract and give a big increase. So basically the league had to wait until present contract ran out and could then go out into market and hope tht competitors would drive up the value. WV AD is full of crap because he knows full well that the Eers and the other two would have taken the offers they took even if the league had expanded to 12. He is going to keep harping about Big12 expanding because he doesn't want WV being on an island in the league. But reality is that Big12 could add UL,BYU anytime they wanted to and Texas is not going to just add those two and go o a championship game that they have stated not to want just to please WV and add a couple of million in tv contracts. It has to be a major increase for UT to agree to that move

(04-12-2012 12:29 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Even if the Big 12 collapses down the road (and I don't think it will because the Texas need for control over even money is really the driving factor), WVU will be better off because the Big 12 will just raid the Big East further (NOT the other way around). There's this fallacy that the Big 12 collapsing or ACC getting raided means that the Big East is better off, and that's simply not true. In turn, there's a fallacy advanced by C-USA/MWC fans that they're better off if the Big East gets raided further, and that's simply not true, either. Just look at this past year: every time that a league started thinking that it could jump ahead in the pecking order (Big East over the ACC, MWC over the Big East, etc.), it got slapped back to the stone age. The pecking order has been established and no matter what Texas does, the Big 12 and ACC have poaching power over the Big East, so WVU is better off in all situations.

When the Big XII was teetering last year with Texas and others looking for a way out, weren't there pretty wide spread overtures that teams like K-State, KU, etc. were talking with or at least somewhat exploring the Big East?

Doesn't that show that at least at the time, the Big East was seen as a destination if those teams were stuck in a depleted Big XII?