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National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
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I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou Offline
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Post: #61
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
Here is a question for Max...

If we cut spending by enough to balance the budget after 10 years and the economy would boom IMMEDIATELY would you support budget cuts?


Here is another hypothetical...

If a homo jumped on your back would you beat him off?
04-02-2012 11:26 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-01-2012 10:49 PM)Max Power Wrote:  The Economist is definitely right of center, pro free market, free trade. It takes some liberal positions on social issues but it's more far right on economics than left on social issues. It's a right libertarian magazine.

It's to the right of you.
04-02-2012 11:31 AM
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RobertN Offline
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Post: #63
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-02-2012 11:26 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Here is a question for Max...

If we cut spending by enough to balance the budget after 10 years and the economy would boom IMMEDIATELY would you support budget cuts?


Here is another hypothetical...

If a homo jumped on your back would you beat him off?
I am pretty sure he is in favor of spending cuts.

Btw, in what way do you mean "beat him off"?
04-02-2012 12:04 PM
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Max Power Offline
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Post: #64
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
Quote:If we could, yes.
But we can't, so it's an absurd hypothetical.

Just curious. Many on the right seem to be opposed to any debt increase at all no matter what the benefits may be. But at least many here seem to acknowledge that an increase in debt can be justified by GDP increases. Which makes sense of course because the larger the economy the more tax revenue we generate with the same rates.

What you've all agreed to is that spending $1T to increase the GDP $16T (from $16T to $32T) is justified, or a multiplier of 16. My next question for you guys who answered affirmatively (everybody so far, thankfully), is what that multiplier has to reach for you to feel the spending was justified. 10? 5? 2.5 (about the highest estimated multiplier accepted by the CBO)? Or do you not believe in the multiplier effect? This could be productive dialogue I think.

Quote:and: Leaving the money in the private sector is more effective than spending by the govt.

I disagree. Certainly not in all instances. Scrooge McDuck swimming around in his money pit isn't effective at all; whereas if the government took some of that money and gave it to poor people as food stamps, they go to the grocery store and buy milk, which keeps the grocery store in business, and the grocery store buys more milk from the supplier, keeping them in business, and on and on. Government spending as I mention above can have a multiplier effect of up to 2.5, so that for every dollar spent by the government it increases GDP $2.50.

Quote:Keynesian Libs like Max worship the state. They can't conceive of any system that could run efficiently without governmental meddling. Eventually they will create a bubble so large that when it bursts...America is doomed

Sometimes government meddling is appropriate to keep the "system" running efficiently. Without government "meddling" we don't have an American auto industry anymore. The economic effects of that would be devastating. Can't you at least admit there are times when intevention is appropriate?

Quote:I still have the same question for anyone on the left.

You criticize power in the hands of corporations because corporations are run by greedy blood-suckers. But somehow, you don't have the same criticism of power in the hands of government, because government bureaucrats somehow are all altruistic and fair-minded. Exactly how and why do you believe that this happens?

One thing for sure, without that assumption, your whole worldview falls apart. And guess what, that assumption is nowhere remotely close to being true.

I'm not under any illusion that everyone who works for the government is altruistic and selfless, but they're not the opposite of those traits like corporations are. Corporations are heartless profit machines, who would do anything to clear a few more bucks in profit. Now to be fair the profit motive is in some ways good for everyone, such as when it motivates them to innovative and make a better widget, but it also can motivate them to cut corners to save a few cents in manufacturing the widget, which could make the widget less safe to use or put their own workers' safety in jeopardy. The Ford Pinto is a great example; there was a defect that caused explosions on impact in some cases and the board decided it would be cheaper to just pay off the families of the 100 or so expected deaths from the explosions than to recall every Pinto in America and fix the problem.

Government workers by contrast are all accountable to some degree by our elected officials. Bureaucracy can be wasteful and inefficient but that motivation to be evil isn't there, at least within the constraints of our constitutional republic. Yes the bureaucrat may have poor oversight and be lazy and may actually do poor work and ask for more money as a consequence, but again, they're not going to kill me to make a few bucks.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 02:53 PM by Max Power.)
04-02-2012 02:53 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #65
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-02-2012 02:53 PM)Max Power Wrote:  Government workers by contrast are all accountable to some degree by our elected officials. Bureaucracy can be wasteful and inefficient but that motivation to be evil isn't there, at least within the constraints of our constitutional republic.

Ahh, ignorance is bliss.
04-02-2012 02:56 PM
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GeorgeBorkFan Offline
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Post: #66
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
Max Power Wrote:Government workers by contrast are all accountable to some degree by our elected officials. Bureaucracy can be wasteful and inefficient but that motivation to be evil isn't there, at least within the constraints of our constitutional republic. Yes the bureaucrat may have poor oversight and be lazy and may actually do poor work and ask for more money as a consequence, but again, they're not going to kill me to make a few bucks.

This falls apart on so many levels. Let's just pick the low hanging fruit though.

Government corruption in the State of Illinois, specifically the license for bribes scandal that brought down George Ryan, specifically did result in the direct death of six children.
04-02-2012 03:29 PM
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Post: #67
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-02-2012 12:04 PM)RobertN Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 11:26 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Here is a question for Max...

If we cut spending by enough to balance the budget after 10 years and the economy would boom IMMEDIATELY would you support budget cuts?


Here is another hypothetical...

If a homo jumped on your back would you beat him off?
I am pretty sure he is in favor of spending cuts.

Btw, in what way do you mean "beat him off"?

Why don't you tell me...03-lmfao
04-02-2012 03:45 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-02-2012 02:53 PM)Max Power Wrote:  Government workers by contrast are all accountable to some degree by our elected officials. Bureaucracy can be wasteful and inefficient but that motivation to be evil isn't there, at least within the constraints of our constitutional republic. Yes the bureaucrat may have poor oversight and be lazy and may actually do poor work and ask for more money as a consequence, but again, they're not going to kill me to make a few bucks.

That's a crock. Every single word of it is a lie. I am sorry, but I cannot accept any part of that as true.

If I could, maybe I could be a lefty like you. But I know better.
04-02-2012 03:48 PM
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I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou Offline
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Post: #69
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-02-2012 03:48 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-02-2012 02:53 PM)Max Power Wrote:  Government workers by contrast are all accountable to some degree by our elected officials. Bureaucracy can be wasteful and inefficient but that motivation to be evil isn't there, at least within the constraints of our constitutional republic. Yes the bureaucrat may have poor oversight and be lazy and may actually do poor work and ask for more money as a consequence, but again, they're not going to kill me to make a few bucks.

That's a crock. Every single word of it is a lie. I am sorry, but I cannot accept any part of that as true.

If I could, maybe I could be a lefty like you. But I know better.

Careful...disagree with Max and he'll put you on ignore.03-hissyfit
04-02-2012 03:50 PM
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Max Power Offline
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Post: #70
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-02-2012 03:29 PM)GeorgeBorkFan Wrote:  
Max Power Wrote:Government workers by contrast are all accountable to some degree by our elected officials. Bureaucracy can be wasteful and inefficient but that motivation to be evil isn't there, at least within the constraints of our constitutional republic. Yes the bureaucrat may have poor oversight and be lazy and may actually do poor work and ask for more money as a consequence, but again, they're not going to kill me to make a few bucks.

This falls apart on so many levels. Let's just pick the low hanging fruit though.

Government corruption in the State of Illinois, specifically the license for bribes scandal that brought down George Ryan, specifically did result in the direct death of six children.

FYI we've had this argument before, guys.

http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=534416&page=2

George, at least you're smart enough not to bring up Crestwood this time, and their right wing nut mayor who thought government should be run like a business and drew water from a contaminated well to save the residents on property taxes. As for George Ryan, like I said, all government bureaucrats are at the very least accountable to the people. Even if it's the governor, we can vote him out (or have the senate remove him). If Ford does something despicable, we can't remove their CEO or board members. The license scandal was profit motivated BTW, so maybe I should rephrase and say that government workers can be evil especially when we allow such a motive to be injected into the government.
04-02-2012 04:18 PM
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Post: #71
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-02-2012 04:18 PM)Max Power Wrote:  like I said, all government bureaucrats are at the very least accountable to the people.

Like I said, you're ignorant of reality.
04-02-2012 04:51 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #72
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
(04-02-2012 04:18 PM)Max Power Wrote:  like I said, all government bureaucrats are at the very least accountable to the people.

This is insanely stupid. We're not insane or stupid, so please spare us.
(This post was last modified: 04-03-2012 07:56 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
04-02-2012 05:18 PM
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GeorgeBorkFan Offline
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Post: #73
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
Max Power Wrote:FYI we've had this argument before, guys.

http://csnbbs.com/showthread.php?tid=534416&page=2

George, at least you're smart enough not to bring up Crestwood this time, and their right wing nut mayor who thought government should be run like a business and drew water from a contaminated well to save the residents on property taxes. As for George Ryan, like I said, all government bureaucrats are at the very least accountable to the people. Even if it's the governor, we can vote him out (or have the senate remove him). If Ford does something despicable, we can't remove their CEO or board members. The license scandal was profit motivated BTW, so maybe I should rephrase and say that government workers can be evil especially when we allow such a motive to be injected into the government.

Crestwood is a fine example. What he said about "wanting to run it like a business" is a red herring. It is government and it hurt people. Period. End of story.

Clearly you don't understand what "profit" means. Since Wikipedia is your home page, look it up.

Try harder next time, please.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2012 08:15 PM by GeorgeBorkFan.)
04-02-2012 08:14 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #74
RE: National Debt increases more under Obama then any other president including G.W.
Max, you are trying the same trap that leftists always try--"If we could do X and it would produce Y, should we do it?" Where, of course, X is some minimal cost and Y is some wonderful result. And obviously, the only rational answer to such an illogical hypothetical is "yes."

But that's the problem. The hypothetical is illogical because doing X won't produce result Y. That's the logical flaw in your argument. You want to take an absurd hypothetical and make it somewhat less absurd by saying, "OK, you've agreed that if we could do X and get Y we should, therefore would you agree to do X+1 if that could get us to Y?" And then X+2, etc. My response is that it's an absurd hypothetical because it has no relation to reality. This kind of logic works with juries, and lawyers (including me, and, I'm sure, you) use it to trip up experts all the time. So I know where you're coming from. But it doesn't work if one sees through what you are doing.

The proper way to use a hypothetical in logical argument is to say something like, OK, we agree that if X produces Y, then X is worth doing. Now prove that X produces Y. That's what you can't do, because X does NOT produce Y.
04-03-2012 07:56 AM
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