I spent the first 16 years of my life in Delray Beach, Fl, so I prefer FAU.

(03-28-2012 10:14 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  I hear a lot of CUSA fans that talk about possibly expanding back into Florida preferring FIU overr FAU, if you had to choose one. Why is this? Do you know much about either? If it were me, I'd say that FAU gives CUSA way more than FIU ever could. FIU has had a couple of good victories the past year or so...but so did FAU just a few years prior.
FIU's stadium is mainly their soccer stadium and might be the worst in FBS and it's their newest. Their press box is just a flat surface on top of the roof of the stadium with tents and aluminum chairs as media booths. In between plays...they don't play band cheers or fight songs. They play salsa music. FAU just opened a gorgeous new stadium and has a much bigger potential, imo. Both carry the same TV markets, practically and both share it with Miami.
I just don't get the love for FIU. They really don't put anything into their programs, at all. Hardly any investments what so ever. FAU is working their butts off to build something special there and committing to the new facilities and built their brand new "football" stadium.
If you can get both...that's a good thing, too. But if it's going to be one over the other...it's gotta be FAU over FIU, bigtime!

Well I guess it was to be expected that a G' Knight fan might be spreading false stories about FIU but really, at least try to get some of your facts straight. FIU has a seperate soccer field from the football field. FIU's band occupies the NE corner of the stadium and plays 'band cheers' and fight songs and the stadium plays hard banging rock and hip-hop and rarely if ever plays salsa. Beyond that, FIU is in the Miami DMA which includes Dade and Broward Counties (approx. 4 1/2 million) and is the number 16 market in the country. FAU is in Palm Beach County and though Boca boarders Broward, their DMA includes Palm Beach and the Treasure Coast and is #38.

FIU has a brand new stadium and is currently in the process of removing the North stands and enclosing the entire bowl. FIU can expand its stadium to 45,000 (similar to UCF) once market forces dictate, current capcity will be ~25,000 prior to the opening game this season. FIU's stadium also has a state of the art Field House embedded within the stadium, which is a key recruiting advantage.

Given FIU's choices we now have a very competitive OOC schedule which started a few years back and continues for the foreseeable future. FAU, on the other hand, in order to pay their stadium bond, will be playing 'money games' to start their season until attendance can pay the bond (which may never happen given early losing records they will need to sell).

Fortunately FIU does not need to sell itself to ignorant board posters and will continue to do what it feel is best for its program given the market forces in which it resides.

And by the way, UCF should be thanking FIU for its medical school given the decades worth of hard work we did in the Fla Legislature to make these complexes a reality.

Being from Miami and have have experience with both FAU and FIU (ex-employee)
In my opinion FIU has much more potential than FAU

First market. FIU is right in the middle of Miami-Dade county. And its location is in a densely populated area of that county.
FAU is in Boca. which is the outer fringes of the tri-county area. Market share is clearly on FIU's side.

FIU is a much bigger school in terms of enrollment... think 11th in the country?
FIU from what I experienced has been really really pushing school pride and support.
FAU has started... but no where near the level FIU has. And not just sports related either.
They are really aggressively trying to upgrade their academia too.

While Goldenbuc is trying to troll and I tend to ignore... since many people may not know FIU, they may believe him.
As FIUFan has said... they DO NOT share a stadium with their soccer team.
Also, the stadium is being upgraded in phases... Kind of happens when you are trying to upgrade in a bad economy and are a start up program. They are still in the middle phase the the upgrade. But with each phase.. they are trying to do it as best as they can.
The rendering of the completed phase 2 (which will hold 35k:)
http://www.fiusports.com/pics2/640/VP/VP...180629.jpg

The finished stadium will house 45k.

Also... with Christobal the program is heading toward the right direction. And seems to have surpassed FAU.
People in that area are starting to believe in the program. People may knock the program... but they have to start somewhere.

I remember while working there, hardly no one wore FIU gear... on campus or otherwise
Now I'm starting to see FIU on cars around that area.

Nice rendering of the next phase dogma; thanks for that. Looks like to get to 35,000 we would put 5,000 more seats above the north and south side of the stadium (to get to 45,000 the second level would be completed as a bowl).

Also notice the field house on left side of picture (west side of stadium).

(03-28-2012 11:02 AM)USM@FTL Wrote:  I like both. Adding them marginalizes USF and UCF.

However, I think we need to work on the MWC/C-USA/WAC merger thing first. Neither FIU or FAU are going anywhere anytime soon.

I think 18 is the easiest step. I'm still curious though who loses more NCAA credits, MWC or C-USA?

Yes, because USF felt quite marginalized when they jumped to the Big East and C-USA added UCF.

Really, I think both schools would make good additions, but I'd give the edge to FIU at this point.

(03-28-2012 10:24 PM)Sultan of Euphonistan Wrote:  

(03-28-2012 10:14 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  I hear a lot of CUSA fans that talk about possibly expanding back into Florida preferring FIU overr FAU, if you had to choose one. Why is this? Do you know much about either? If it were me, I'd say that FAU gives CUSA way more than FIU ever could. FIU has had a couple of good victories the past year or so...but so did FAU just a few years prior.

FIU's stadium is mainly their soccer stadium and might be the worst in FBS and it's their newest. Their press box is just a flat surface on top of the roof of the stadium with tents and aluminum chairs as media booths. In between plays...they don't play band cheers or fight songs. They play salsa music. FAU just opened a gorgeous new stadium and has a much bigger potential, imo. Both carry the same TV markets, practically and both share it with Miami.

I just don't get the love for FIU. They really don't put anything into their programs, at all. Hardly any investments what so ever. FAU is working their butts off to build something special there and committing to the new facilities and built their brand new "football" stadium.

If you can get both...that's a good thing, too. But if it's going to be one over the other...it's gotta be FAU over FIU, bigtime!

They don't have a marching band playing? Automatic no then. Take FAU then.

More nonsense from Goldenbuc
He tends to post made up things without looking it up

FIU does have a marching band.
Also... do a search for their dance squad. Quite impressive

(03-29-2012 08:41 AM)dogma Wrote:  While Goldenbuc is trying to troll and I tend to ignore... since many people may not know FIU, they may believe him.
As FIUFan has said... they DO NOT share a stadium with their soccer team.
Also, the stadium is being upgraded in phases... Kind of happens when you are trying to upgrade in a bad economy and are a start up program. They are still in the middle phase the the upgrade. But with each phase.. they are trying to do it as best as they can.
The rendering of the completed phase 2 (which will hold 35k:)
http://www.fiusports.com/pics2/640/VP/VP...180629.jpg

The finished stadium will house 45k.

Also... with Christobal the program is heading toward the right direction. And seems to have surpassed FAU.
People in that area are starting to believe in the program. People may knock the program... but they have to start somewhere.

I remember while working there, hardly no one wore FIU gear... on campus or otherwise
Now I'm starting to see FIU on cars around that area.

This was not a troll attempt, at all. I have zero ties to either school and don't care what happens to either school. UCF played at FIU this season and it was the worst stadium experience I've ever seen in any FBS stadium. I was actually told by someone there that it was also a soccer stadium...maybe they just didn't know enough about their own school...which is typical of FIU and FAU.

FIU doesn't even have press boxes! Our radio announcer said he feared for his life up there. Plus...other than the UCF game...FIU had horrible support during a decent season. FAU didn't do any better...but I think their commitment to facilities and fanbase is better than FIU. FIU will never have a 45k stadium if they can't fill their current 18k seat stadium.

FAU has been down lately, but got a solid new coach. Who wants to see renderings when FAU has a nice college stadium that fits 30k and is expandable. Renderings are great and all...but this is already built...

(03-29-2012 09:13 AM)RobUCF Wrote:  

(03-28-2012 11:02 AM)USM@FTL Wrote:  I like both. Adding them marginalizes USF and UCF.

However, I think we need to work on the MWC/C-USA/WAC merger thing first. Neither FIU or FAU are going anywhere anytime soon.

I think 18 is the easiest step. I'm still curious though who loses more NCAA credits, MWC or C-USA?

Yes, because USF felt quite marginalized when they jumped to the Big East and C-USA added UCF.

Really, I think both schools would make good additions, but I'd give the edge to FIU at this point.

Marginalized is not the right term exactly, but when we bumped you guys up after USF left we certainly increased their local competition for recruits and coverage, which while not a killer I'm sure didn't help them. Would bumping up one or both of the F_U's do the same thing to you and USF? I'm not real sure, but I can't imagine the increased in state competition helps. That's not a reason we should add either of them though. Trying to add teams only to spite those that left isn't a successful expansion theory. If adding either of them makes us more valuable to a TV network then sure do it, and if not don't.

(03-29-2012 09:30 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  This was not a troll attempt, at all. I have zero ties to either school and don't care what happens to either school. UCF played at FIU this season and it was the worst stadium experience I've ever seen in any FBS stadium. I was actually told by someone there that it was also a soccer stadium...maybe they just didn't know enough about their own school...which is typical of FIU and FAU.
FIU doesn't even have press boxes! Our radio announcer said he feared for his life up there. Plus...other than the UCF game...FIU had horrible support during a decent season. FAU didn't do any better...but I think their commitment to facilities and fanbase is better than FIU. FIU will never have a 45k stadium if they can't fill their current 18k seat stadium.
FAU has been down lately, but got a solid new coach. Who wants to see renderings when FAU has a nice college stadium that fits 30k and is expandable. Renderings are great and all...but this is already built...

If you would have turned your head around to the north you would have seen the soccer field about 500 yards away (just past the baseball stadium) [there was speculation of hosting the Barcelona entry into MLS at the FIU stadium; this may be where some of your confusuion lies]. Also, current capacity is around 23,000 and was quite full for both the UCF and Duke games. Louisville comes to town this year and we open with Akron; I would expect 20,000 plus for these games.

The 'announcer feared for his life', if this isn't trolling hyperbole I don't know what is. Not sure about your agenda there 'buc but with your lack of research and general knowledge we don't have anything to worry about from you.

(03-29-2012 09:39 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 09:30 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  This was not a troll attempt, at all. I have zero ties to either school and don't care what happens to either school. UCF played at FIU this season and it was the worst stadium experience I've ever seen in any FBS stadium. I was actually told by someone there that it was also a soccer stadium...maybe they just didn't know enough about their own school...which is typical of FIU and FAU.
FIU doesn't even have press boxes! Our radio announcer said he feared for his life up there. Plus...other than the UCF game...FIU had horrible support during a decent season. FAU didn't do any better...but I think their commitment to facilities and fanbase is better than FIU. FIU will never have a 45k stadium if they can't fill their current 18k seat stadium.
FAU has been down lately, but got a solid new coach. Who wants to see renderings when FAU has a nice college stadium that fits 30k and is expandable. Renderings are great and all...but this is already built...

If you would have turned your head around to the north you would have seen the soccer field about 500 yards away (just past the baseball stadium) [there was speculation of hosting the Barcelona entry into MLS at the FIU stadium; this may be where some of your confusuion lies]. Also, current capacity is around 23,000 and was quite full for both the UCF and Duke games. Louisville comes to town this year and we open with Akron; I would expect 20,000 plus for these games.

The 'announcer feared for his life', if this isn't trolling hyperbole I don't know what is. Not sure about your agenda there 'buc but with your lack of research and general knowledge we don't have anything to worry about from you.

No agenda. Just stating what I heard. I'm know the radio announcer was exagerrating...but it was an awkward situation for them up there. But regardless...I can see your point and don't blame you for defending FIU. I hope FIU and FAU succeed.

If you do go to CUSA...I think it'd be best if both go. Just don't listen to ECU fans. They will never consider you equals and above you on another level..despite being in the same conference. At the same time they'll see you as a threat to pass them. They'll also claim out of some crazy mindset that they somehow helped bump teams up...in which they never had anything to do with any growth of any Florida school or anyone else.

(03-29-2012 10:32 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 09:39 AM)FIUFan Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 09:30 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  This was not a troll attempt, at all. I have zero ties to either school and don't care what happens to either school. UCF played at FIU this season and it was the worst stadium experience I've ever seen in any FBS stadium. I was actually told by someone there that it was also a soccer stadium...maybe they just didn't know enough about their own school...which is typical of FIU and FAU.
FIU doesn't even have press boxes! Our radio announcer said he feared for his life up there. Plus...other than the UCF game...FIU had horrible support during a decent season. FAU didn't do any better...but I think their commitment to facilities and fanbase is better than FIU. FIU will never have a 45k stadium if they can't fill their current 18k seat stadium.
FAU has been down lately, but got a solid new coach. Who wants to see renderings when FAU has a nice college stadium that fits 30k and is expandable. Renderings are great and all...but this is already built...

If you would have turned your head around to the north you would have seen the soccer field about 500 yards away (just past the baseball stadium) [there was speculation of hosting the Barcelona entry into MLS at the FIU stadium; this may be where some of your confusuion lies]. Also, current capacity is around 23,000 and was quite full for both the UCF and Duke games. Louisville comes to town this year and we open with Akron; I would expect 20,000 plus for these games.

The 'announcer feared for his life', if this isn't trolling hyperbole I don't know what is. Not sure about your agenda there 'buc but with your lack of research and general knowledge we don't have anything to worry about from you.

No agenda. Just stating what I heard. I'm know the radio announcer was exagerrating...but it was an awkward situation for them up there. But regardless...I can see your point and don't blame you for defending FIU. I hope FIU and FAU succeed.

If you do go to CUSA...I think it'd be best if both go. Just don't listen to ECU fans. They will never consider you equals and above you on another level..despite being in the same conference. At the same time they'll see you as a threat to pass them. They'll also claim out of some crazy mindset that they somehow helped bump teams up...in which they never had anything to do with any growth of any Florida school or anyone else.

So you think had you stayed in the MAC UCF would be where they are right now? Simple question.

(03-29-2012 09:35 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Marginalized is not the right term exactly, but when we bumped you guys up after USF left we certainly increased their local competition for recruits and coverage, which while not a killer I'm sure didn't help them. Would bumping up one or both of the F_U's do the same thing to you and USF? I'm not real sure, but I can't imagine the increased in state competition helps. That's not a reason we should add either of them though. Trying to add teams only to spite those that left isn't a successful expansion theory. If adding either of them makes us more valuable to a TV network then sure do it, and if not don't.

ECU didn't Help bump USF, UCF or anyone else up. ECU's presence in CUSA didn't provide any exposure to USF or UCF that contributed to any growth by either school and ECU wouldn't have anything to do with any growth coming from FIU or FAU, if they were CUSA. Unless ECU provided UCF with the $300 million UCF spent on campus athletic facilities the past 7 years or provided USF with Coach Leavitt who built their team from scratch...then yes. ECU did provide USF with Skip Holtz, though. I'll give you that. Otherwise...ECU didn't provide UCF or USF anything but good comedy on the message boards.

(03-29-2012 10:39 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 09:35 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Marginalized is not the right term exactly, but when we bumped you guys up after USF left we certainly increased their local competition for recruits and coverage, which while not a killer I'm sure didn't help them. Would bumping up one or both of the F_U's do the same thing to you and USF? I'm not real sure, but I can't imagine the increased in state competition helps. That's not a reason we should add either of them though. Trying to add teams only to spite those that left isn't a successful expansion theory. If adding either of them makes us more valuable to a TV network then sure do it, and if not don't.

ECU didn't Help bump USF, UCF or anyone else up. ECU's presence in CUSA didn't provide any exposure to USF or UCF that contributed to any growth by either school and ECU wouldn't have anything to do with any growth coming from FIU or FAU, if they were CUSA. Unless ECU provided UCF with the $300 million UCF spent on campus athletic facilities the past 7 years or provided USF with Coach Leavitt who built their team from scratch...then yes. ECU did provide USF with Skip Holtz, though. I'll give you that. Otherwise...ECU didn't provide UCF or USF anything but good comedy on the message boards.

And here is you reading something in a post that wasn't there. When I said "we" I meant C-USA, of which ECU is a member of. C-USA did bump you up. Are you debating that fact? Would you have gotten to where you are right now if C-USA had decided not to invite you? You claim ECU fans have the complex but how exactly was it hard to tell the we in that statement meant the league as the rest of the post was league related?

(03-29-2012 10:42 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 10:39 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 09:35 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  Marginalized is not the right term exactly, but when we bumped you guys up after USF left we certainly increased their local competition for recruits and coverage, which while not a killer I'm sure didn't help them. Would bumping up one or both of the F_U's do the same thing to you and USF? I'm not real sure, but I can't imagine the increased in state competition helps. That's not a reason we should add either of them though. Trying to add teams only to spite those that left isn't a successful expansion theory. If adding either of them makes us more valuable to a TV network then sure do it, and if not don't.

ECU didn't Help bump USF, UCF or anyone else up. ECU's presence in CUSA didn't provide any exposure to USF or UCF that contributed to any growth by either school and ECU wouldn't have anything to do with any growth coming from FIU or FAU, if they were CUSA. Unless ECU provided UCF with the $300 million UCF spent on campus athletic facilities the past 7 years or provided USF with Coach Leavitt who built their team from scratch...then yes. ECU did provide USF with Skip Holtz, though. I'll give you that. Otherwise...ECU didn't provide UCF or USF anything but good comedy on the message boards.

And here is you reading something in a post that wasn't there. When I said "we" I meant C-USA, of which ECU is a member of. C-USA did bump you up. Are you debating that fact? Would you have gotten to where you are right now if C-USA had decided not to invite you? You claim ECU fans have the complex but how exactly was it hard to tell the we in that statement meant the league as the rest of the post was league related?

I took it as that you were referring to "we" as ECU. CUSA did help propel UCF to where we are now, indeed. I did misread what you meant. Sorry.

Actually, FIU stadium is a FIFA compliant stadium and we have hosted Gold Cup matches 2 times since the stadium has opened. However, FIU's soccer team (a member of CUSA btw) plays at FIU's Soccer Stadium.

Photo of FIU Stadium Hosting Soccer


FIU has 3 indoor press rooms (1 for our radio broadcasters and 2 additional rooms) fortunately for us, ESPN seems to like us and they were hosted on the other rooms which relegated your broadcast team to outdoor seating, not the first time a visiting team's crew is out since ESPN seems to like broadcasting from our stadium. This will be fixed during the next phase, but frankly the fact that your radio crew is inconvenienced is at the bottom of the list of things for us to worry about.

Also, FIU had better attendance at the Duke game than the UCF game, so no, you were not the highest attended game of the season last year, however I had a good time. Here's something for you to remember us by.....

(03-29-2012 09:30 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  

(03-29-2012 08:41 AM)dogma Wrote:  While Goldenbuc is trying to troll and I tend to ignore... since many people may not know FIU, they may believe him.
As FIUFan has said... they DO NOT share a stadium with their soccer team.
Also, the stadium is being upgraded in phases... Kind of happens when you are trying to upgrade in a bad economy and are a start up program. They are still in the middle phase the the upgrade. But with each phase.. they are trying to do it as best as they can.
The rendering of the completed phase 2 (which will hold 35k:)
http://www.fiusports.com/pics2/640/VP/VP...180629.jpg

The finished stadium will house 45k.

Also... with Christobal the program is heading toward the right direction. And seems to have surpassed FAU.
People in that area are starting to believe in the program. People may knock the program... but they have to start somewhere.

I remember while working there, hardly no one wore FIU gear... on campus or otherwise
Now I'm starting to see FIU on cars around that area.

This was not a troll attempt, at all. I have zero ties to either school and don't care what happens to either school. UCF played at FIU this season and it was the worst stadium experience I've ever seen in any FBS stadium. I was actually told by someone there that it was also a soccer stadium...maybe they just didn't know enough about their own school...which is typical of FIU and FAU.

FIU doesn't even have press boxes! Our radio announcer said he feared for his life up there. Plus...other than the UCF game...FIU had horrible support during a decent season. FAU didn't do any better...but I think their commitment to facilities and fanbase is better than FIU. FIU will never have a 45k stadium if they can't fill their current 18k seat stadium.

FAU has been down lately, but got a solid new coach. Who wants to see renderings when FAU has a nice college stadium that fits 30k and is expandable. Renderings are great and all...but this is already built...

Previously posted this, so I'm just cutting and pasting....

FAU will be making payments for the next 30 years and it should be a consideration, because of how those payments are made. Their projections have them making those payments from game guarantees and ticket sales. They couldn't even make the ticket sales projections during the inaugural stadium season. That's a problem, because that means MORE guarantee games (i.e. losses). We could upgrade our stadium by mortgaging our future, but we would rather host Rutgers, Duke, USF, UCF, Pitt, Texas A&M, Louisville, Akron (etc.) FIU's football schedule is full of 1 and 1's with those type of teams until 2014. So for all the inadequacies of our facilities it doesn't seem to be bothering the big boys.

As far as academics, you can look them up, but outside of UF and FSU, we are the only public school in Florida with a Law School and a Medical School. We get more applicants than FAU, our admission rates are lower (more selective), our entering students GPA and test scores are higher. So I will leave it up to you to interpret that how you will.

Our 2011 Fall student body was 49K (FAU is at 29K) and our athletic budget at $26MM was about 40% higher than your favorite Florida school.

The moral of this story is this, could we upgrade our facilities by taking out a loan and saddling ourselves with a large debt service and losing OOC records every year? SURE! But when our facilities are hosting the level of teams they are hosting without a problem and when the plan of building our stadium in phases is giving us more financial freedom, why would we? So that a few journalism majors can have a press box, No. Our AD is a smart guy and he is doing this the right way. He is establishing a winning program which is really what builds tradition. Ask Akron what a nice stadium does for your football team if you are not winning.

Go F I U!

(03-29-2012 10:32 AM)Goldenbuc Wrote:  No agenda. Just stating what I heard. I'm know the radio announcer was exagerrating...but it was an awkward situation for them up there. But regardless...I can see your point and don't blame you for defending FIU. I hope FIU and FAU succeed.

If you do go to CUSA...I think it'd be best if both go. Just don't listen to ECU fans. They will never consider you equals and above you on another level..despite being in the same conference. At the same time they'll see you as a threat to pass them. They'll also claim out of some crazy mindset that they somehow helped bump teams up...in which they never had anything to do with any growth of any Florida school or anyone else.

That's much more reasonable.

See you in Orlando in a couple of months.

Not to get into this argument since I'm tired of it (and it's my belief that both schools should move up), but the only people that seem to be concerned about how our stadium was financed are FIU fans. FAU fans aren't concerned and the people I've talked to involved with the school (I used to work at the school in the athletic department so I've asked some people over there about this because of what I've read on these boards...by the way, I also have some good friends that work for FIU, so I'm not entirely biased here) aren't concerned. Anyway, people I've spoken to all say the financing was conservatively done and making the payments are a non-issue. It's a $2 million payment per year over the next 30 years that will be covered by ticket sales, "money" games(2 per season), and leasing out the stadium for other events. It's not the big deal that FIU fans like to claim it to be.

When the whole FIU/FAU arguement was brought up in the past, FIU fans always liked to point out our lack of stadium...now that we have a great stadium, the talking point is "but how will they pay for it?" Believe me, FAU didn't go into this stadium deal blindly. They spent a decade trying to come up with a proper way to finance the stadium. They didn't enter into a deal they couldn't pay for...the Board of Trustees (the group that held up a number of stadium proposals in the past) wouldn't have allowed it if that were the case.

(03-29-2012 12:49 PM)fauowls561 Wrote:  Anyway, people I've spoken to all say the financing was conservatively done and making the payments are a non-issue. It's a $2 million payment per year over the next 30 years that will be covered by ticket sales, "money" games(2 per season), and leasing out the stadium for other events. It's not the big deal that FIU fans like to claim it to be.

From Ted Hutton, FAU Blogger during the BOT meeting that approved the stadium:

Quote:-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update 5

Some bad news: Looks like FAU is going to have to play three money games (Advanced Training) to make the stadium funding work. That means five home games per year, and just one easy non-con game.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Live from FAU: Stadium financing APPROVED

Was this incorrectly reported fauowls561?

There's also this:

Quote:Attendance at the stadium was 17,565 in its first season, which was lower than projections.

FAU AD Fired

So as I mentioned in my post, in year 1 FAU failed to meet its, in your own words, very conservative projections.

So now you have 3 money games AND you aren't meeting your revenue projections from your other sources (i.e. ticket sales and events), does that mean you add a 4th money game?