(03-23-2012 11:34 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(03-23-2012 07:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  That seems reasonable to me - his accomplishments warrant College Hall inclusion, but not Naismith inclusion.

More BS.

First off, I said in the original post that Guy V. was in the College Basketball Hall of Fame and not the Naismith. Were you not paying close attention?

Second, how is Guy V. LESS DESERVING for the Naismith Hall of Fame than the other coaches that are in there, such as John Chaney?

Again, you throw out these crazy statements with no comparisons to support your assertions, Quo.

Again? I continuously beat back your silly statements in thread after thread, and yet you think i make crazy statements? You must be bonkers.

As for Guy Lewis, if the appropriate standard for inclusion in Naismith is whether other coaches with lesser credentials are already in, then i would agree he belongs. But, to me that just means Naismith made mistakes when it admitted guys like Chaney. It shouldn't compound that mistake by admitting coaches like Lewis.

Lewis was an outstanding coach, but without a national title, he doesn't belong in the Naismith Hall.

(03-22-2012 10:08 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  Why such low blow pathetic statement quo??? The only critic I see here is you.

He wasn't being a critic, BigHouston. Well, not in my opinion, anyway. Of course, I disagree with quo on the Naismith Hall of Fame, but he does acknowledge they made a mistake by leaving Guy out while including John Chaney.

(03-23-2012 03:51 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Again? I continuously beat back your silly statements in thread after thread, and yet you think i make crazy statements? You must be bonkers.

The only thing you ever beat is yourself, quo. You never support anything you write with fact. Just because you keep showing your face after I make you look stupid doesn't mean I left you with any pride. It just means you're dense.

(03-23-2012 03:51 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  As for Guy Lewis, if the appropriate standard for inclusion in Naismith is whether other coaches with lesser credentials are already in, then i would agree he belongs. But, to me that just means Naismith made mistakes when it admitted guys like Chaney. It shouldn't compound that mistake by admitting coaches like Lewis.

Lewis was an outstanding coach, but without a national title, he doesn't belong in the Naismith Hall.

When logic doesn't support your argument, you claim error by the same institutions you were praising for rightly omitting Guy V. earlier!! Whatever.
How many coaches with or without a national title have been to 5 Final Fours? Not only five final fours but over the course of three decades?

That, my friend, is prolonged success. He was able to win with successive generations playing for him. There's no luck involved. If you mean to tell me that Guy V. doesn't belong because of one airball that was put back in against N.C. State (obviously not a coaching shortcoming) than we can agree to disagree.

Chaney belongs, as does Lewis. You obviously don't belong anywhere near this argument.

(03-23-2012 04:54 PM)GeminiShamrock Wrote:  but he does acknowledge they made a mistake by leaving Guy out while including John Chaney.

Quo only admitted that because her premise was shown to have a fatal flaw. Rather than blame herself, she blamed Naismith.

Typical blowhard.

(03-23-2012 06:23 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(03-23-2012 04:54 PM)GeminiShamrock Wrote:  but he does acknowledge they made a mistake by leaving Guy out while including John Chaney.

Quo only admitted that because her premise was shown to have a fatal flaw. Rather than blame herself, she blamed Naismith.

Typical blowhard.

lol Good point.

[quote='BigEastHomer' pid='7722655' dateline='1332544828']
[quote='quo vadis' pid='7722320' dateline='1332535901']
Again? I continuously beat back your silly statements in thread after thread, and yet you think i make crazy statements? You must be bonkers.

[/quote]

The only thing you ever beat is yourself, quo. You never support anything you write with fact. Just because you keep showing your face after I make you look stupid doesn't mean I left you with any pride. It just means you're dense.[/quote]

Are you really this stupid? I expose the flaws in your incoherent ramblings time and again, and yet you really think you've made coherent points? You never post any facts, just endless optimistic blather, and yet think you have exposed anyone but yourself? Good lord.

[quote='quo vadis' pid='7722320' dateline='1332535901']

As for Guy Lewis, if the appropriate standard for inclusion in Naismith is whether other coaches with lesser credentials are already in, then i would agree he belongs. But, to me that just means Naismith made mistakes when it admitted guys like Chaney. It shouldn't compound that mistake by admitting coaches like Lewis.

Lewis was an outstanding coach, but without a national title, he doesn't belong in the Naismith Hall.
[quote]

When logic doesn't support your argument, you claim error by the same institutions you were praising for rightly omitting Guy V. earlier!! Whatever.
How many coaches with or without a national title have been to 5 Final Fours? Not only five final fours but over the course of three decades?

That, my friend, is prolonged success. He was able to win with successive generations playing for him. There's no luck involved. If you mean to tell me that Guy V. doesn't belong because of one airball that was put back in against N.C. State (obviously not a coaching shortcoming) than we can agree to disagree.

Chaney belongs, as does Lewis. You obviously don't belong anywhere near this argument.
[/quote]

Neither Chaney nor Lewis merit the Naismith Hall, which should be reserved for the cream of the cream. Neither coach fits the bill.

PS...please never use the word logic again. If you think the inclusion of Chaney logically implies admitting Lewis, you clearly have no understanding of its meaning.

(03-23-2012 07:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-22-2012 10:08 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  Why such low blow pathetic statement quo??? The only critic I see here is you.

Are you really this stupid? "Gemini" wondered why, given his credentials, Lewis has yet to be inducted in the Hall. I thought about it and remembered that back at the height of the Phi Slamma dynasty, many did not consider the success of the Houston team to be the result of his coaching, which was often disparaged. I didn't say i agreed with that assessment, just that it was a common assessment of his coaching back then, which it was.

Sorry if that offended you ... not.

PS: Here is a quote from Otis Birdsong, basically saying the same thing, in the Houston Chronicle:

"The best thing that ever happened to coach Lewis and the worst thing that ever happened to coach Lewis was Phi Slama Jama," 1977 All-America guard Otis Birdsong said. "They were so good, it almost looked as if he wasn't coaching them."

There are plenty "he just rolled the ball out there" critics, but Lewis was more than just a master recruiter ...".

PS - I just found out Lewis is in the College Basketball Hall of Fame. It is the Naismith Hall he is not a member of.

That seems reasonable to me - his accomplishments warrant College Hall inclusion, but not Naismith inclusion.

Lmao and pathetic you may... Nothing you say will offend this Texan. Please kindly post away

(03-23-2012 11:19 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  

(03-23-2012 07:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-22-2012 10:08 PM)BigHouston Wrote:  Why such low blow pathetic statement quo??? The only critic I see here is you.

Are you really this stupid? "Gemini" wondered why, given his credentials, Lewis has yet to be inducted in the Hall. I thought about it and remembered that back at the height of the Phi Slamma dynasty, many did not consider the success of the Houston team to be the result of his coaching, which was often disparaged. I didn't say i agreed with that assessment, just that it was a common assessment of his coaching back then, which it was.

Sorry if that offended you ... not.

PS: Here is a quote from Otis Birdsong, basically saying the same thing, in the Houston Chronicle:

"The best thing that ever happened to coach Lewis and the worst thing that ever happened to coach Lewis was Phi Slama Jama," 1977 All-America guard Otis Birdsong said. "They were so good, it almost looked as if he wasn't coaching them."

There are plenty "he just rolled the ball out there" critics, but Lewis was more than just a master recruiter ...".

PS - I just found out Lewis is in the College Basketball Hall of Fame. It is the Naismith Hall he is not a member of.

That seems reasonable to me - his accomplishments warrant College Hall inclusion, but not Naismith inclusion.

Lmao and pathetic you may... Nothing you say will offend this Texan. Please kindly post away

Only delusional Houston fans think it is pathetic to believe Guy doesn't belong in Naismith. In the sane world, it is a common opinion.

(03-24-2012 05:20 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Only delusional Houston fans think it is pathetic to believe Guy doesn't belong in Naismith. In the sane world, it is a common opinion.

"The coaches I hated coaching against were the real good ones, and Guy was one of those" -- John Wooden

"So I'm sitting here at the Final Four in Houston and former Sports Illustrated star Curry Kirkpatrick reminds me that Guy V. Lewis -- the man who led the University of Houston for 30 years -- is not in the Basketball Hall of Fame. Are you kidding me?! Think about what he did for basketball in the state of Texas. He helped integrate the sport down here. This is a man who coached in five Final Fours! There are a lot of guys who never won a national championship that are enshrined in Springfield, Mass. Lewis also had three players in the top 50. He meant so much to the sport of college basketball." -- Dick Vitale

There are quite a few others with similar comments. Lewis took five teams to the Final Four, integrated basketball in the South, was responsible for organizing the Game of the Century, which propelled college basketball into what it has become today (in the 60s, Tournament games were on at 11PM and unwatched), and produced some of the best players in the history of college basketball (three of the NBA's Top 50 players), none of whom received the recruiting accolades of players at North Carolina, Kentucky, etc. As Olajuwon said, Lewis made him the player he became, and Hayes went from a lanky kid to the player of the year in '68. He should be in the Hall of Fame, and I'm not saying that because of bias or "delusion."

(03-26-2012 09:08 PM)Shasta77 Wrote:  

(03-24-2012 05:20 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  Only delusional Houston fans think it is pathetic to believe Guy doesn't belong in Naismith. In the sane world, it is a common opinion.

"The coaches I hated coaching against were the real good ones, and Guy was one of those" -- John Wooden

"So I'm sitting here at the Final Four in Houston and former Sports Illustrated star Curry Kirkpatrick reminds me that Guy V. Lewis -- the man who led the University of Houston for 30 years -- is not in the Basketball Hall of Fame. Are you kidding me?! Think about what he did for basketball in the state of Texas. He helped integrate the sport down here. This is a man who coached in five Final Fours! There are a lot of guys who never won a national championship that are enshrined in Springfield, Mass. Lewis also had three players in the top 50. He meant so much to the sport of college basketball." -- Dick Vitale

There are quite a few others with similar comments. Lewis took five teams to the Final Four, integrated basketball in the South, was responsible for organizing the Game of the Century, which propelled college basketball into what it has become today (in the 60s, Tournament games were on at 11PM and unwatched), and produced some of the best players in the history of college basketball (three of the NBA's Top 50 players), none of whom received the recruiting accolades of players at North Carolina, Kentucky, etc. As Olajuwon said, Lewis made him the player he became, and Hayes went from a lanky kid to the player of the year in '68. He should be in the Hall of Fame, and I'm not saying that because of bias or "delusion."

He is in the college basketball Hall of Fame, which is where he belongs.

(03-26-2012 11:49 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  He is in the college basketball Hall of Fame, which is where he belongs.

LOL!!

quo obviously doesn't know her history well enough to give an informed opinion... Otherwise, she'd know how influential Guy V. was in the evolution of the game (both on the court and off).

Whenever you see a dunk in the NCAA tourney, you can thank Guy V. on multiple levels.

He left his mark in MANY MANY ways... And his legacy has helped chart the course of what quo loves to rant about so much.

Little does she know...

They didn't call it The Game of the Century for nothing. Nobody needs to justify Guy V. to this twerp.

(03-26-2012 11:49 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  He is in the college basketball Hall of Fame, which is where he belongs.

Let's put this thread to bed.

Guy Lewis should be in the Springfield National Basketball Hall of Fame. Absolutely, completely and no question. The Hall is a pretty cool place, and it includes players, coaches, owners, referees, broadcasters, etc, from the pros, college level, and high school level.

The ridiculous "national championship" litmus test of yours is completely arbitrary and makes no sense, especially when you look at others already in the Hall, who are also very deserving, none of whom have national championships in college:

Bob Hurley, Sr (longtime New Jersey HS coach legend).
Ray Meyer (DePaul legend who never won a title).
Lou Carnesecca (St John's legend who never won a title).
Frank Keaney (Rhode Island legend who invented the fast break, but never won a title).
Dave Gavitt (Providence legend who created the Big East, etc, but never won a title).
I came up with these names after just after a quick 10-second browse of the Hall Members .

Hell, last year the Hall inducted Arvydas Sabonis and Dennis Rodman... but somehow Guy Lewis isn't deserving?

Game of the Century

Phi Slamma Jamma

Usually I try to stay out of arguments like this, but once it hit the 4th page, and because (in my opinion) one side of the argument was so completely off base, I couldn't help myself from posting here.

(03-27-2012 10:06 AM)billyjack Wrote:  

(03-26-2012 11:49 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  He is in the college basketball Hall of Fame, which is where he belongs.

Let's put this thread to bed.

Guy Lewis should be in the Springfield National Basketball Hall of Fame. Absolutely, completely and no question. The Hall is a pretty cool place, and it includes players, coaches, owners, referees, broadcasters, etc, from the pros, college level, and high school level.

The ridiculous "national championship" litmus test of yours is completely arbitrary and makes no sense, especially when you look at others already in the Hall, who are also very deserving, none of whom have national championships in college:

Bob Hurley, Sr (longtime New Jersey HS coach legend).
Ray Meyer (DePaul legend who never won a title).
Lou Carnesecca (St John's legend who never won a title).
Frank Keaney (Rhode Island legend who invented the fast break, but never won a title).
Dave Gavitt (Providence legend who created the Big East, etc, but never won a title).
I came up with these names after just after a quick 10-second browse of the Hall Members .

Hell, last year the Hall inducted Arvydas Sabonis and Dennis Rodman... but somehow Guy Lewis isn't deserving?

Game of the Century

Phi Slamma Jamma

Usually I try to stay out of arguments like this, but once it hit the 4th page, and because (in my opinion) one side of the argument was so completely off base, I couldn't help myself from posting here.

Guy Lewis Hall Of Fame? No doubt.

(03-27-2012 12:58 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  Whenever you see a dunk in the NCAA tourney, you can thank Guy V. on multiple levels.

Amen to that! Here's a nice article on the history of the dunk in college football. While many think that Alcindor was the reason for the ban, he may have been part of the reason, but maybe not the primary reason.
John Wooden: "Some on the committee told me Lewis’ name did come up in the discussion, but he wasn’t the reason."

article Wrote:Wooden believes another influential factor in the dunk being banned occurred before his team played the University of Houston in a 1967 national semifinal game in Louisville, Kentucky.

In pregame warm-ups, the Cougars put on a display of dunking. Unfortunately, the basket couldn’t take the relentless onslaught of slam dunks.

“They were hanging on the rim,” Wooden said. “As I recall, I think they had to come out with ladders and bend the baskets back up.”

All of that took place under the watchful eyes of rules committee members, who met at the Final Four site.

Then-Houston coach Guy Lewis remembered it that way, too. He said he taught the dunk in practice and his team’s strategy was to take the ball strong to the basket against Alcindor.

In a question-and-answer session with The Sporting News, he said, “Coach Wooden told (Alcindor), ‘It wasn’t you that caused them to outlaw the dunk. It was that crazy bunch from Houston.’ And that’s probably the truth.”

Here's another great article how Lewis' Cougars influenced the future of college basketball with his philosophy of the dunk. Sorry Louisville fans. This game may hurt you as much as the next game hurts us UH fans. The 1983 UH-Louisville game. If you want to see the highest level of college basketball, this is it.

Note a couple of things in the article:
On recruiting Drexler: "A lot of people didn't recruit him. Even Rice University didn't want him. But he was made for our team with that great speed." How does a player Rice doesn't want make it to the NBA as a first rounder and becomes an HOFer? Maybe good college coaching.

On recruiting Olajuwon: Lewis-"Akeem was a long shot as a recruit. He couldn't do anything but run and jump. And, boy, his shooting needed work. I worked with him for 30 minutes, every day, just on his shooting." and Bonk-"Lewis thought so little of Akeem that when Akeem got to Houston, he had to take a taxi from the airport. No one was there from the university to meet him." How does he go from not being able to shoot to being the #1 pick in the draft, NBA MVP, and HOFer? It probably started with some college coaching.

(03-27-2012 10:06 AM)billyjack Wrote:  

(03-26-2012 11:49 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  He is in the college basketball Hall of Fame, which is where he belongs.

Let's put this thread to bed.

Guy Lewis should be in the Springfield National Basketball Hall of Fame. Absolutely, completely and no question. The Hall is a pretty cool place, and it includes players, coaches, owners, referees, broadcasters, etc, from the pros, college level, and high school level.

The ridiculous "national championship" litmus test of yours is completely arbitrary and makes no sense, especially when you look at others already in the Hall, who are also very deserving, none of whom have national championships in college:

Bob Hurley, Sr (longtime New Jersey HS coach legend).
Ray Meyer (DePaul legend who never won a title).
Lou Carnesecca (St John's legend who never won a title).
Frank Keaney (Rhode Island legend who invented the fast break, but never won a title).
Dave Gavitt (Providence legend who created the Big East, etc, but never won a title).
I came up with these names after just after a quick 10-second browse of the Hall Members .

Hell, last year the Hall inducted Arvydas Sabonis and Dennis Rodman... but somehow Guy Lewis isn't deserving?

Game of the Century

Phi Slamma Jamma

Usually I try to stay out of arguments like this, but once it hit the 4th page, and because (in my opinion) one side of the argument was so completely off base, I couldn't help myself from posting here.

How many times does it have to be said that just because basketball personages less qualified and deserving of the Hall than Lewis are in the Hall this does not mean Lewis belongs?

Lewis was a great coach and part of some iconic college basketball moments, but not enough to merit Naismith inclusion.

(03-28-2012 08:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  How many times does it have to be said that just because basketball personages less qualified and deserving of the Hall than Lewis are in the Hall this does not mean Lewis belongs?

Lewis was a great coach and part of some iconic college basketball moments, but not enough to merit Naismith inclusion.

Significance to the evolution of the game MOST DEFINITELY warrants Naismith inclusion. Otherwise, the HOF leaves holes in the historical record and cheapens the award itself.

As for comparing stats with present members, THAT'S HOW ALMOST EVERY HALL OF FAME VOTER (in ALL sports) weighs their votes.

Life is about setting and living up to standards. Your litmus test is even a standard. Obviously Guy V. doesn't warrant inclusion in the quo Hall of Fame. I'm sure he'd be broken up about it.
However, the Naismith has already set enough precedents. By their standards, he DOES "merit" inclusion.

(03-28-2012 11:29 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(03-28-2012 08:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  How many times does it have to be said that just because basketball personages less qualified and deserving of the Hall than Lewis are in the Hall this does not mean Lewis belongs?

Lewis was a great coach and part of some iconic college basketball moments, but not enough to merit Naismith inclusion.

Significance to the evolution of the game MOST DEFINITELY warrants Naismith inclusion. Otherwise, the HOF leaves holes in the historical record and cheapens the award itself.

As for comparing stats with present members, THAT'S HOW ALMOST EVERY HALL OF FAME VOTER (in ALL sports) weighs their votes .... the Naismith has already set enough precedents. By their standards, he DOES "merit" inclusion.

Typical Big East Homer illogic - if that's how almost every HoF voter weighs their votes, then why hasn't Lewis gotten in? Why isn't he even a finalist this year?

Five Final Fours and participation in iconic moments/teams is surely praiseworthy, and that's why Lewis is in the College HoF. But seems like the Naismith Hall should have higher standards, and Lewis just doesn't meet them. Just because the Hall voters in the past have made mistakes by admitting guys less worthy than Lewis shouldn't mean they compound the mistake by admitting him.

(03-28-2012 02:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-28-2012 11:29 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(03-28-2012 08:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  How many times does it have to be said that just because basketball personages less qualified and deserving of the Hall than Lewis are in the Hall this does not mean Lewis belongs?

Lewis was a great coach and part of some iconic college basketball moments, but not enough to merit Naismith inclusion.

Significance to the evolution of the game MOST DEFINITELY warrants Naismith inclusion. Otherwise, the HOF leaves holes in the historical record and cheapens the award itself.

As for comparing stats with present members, THAT'S HOW ALMOST EVERY HALL OF FAME VOTER (in ALL sports) weighs their votes .... the Naismith has already set enough precedents. By their standards, he DOES "merit" inclusion.

Typical Big East Homer illogic - if that's how almost every HoF voter weighs their votes, then why hasn't Lewis gotten in? Why isn't he even a finalist this year?

Five Final Fours and participation in iconic moments/teams is surely praiseworthy, and that's why Lewis is in the College HoF. But seems like the Naismith Hall should have higher standards, and Lewis just doesn't meet them. Just because the Hall voters in the past have made mistakes by admitting guys less worthy than Lewis shouldn't mean they compound the mistake by admitting him.

Here's a high standard and precedent for you... The AP College Coach of the Year has been awarded since 1967. Only six coaches have won that award more than once. 4 are in the Naismith Hall of Fame. 1 is not eligible because he is still active with less than 26 years of coaching. The only one who is eligible but not in is Lewis.

And before you ask, one of those coaches never even made it to the Final Four. Another won an NIT tournament in his 3rd year in 1945 so you might consider that a national championship, but many consider Oklahoma A&M (winner of the NCAA tournament) to be the champs that year. He only made 2 other final fours, 1943 and 1979.

(03-29-2012 12:07 AM)NTXCoog Wrote:  

(03-28-2012 02:06 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(03-28-2012 11:29 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  

(03-28-2012 08:12 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  How many times does it have to be said that just because basketball personages less qualified and deserving of the Hall than Lewis are in the Hall this does not mean Lewis belongs?

Lewis was a great coach and part of some iconic college basketball moments, but not enough to merit Naismith inclusion.

Significance to the evolution of the game MOST DEFINITELY warrants Naismith inclusion. Otherwise, the HOF leaves holes in the historical record and cheapens the award itself.

As for comparing stats with present members, THAT'S HOW ALMOST EVERY HALL OF FAME VOTER (in ALL sports) weighs their votes .... the Naismith has already set enough precedents. By their standards, he DOES "merit" inclusion.

Typical Big East Homer illogic - if that's how almost every HoF voter weighs their votes, then why hasn't Lewis gotten in? Why isn't he even a finalist this year?

Five Final Fours and participation in iconic moments/teams is surely praiseworthy, and that's why Lewis is in the College HoF. But seems like the Naismith Hall should have higher standards, and Lewis just doesn't meet them. Just because the Hall voters in the past have made mistakes by admitting guys less worthy than Lewis shouldn't mean they compound the mistake by admitting him.

Here's a high standard and precedent for you... The AP College Coach of the Year has been awarded since 1967. Only six coaches have won that award more than once. 4 are in the Naismith Hall of Fame. 1 is not eligible because he is still active with less than 26 years of coaching. The only one who is eligible but not in is Lewis.

And before you ask, one of those coaches never even made it to the Final Four. Another won an NIT tournament in his 3rd year in 1945 so you might consider that a national championship, but many consider Oklahoma A&M (winner of the NCAA tournament) to be the champs that year. He only made 2 other final fours, 1943 and 1979.

I have agreed all along that Lewis has better credentials than several coaches in the hall. But my belief is that the Naismith hall voters have too often used watered-down standards and have let undeserving coaches in. They should not compound those errors by letting Lewis in.

(03-22-2012 07:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  I do remember that back in the phi slamma era Lewis's coaching was often disparaged. Critics said he just rolled the ball out on the court and let his athletes do their thing ....

Has there EVER been a coach who simply rolled the ball out on the court and made 5 Final 4s?