(03-17-2012 08:38 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  2012-2013
2013-2014

That's the number of seasons he has left to show improvement.

agreed...

(03-18-2012 08:45 AM)UofMemphis Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 08:38 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  2012-2013
2013-2014

That's the number of seasons he has left to show improvement.

agreed...

He just showed some improvement.

Just not enough to satisfy everyone on MT.org.

Is losing in the first round to a 9 seed by 7 an improvement over losing to a 5 seed at the buzzer?

Is success only measured by the outcome of one single game?

The 12th of never (and that's a long long time)

(03-18-2012 09:10 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  Is success only measured by the outcome of one single game?

Depends on how much people bet?

With more people than every gambling on college sports...when 18-20 year old kids make a few mistakes or don't play up to their potential and many fans/gamblers lose thousands of $$$$ then yes, an outcome of just one game (even those that they win but don't cover the spread) can decide success or failure to some.

Its sad that any adult those $$$$ on college games...as many times that takes a lot of the enjoyment out of it.

PS. Even on message boards...one can pick up hints as to which posters threw $$$ on games either before, during and especially after.

I would never want to bet on a tigers game.

It would take all the fun out of the game.

(03-18-2012 09:27 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  I would never want to bet on a tigers game.

It would take all the fun out of the game.

Not if you win.

(03-18-2012 09:10 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  Is success only measured by the outcome of one single game?

In the world of college basketball, yes. Was 2008 a more successful season @ Memphis than 2007? Was 2007 more successful than 2009? Success in the NCAA tournament is how the season is measured.

The bottom line is we should win CUSA every year. Our budget dwarfs anyone else in the league. We recruit on a much higher level and our program is far more visible than anyone else. We draw more in one game than half our league draws in five. C-USA is Memphis and everyone else. When we move to the Big East, we will be again competing against schools with similar resources, but until then, winning C-USA should be the expectation.

(03-18-2012 09:55 AM)Original Sabretooth Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 09:10 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  Is success only measured by the outcome of one single game?

In the world of college basketball, yes. Was 2008 a more successful season @ Memphis than 2007? Was 2007 more successful than 2009? Success in the NCAA tournament is how the season is measured.

The bottom line is we should win CUSA every year. Our budget dwarfs anyone else in the league. We recruit on a much higher level and our program is far more visible than anyone else. We draw more in one game than half our league draws in five. C-USA is Memphis and everyone else. When we move to the Big East, we will be again competing against schools with similar resources, but until then, winning C-USA should be the expectation.

In comparing the two seasons:

2010-11
Win CUSA Regular Season: Fail
Win CUSA Tournament: Succeed
Make NCAA Tournament: Succeed
Advance in Tournament: Fail
Win National Championship: Fail

2011-12
Win CUSA Regular Season: Succeed
Win CUSA Tournament: Succeed
Make NCAA Tournament: Succeed
Advance in Tournament: Fail
Win National Championship: Fail


Was there incremental improvement year over year? Depends on how you look at it. If you consider winning the regular season CUSA title improvement, then yes.

Otherwise, the two season are basically the same. You could argue there was no improvement because we returned a team of players that received extensive playing time their freshman years, and ended the season with the exact same result as the previous year.

Either way we did make the tournament, but we did not advance, and we did not come close to winning the national title.

I hope most fans still hold national titles as the ultimate benchmark for this program.

(03-18-2012 09:49 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 09:27 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  I would never want to bet on a tigers game.

It would take all the fun out of the game.

Not if you win.

I don't wanna be thinking about money, I wanna enjoy the game.

(03-18-2012 10:05 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 09:55 AM)Original Sabretooth Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 09:10 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  Is success only measured by the outcome of one single game?

In the world of college basketball, yes. Was 2008 a more successful season @ Memphis than 2007? Was 2007 more successful than 2009? Success in the NCAA tournament is how the season is measured.

The bottom line is we should win CUSA every year. Our budget dwarfs anyone else in the league. We recruit on a much higher level and our program is far more visible than anyone else. We draw more in one game than half our league draws in five. C-USA is Memphis and everyone else. When we move to the Big East, we will be again competing against schools with similar resources, but until then, winning C-USA should be the expectation.

In comparing the two seasons:

2010-11
Win CUSA Regular Season: Fail
Win CUSA Tournament: Succeed
Make NCAA Tournament: Succeed
Advance in Tournament: Fail
Win National Championship: Fail

2011-12
Win CUSA Regular Season: Succeed
Win CUSA Tournament: Succeed
Make NCAA Tournament: Succeed
Advance in Tournament: Fail
Win National Championship: Fail


Was there incremental improvement year over year? Depends on how you look at it. If you consider winning the regular season CUSA title improvement, then yes.

Otherwise, the two season are basically the same. You could argue there was no improvement because we returned a team of players that received extensive playing time their freshman years, and ended the season with the exact same result as the previous year.

Either way we did make the tournament, but we did not advance, and we did not come close to winning the national title.

I hope most fans still hold national titles as the ultimate benchmark for this program.

The two seasons are not even close to the same. The level of competition was on a whole other level. Its in the numbers too. We were playing Texas A& M corpus christi & arky st to buzzer beaters last year. We lost the conf regular season by several games last year.

Expecting the last 2 teams to have a legit shot at the national title is just wrong as it gets.

WE did show marked improvement this year, both individually and team.

(03-18-2012 02:02 AM)FORealTigerFan Wrote:  I don't think we will have to worry about it. With all the heat he took this year from the fans and with the constant pain of dealing with headcase players refusing to buy in/discipline issues he won't be around for another 2 years. He is going to take the first decent job that comes available. If Illinois doesn't get coach Smart they are coming after Pastner and I bet he takes the job. Regardless, I don't think he will stick around more than another season. Some of our fans will Eat him Alive if he loses a bunch of games in the Big East. He will get out before that happens.

I agree completely with this. If Pastner is offered another good job, I hope he takes it. Then I hope we get stuck with Tim Floyd, Derek Kellogg, Dana Altman or Tic Price clone. That is that it will take for some of the morons on this board to realize how good we have it.

If Pastner takes another job, I wouldn't in a million years call him a quitter. I would be thrilled that he would be able to see past his loyalty and make the best decision for himself.

(03-18-2012 10:31 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 10:05 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 09:55 AM)Original Sabretooth Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 09:10 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  Is success only measured by the outcome of one single game?

In the world of college basketball, yes. Was 2008 a more successful season @ Memphis than 2007? Was 2007 more successful than 2009? Success in the NCAA tournament is how the season is measured.

The bottom line is we should win CUSA every year. Our budget dwarfs anyone else in the league. We recruit on a much higher level and our program is far more visible than anyone else. We draw more in one game than half our league draws in five. C-USA is Memphis and everyone else. When we move to the Big East, we will be again competing against schools with similar resources, but until then, winning C-USA should be the expectation.

In comparing the two seasons:

2010-11
Win CUSA Regular Season: Fail
Win CUSA Tournament: Succeed
Make NCAA Tournament: Succeed
Advance in Tournament: Fail
Win National Championship: Fail

2011-12
Win CUSA Regular Season: Succeed
Win CUSA Tournament: Succeed
Make NCAA Tournament: Succeed
Advance in Tournament: Fail
Win National Championship: Fail


Was there incremental improvement year over year? Depends on how you look at it. If you consider winning the regular season CUSA title improvement, then yes.

Otherwise, the two season are basically the same. You could argue there was no improvement because we returned a team of players that received extensive playing time their freshman years, and ended the season with the exact same result as the previous year.

Either way we did make the tournament, but we did not advance, and we did not come close to winning the national title.

I hope most fans still hold national titles as the ultimate benchmark for this program.

The two seasons are not even close to the same. The level of competition was on a whole other level. Its even in the numbers. We were playing Texas A& M corpus christi & arky st to buzzer beaters last year. We lost the conf regular season by several games last year.

Expecting the last 2 teams to have a legit shot at the national title is just wrong as it gets.

WE did show marked improvement this year, both individually and team.

The measure of success should not be who we play. It's about how we perform. We did not advance in the tournament either season, so our team did not achieve that objective. Agree?

And I missed where I said the teams had a legit shot to win the title. But shouldn't that still be a goal of the program? What do you think Josh would say?

(03-18-2012 11:12 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 02:02 AM)FORealTigerFan Wrote:  I don't think we will have to worry about it. With all the heat he took this year from the fans and with the constant pain of dealing with headcase players refusing to buy in/discipline issues he won't be around for another 2 years. He is going to take the first decent job that comes available. If Illinois doesn't get coach Smart they are coming after Pastner and I bet he takes the job. Regardless, I don't think he will stick around more than another season. Some of our fans will Eat him Alive if he loses a bunch of games in the Big East. He will get out before that happens.

I agree completely with this. If Pastner is offered another good job, I hope he takes it. Then I hope we get stuck with Tim Floyd, Derek Kellogg, Dana Altman or Tic Price clone. That is that it will take for some of the morons on this board to realize how good we have it.

If Pastner takes another job, I wouldn't in a million years call him a quitter. I would be thrilled that he would be able to see past his loyalty and make the best decision for himself.

I'd take Larry Eustachy.

(03-18-2012 11:12 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 02:02 AM)FORealTigerFan Wrote:  I don't think we will have to worry about it. With all the heat he took this year from the fans and with the constant pain of dealing with headcase players refusing to buy in/discipline issues he won't be around for another 2 years. He is going to take the first decent job that comes available. If Illinois doesn't get coach Smart they are coming after Pastner and I bet he takes the job. Regardless, I don't think he will stick around more than another season. Some of our fans will Eat him Alive if he loses a bunch of games in the Big East. He will get out before that happens.

I agree completely with this. If Pastner is offered another good job, I hope he takes it. Then I hope we get stuck with Tim Floyd, Derek Kellogg, Dana Altman or Tic Price clone. That is that it will take for some of the morons on this board to realize how good we have it.

If Pastner takes another job, I wouldn't in a million years call him a quitter. I would be thrilled that he would be able to see past his loyalty and make the best decision for himself.

If he has a better opportunity, he should take it. It's the same scenario for our players who are considering going pro.

Most reasonable fans wouldn't hold it against him.

(03-17-2012 04:25 PM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 04:19 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 08:53 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 08:40 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 08:38 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  If Pastner had a third straight year of no big non-conference wins, dominating CUSA, winning the CUSA tournament, and losing in the first round of the NCAA next year, I would hire a new big name coach to prepare us for the Big East.

Because 6 years of being a mediocre program going into a major basketball league will completely take away the goodwill of the four year run.

If Pastner has plateaued, then we will be a losing program in the Big East.

So you would have fired Tom Crean after last year or would you have fired Crean the year before?

Indiana was rockbottom.

Crean had to do literally what Cal had to do in 2000. The IU brand was tarnished, irrelevant to kids, and under NCAA penalties all while playing a Big Ten schedule. I think he deserved more time. If you had replaced Cal with Crean, you might not have recruited as many five stars, but you'd probably be in a better place right now. He had three seasons of underwhelming results, but was there real improvement each season?

I think Josh made improvement in CUSA play. He started dominating instead of barely winning. But I think that isn't a good test case because of the weakness of the conference opponents.

This is what bugs me. There has been noticeable, incremental improvement every season. How can people not see it?

Explain how you define it then to help them see it.

You have to be an idiot to not be able to see it and need an explanation. Since you aren't able to grasp the most simple concepts; here is the simplest concept I can come up with. I know it's useless but here goes...

2010
56 RPI
89 SOS
24 Wins

2011
32 RPI
47 SOS
25 Wins

2012
19 RPI
21 SOS
26 Wins

(03-18-2012 11:14 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 10:31 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 10:05 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 09:55 AM)Original Sabretooth Wrote:  [quote='Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas' pid='7702092' dateline='1332079828']
Is success only measured by the outcome of one single game?

Was there incremental improvement year over year? Depends on how you look at it. If you consider winning the regular season CUSA title improvement, then yes.

Otherwise, the two season are basically the same. You could argue there was no improvement because we returned a team of players that received extensive playing time their freshman years, and ended the season with the exact same result as the previous year.

Either way we did make the tournament, but we did not advance, and we did not come close to winning the national title.

I hope most fans still hold national titles as the ultimate benchmark for this program.

The two seasons are not even close to the same. The level of competition was on a whole other level. Its even in the numbers. We were playing Texas A& M corpus christi & arky st to buzzer beaters last year. We lost the conf regular season by several games last year.

Expecting the last 2 teams to have a legit shot at the national title is just wrong as it gets.

WE did show marked improvement this year, both individually and team.

The measure of success should not be who we play. It's about how we perform. We did not advance in the tournament either season, so our team did not achieve that objective. Agree?

Is that our sole objective? no

Is that our only measure of sucess? no

Did we show marked improvemnet this year? yes

(03-18-2012 11:17 AM)Stammers Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 04:25 PM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 04:19 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 08:53 AM)Latilleon Wrote:  

(03-17-2012 08:40 AM)Stammers Wrote:  So you would have fired Tom Crean after last year or would you have fired Crean the year before?

Indiana was rockbottom.

Crean had to do literally what Cal had to do in 2000. The IU brand was tarnished, irrelevant to kids, and under NCAA penalties all while playing a Big Ten schedule. I think he deserved more time. If you had replaced Cal with Crean, you might not have recruited as many five stars, but you'd probably be in a better place right now. He had three seasons of underwhelming results, but was there real improvement each season?

I think Josh made improvement in CUSA play. He started dominating instead of barely winning. But I think that isn't a good test case because of the weakness of the conference opponents.

This is what bugs me. There has been noticeable, incremental improvement every season. How can people not see it?

Explain how you define it then to help them see it.

You have to be an idiot to not be able to see it and need an explanation. Since you aren't able to grasp the most simple concepts; here is the simplest concept I can come up with. I know it's useless but here goes...

2010
56 RPI
89 SOS
24 Wins

2011
32 RPI
47 SOS
25 Wins

2012
19 RPI
21 SOS
26 Wins

Those are nice stats, Stammers. So are you saying Josh measures the success of the program on RPI and SOS? I would tend to disagree with you, and I'm sure Josh would as well.

I'll simplify it for you since you seem incapable of grasping this. Our program's success is measured on the following:

CUSA Regular Season Title
CUSA Tourney Title
Making the NCAA
Advancing
Winning the National Championship

So...

2010
CUSA Regular Season Title: Fail
CUSA Tourney Title: Fail
Making the NCAA: Fail
Advancing: Fail
Winning the National Championship: Fail

2011
CUSA Regular Season Title: Fail
CUSA Tourney Title: Succeed
Making the NCAA: Succeed
Advancing: Fail
Winning the National Championship: Fail

2012
CUSA Regular Season Title: Succeed
CUSA Tourney Title: Succeed
Making the NCAA: Succeed
Advancing: Fail
Winning the National Championship: Fail


So while your stats are nice to look at, they don't have any real effect on our team objectives as stated by our Coach.

And see, I can discredit your whole thesis without making personal attacks. I guess your personal attacks are an attempt to cover for your faulty premise.

(03-18-2012 11:20 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 11:14 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 10:31 AM)Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 10:05 AM)Sylvester Wrote:  

(03-18-2012 09:55 AM)Original Sabretooth Wrote:  [quote='Jedi Master Sipho-Dyas' pid='7702092' dateline='1332079828']
Is success only measured by the outcome of one single game?

Was there incremental improvement year over year? Depends on how you look at it. If you consider winning the regular season CUSA title improvement, then yes.

Otherwise, the two season are basically the same. You could argue there was no improvement because we returned a team of players that received extensive playing time their freshman years, and ended the season with the exact same result as the previous year.

Either way we did make the tournament, but we did not advance, and we did not come close to winning the national title.

I hope most fans still hold national titles as the ultimate benchmark for this program.

The two seasons are not even close to the same. The level of competition was on a whole other level. Its even in the numbers. We were playing Texas A& M corpus christi & arky st to buzzer beaters last year. We lost the conf regular season by several games last year.

Expecting the last 2 teams to have a legit shot at the national title is just wrong as it gets.

WE did show marked improvement this year, both individually and team.

The measure of success should not be who we play. It's about how we perform. We did not advance in the tournament either season, so our team did not achieve that objective. Agree?

Is that our sole objective? no

Is that our only measure of sucess? no

Did we show marked improvemnet this year? yes

You can read my other posts to see what the multiple measures of success are for the program, and how we fared. I trust you are capable of that.