Gang,

USNEWS just came out with a new set of law school rankings.

Here's how the schools in the "new" Big East rank:

Georgetown #14
Notre Dame #22
SMU #51
Houston #57 EAT 'EM UP COOGS!!!
Temple #58
UConn #62
Seton Hall #69
Cincy #69
St. John's #79
Rutgers #82
DePaul #89
Louisville #89
Marquette #96
Villanova #101
Memphis NR

If I remember correctly Marquette just completed a new 200,000 sq.ft. Eckstein Hall law school.
Cincinnati is going to have to maybe move their school to a mixed use development, tear down the existing
building and build a new one. Hopefully they go design-build, which in Ohio, is finally an approved
delivery option vs. the pure Architect, prime bid method. Save some freaking money.

I don't know haw USN&WR goes about ranking law schools, but Memphis's is no slouch. If you judge (no pun intended) by percentage of graduates passing the bar exam, UofM's grads have been consistently first in the state of Tennessee (including Vanderbilt and other private schools), for decades. Take a look at this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/index.php

and this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/futurestudents/attend.php

We don't have a law school? Waaah!

(03-14-2012 08:19 AM)TampaKnight Wrote:  We don't have a law school? Waaah!

That's a good thing,less politicians running for congress. Lol!

(03-14-2012 05:16 AM)UH Law 97 Wrote:  Gang,

USNEWS just came out with a new set of law school rankings.

Here's how the schools in the "new" Big East rank:

Georgetown #14
Notre Dame #22
Houston #57 EAT 'EM UP COOGS!!!
Temple #58
UConn #62
Seton Hall #69
Cincy #69
St. John's #79
Rutgers #82
DePaul #89
Louisville #89
Marquette #96
Villanova #101
Memphis NR

Did SMU shut down its law school?
(We were #51 by the way)

DOH!!!!

What a SNAFU!!!!

Fixed!

(03-14-2012 08:09 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  I don't know haw USN&WR goes about ranking law schools, but Memphis's is no slouch. If you judge (no pun intended) by percentage of graduates passing the bar exam, UofM's grads have been consistently first in the state of Tennessee (including Vanderbilt and other private schools), for decades. Take a look at this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/index.php

and this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/futurestudents/attend.php

Bar exam passage rates are indeed ONE of the criteria that USNEWS uses in determining its law school rankings.

However, it is only ONE part of its multi-faceted methodology.

The truth is, bar passage rates don't necessarily mean that much. To some extent, they're a reflection of the degree to which a school teaches to the test. Moreover, bar passage rates tell us little about a school's resources, course offerings, faculty prestige, facilities, and perhaps most important of all, its admission standards and reputation among employers.

(03-14-2012 08:39 AM)UH Law 97 Wrote:  DOH!!!!

What a SNAFU!!!!

Fixed!

LOL. No problem. Our school's rankings have been falling the past few years as the legal market in Dallas has benefitted from being able to grab more T14 grads from out of state who ordinarily would be working in DC, Chicago, etc. Still a great place for a legal education, from what I am told by friends of mine who went to the law school.

(03-14-2012 08:43 AM)UH Law 97 Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 08:09 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  I don't know haw USN&WR goes about ranking law schools, but Memphis's is no slouch. If you judge (no pun intended) by percentage of graduates passing the bar exam, UofM's grads have been consistently first in the state of Tennessee (including Vanderbilt and other private schools), for decades. Take a look at this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/index.php

and this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/futurestudents/attend.php

Bar exam passage rates are indeed ONE of the criteria that USNEWS uses in determining its law school rankings.

However, it is only ONE part of its multi-faceted methodology.

The truth is, bar passage rates don't necessarily mean that much. To some extent, they're a reflection of the extent to which a school teaches to the test. Moreover, bar passage rates tell us little about a school's resources, course offerings, faculty prestige, facilities, and perhaps most important of all, its admission standards and reputation among employers.

This is very true. I've worked in large law firms and corporate legal departments and no one looks at the bar passage rate unless it's particularly bad. In the case of a school like Vandy, more grads may end up taking the bar in Georgia or New York instead of Tennessee, so their in-state bar passage rate is misleadingly lower. This is very common with schools that send a lot of grads out-of-state. Harvard actually has more people taking the bar for New York than it does for Massachusetts.

The US News rankings definitely have a lot of influence, especially if you're in the largest legal markets like NYC, Chicago, DC, LA and SF. Once you get past the top 14 schools (yes, the top 14 is specifically the cutoff) that draw national recruiting, hiring becomes much more regional. Whether it's right or wrong, the US News rankings actually have a lot more influence for law schools than they do for undergraduate programs. For the undergrad rankings, there's such a wide variety of focuses (public vs. private, research school vs. liberal arts school) that the needs of different students are very different. In contrast, law schools are actually fairly comparable regardless of whether they're public or private, so they accordingly have carried much more weight.

(03-14-2012 08:43 AM)UH Law 97 Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 08:09 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  I don't know haw USN&WR goes about ranking law schools, but Memphis's is no slouch. If you judge (no pun intended) by percentage of graduates passing the bar exam, UofM's grads have been consistently first in the state of Tennessee (including Vanderbilt and other private schools), for decades. Take a look at this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/index.php

and this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/futurestudents/attend.php

Bar exam passage rates are indeed ONE of the criteria that USNEWS uses in determining its law school rankings.

However, it is only ONE part of its multi-faceted methodology.

The truth is, bar passage rates don't necessarily mean that much. To some extent, they're a reflection of the extent to which a school teaches to the test. Moreover, bar passage rates tell us little about a school's resources, course offerings, faculty prestige, facilities, and perhaps most important of all, its admission standards and reputation among employers.

UH Law has a point. Another thing to consider is that more U of M Law graduates stay in state, instead of relocating to various parts of the country with varying bar exams.

However, one thing our law school has been trashed on is facilities...which were so bad accreditation was threatened. The facilities have been taken care of, in a spectacular way.



I wonder if that ranking doesn't nudge up a little. However, the next things to work on are (a) getting more graduates set up with jobs at graduation and (b) decreasing the student-faculty ratio.

(03-14-2012 08:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 08:43 AM)UH Law 97 Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 08:09 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  I don't know haw USN&WR goes about ranking law schools, but Memphis's is no slouch. If you judge (no pun intended) by percentage of graduates passing the bar exam, UofM's grads have been consistently first in the state of Tennessee (including Vanderbilt and other private schools), for decades. Take a look at this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/index.php

and this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/futurestudents/attend.php

Bar exam passage rates are indeed ONE of the criteria that USNEWS uses in determining its law school rankings.

However, it is only ONE part of its multi-faceted methodology.

The truth is, bar passage rates don't necessarily mean that much. To some extent, they're a reflection of the extent to which a school teaches to the test. Moreover, bar passage rates tell us little about a school's resources, course offerings, faculty prestige, facilities, and perhaps most important of all, its admission standards and reputation among employers.

This is very true. I've worked in large law firms and corporate legal departments and no one looks at the bar passage rate unless it's particularly bad. In the case of a school like Vandy, more grads may end up taking the bar in Georgia or New York instead of Tennessee, so their in-state bar passage rate is misleadingly lower. This is very common with schools that send a lot of grads out-of-state. Harvard actually has more people taking the bar for New York than it does for Massachusetts.

The US News rankings definitely have a lot of influence, especially if you're in the largest legal markets like NYC, Chicago, DC, LA and SF. Once you get past the top 14 schools (yes, the top 14 is specifically the cutoff) that draw national recruiting, hiring becomes much more regional. Whether it's right or wrong, the US News rankings actually have a lot more influence for law schools than they do for undergraduate programs. For the undergrad rankings, there's such a wide variety of focuses (public vs. private, research school vs. liberal arts school) that the needs of different students are very different. In contrast, law schools are actually fairly comparable regardless of whether they're public or private, so they accordingly have carried much more weight.

San Francisco?

Actually, HOUSTON is America's fifth largest legal job market.

Meh, academic rankings are often skewed by perception. If you are low on a list, take it with a grain of salt since it probably isn't accurate, if you are high on a list, act like a snob and keep up appearances

(03-14-2012 08:19 AM)TampaKnight Wrote:  We don't have a law school? Waaah!

I'm sure whenever FAMU Law finally folds, UCF will be right there to try to take over that law school and rebuild it the UCF way. It is in downtown Orlando anyway.

(03-14-2012 08:27 AM)CardFan1 Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 08:19 AM)TampaKnight Wrote:  We don't have a law school? Waaah!

That's a good thing,less politicians running for congress. Lol!

Precisely why it's a bad thing. It means your school has less political clout because lawyers make up such a large percentage of legislators.

(03-14-2012 09:25 AM)Wooglin157 Wrote:  

(03-14-2012 08:19 AM)TampaKnight Wrote:  We don't have a law school? Waaah!

I'm sure whenever FAMU Law finally folds, UCF will be right there to try to take over that law school and rebuild it the UCF way. It is in downtown Orlando anyway.

No reason to believe FAMU Law will ever fold. UCF is never going to have a law school, and frankly, it doesn't need one. The state has too many law schools as is.

Hasn't FAMU been in quite a bit of accreditation hell lately? With being on multiple probations and probably bleeding money? But yeah, the only way UCF has a shot at a law school would be to take over an existing one. No way a new one gets approved.

What the heck happened to UC. When I applied it was ranked 49? When I graduated it still was 54.

(03-14-2012 08:09 AM)Gray Avenger Wrote:  I don't know haw USN&WR goes about ranking law schools, but Memphis's is no slouch. If you judge (no pun intended) by percentage of graduates passing the bar exam, UofM's grads have been consistently first in the state of Tennessee (including Vanderbilt and other private schools), for decades. Take a look at this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/index.php

and this:
http://www.memphis.edu/law/futurestudents/attend.php

In the newest US News ranking scheme, a school that is "rank not published" is in the old 4th tier. The old 1st Tier-3rd Tier are ranked numerically to 145. The 4th tier is just listed alphabetically then. There's maybe like 2 or 3 schools in that 4th tier that are justifiable. The rest should be shut down.

(03-14-2012 09:29 AM)Wooglin157 Wrote:  Hasn't FAMU been in quite a bit of accreditation hell lately? With being on multiple probations and probably bleeding money? But yeah, the only way UCF has a shot at a law school would be to take over an existing one. No way a new one gets approved.

They are fully accredited by the ABA now. They had some problems back a number of years ago now. I am not aware of any current issues. And there's no way a law school bleeds money with all the idiots out there willing to pay for it. No idea if FAMU main campus is subsidizing the law school, but they're idiots if they are. They can easily raise tuition for the law school or enroll more students (FAMU main campus is doing this in an attempt to raise quality through quantity).

UCF missed the boat on getting a law school when they let Barry take over the old Orlando Law School on Colonial. Dr. Hitt carefully (and rightly imho) decided that if UCF went for the law school, it would endanger their ability to land the medical school. It was the right call. Med schools are infinitely more valuable to the university both in terms of academic prestige and research funding than law schools.

(03-14-2012 09:15 AM)UH Law 97 Wrote:  San Francisco?

Actually, HOUSTON is America's fifth largest legal job market.

Wouldn't doubt that Houston is up that high because of its sheer size and large presence of Fortune 500 companies (same thing with Dallas and Atlanta), but it also depends upon how you define the San Francisco market. I'm pretty sure that the ranking you're looking at defines San Francisco and San Jose/Silicon Valley as technically separate legal markets (correct me if I'm wrong), but they're a single market for practical purposes when it comes to who they hire, what they pay and where they live. The Bay Area is the highest paying legal market outside of New York (granted, it needs to be with the high cost of living) and has 2 of the very top law schools within its metro (Stanford and Berkeley) while still drawing a lot of interest from the top East Coast schools, so that's why SF is always considered to be a top tier legal market.