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Governed by the Dead
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Governed by the Dead
(03-12-2012 01:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  which the conservative Roberts court won't allow because corporations = people and money = speech

That's a pretty gross misstatement. Actually the problem that the Roberts court saw was that some non-biological "persons" (like unions) got to give money but others did not.

My own solution would be the Barry Goldwater solution. Only living, breathing persons can give money to any form of communication that mentions any political candidate or party by name. No unions, no corporations, no PACs, none of that. And no dollar limits but full and immediate disclosure (posted on the Internet within 10 minutes, if you can do it for natural gas trades then you can do it for political contributions).

It gets a little trickier for idea advertising. Disallowing corporations or trade associations or unions or other organizations from doing idea adverts is too great a restriction on free speech. I think the idea of drawing the line at mention of a candidate or party is reasonable, but I would think there might be other useful standards if anyone would care to suggest one. Obviously there would have to be some regulations, and case law, around just how clearly the candidate/party must be named/suggested in the advert. Does having a Paul Ryan look-alike throw granny off the cliff meet the test?
(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 01:45 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-12-2012 01:45 PM
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smn1256 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Governed by the Dead
Some dumb laws aren't old, but new.

http://www.dumblaws.com/

It's illegal to wear body armor while committing murder in NJ

http://www.dumblaws.com/law/1175

And below are some of New York's laws:

Citizens may not greet each other by “putting one’s thumb to the nose and wiggling the fingers”.

A fine of $25 can be levied for flirting.

It is against the law to throw a ball at someone’s head for fun.

The penalty for jumping off a building is death.

New Yorkers cannot dissolve a marriage for irreconcilable differences, unless they both agree to it.

A person may not walk around on Sundays with an ice cream cone in his/her pocket.

While riding in an elevator, one must talk to no one, and fold his hands while looking toward the door.

Slippers are not to be worn after 10:00 PM.
03-12-2012 01:47 PM
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DrTorch Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Governed by the Dead
(03-12-2012 01:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  You elect Congressmen, those Congressmen enact laws. If you don't like the law anymore get your elected congressmen to change it or repeal it. I know special interests are a problem but there are limited ways to combat it, one being regulating their contributions (which the conservative Roberts court won't allow because corporations = people and money = speech) and the other being direct democracy, which is impractical for a nation of 300 million people.

Democracy isn't a workable solution anyway.

However, a much better way is term limits on laws.
03-12-2012 01:47 PM
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Max Power Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Governed by the Dead
(03-12-2012 01:45 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(03-12-2012 01:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  which the conservative Roberts court won't allow because corporations = people and money = speech

That's a pretty gross misstatement. Actually the problem that the Roberts court saw was that some non-biological "persons" (like unions) got to give money but others did not.

My own solution would be the Barry Goldwater solution. Only living, breathing persons can give money to any form of communication that mentions any political candidate or party by name. No unions, no corporations, no PACs, none of that. And no dollar limits but full and immediate disclosure (posted on the Internet within 10 minutes, if you can do it for natural gas trades then you can do it for political contributions).

It gets a little trickier for idea advertising. Disallowing corporations or trade associations or unions or other organizations from doing idea adverts is too great a restriction on free speech. I think the idea of drawing the line at mention of a candidate or party is reasonable, but I would think there might be other useful standards if anyone would care to suggest one. Obviously there would have to be some regulations, and case law, around just how clearly the candidate/party must be named/suggested in the advert. Does having a Paul Ryan look-alike throw granny off the cliff meet the test?

That's not the reason for the holding in Citizens United. There had been that distinction previously but McCain-Feingold prohibited unions just as it did corporations. Regardless of the reason the Roberts court could have gone one of two ways--recognizing corporations/associations as people or not and their expenditures as speech or not.

The political activity prohibition on 501c3 corporations could apply to your "idea test." It's tricky though to determine when ads become political.

We need dollar limits. The only reason Newt Gingrich is still in the race is because he has this one sugar daddy casino owner in Las Vegas who keeps writing him 7 figure checks.
03-12-2012 02:35 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
Just an old rugby coach
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Posts: 80,845
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Post: #25
RE: Governed by the Dead
(03-12-2012 02:35 PM)Max Power Wrote:  That's not the reason for the holding in Citizens United. There had been that distinction previously but McCain-Feingold prohibited unions just as it did corporations. Regardless of the reason the Roberts court could have gone one of two ways--recognizing corporations/associations as people or not and their expenditures as speech or not.
The political activity prohibition on 501c3 corporations could apply to your "idea test." It's tricky though to determine when ads become political.
We need dollar limits. The only reason Newt Gingrich is still in the race is because he has this one sugar daddy casino owner in Las Vegas who keeps writing him 7 figure checks.

As you are certainly well aware, the stated reasoning in a Supreme Court opinion is often not the actual political reason behind the decision.

McCain-Feingold allowed certain non-human entities to make campaign donations. As I understand it, under McC-F unions could funnel contributions through separate single-purpose entities, as long as the funds don't come out of union general funds; correct me if that's a misunderstanding. All the Supreme Court did, in effect, was say that if you're going to allow some non-humans to contribute, you have to let all non-humans contribute. I think basic fairness demands that at a minimum.

As I said, my approach would be to allow NO non-humans to contribute. I think we agree that the devil would be in the details of defining exactly where the firewall gets placed, and I think we agree that there could be problems. But I still think we'd do better to implement the general principle and let the courts make law around that.

Everybody knows about Newt's sugar daddy. As long as it's known, people can make decisions honestly. I think he's less of a problem than Obama's unknown contributors from 2008, but I'm sure you disagree there, and neither of us is going to change the other's mind by arguing, so let's just agree to disagree on that one.

If you impose any sorts of limits, before the ink is dry people are already working overtime to figure out how to get around them. That means limits essentially never work. I don't think any objective observer would conclude that McCain-Feingold was a successful effort.

So do it with full disclosure, not limits.

And I would consider making political contributions taxable income to the recipients, but continue to be nondeductible to contributors. That way if there's any fraud, it's tax evasion which is an easy conviction. U would unquestionably require that any funds contributed indirectly (such as through PACs) be taxable income to the intermediary, without the expenditures being deductible expenses.

I would also impose a maximum spending cap on any election. You can spend, say, $1 for every person who voted the last time the position was contested. That's it. That would take the big money out of the equation. You could set it up so that any money raised over the maximum spending limit (and any taxes collected if you taxed contributions) went into a fund to a) run elections and b) provide equalization funding to less well-funded candidates.
(This post was last modified: 03-12-2012 02:54 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
03-12-2012 02:52 PM
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