Quote:I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that it is easier to win in basketball than football. I understand your argument that you need 45 guys to win in football, and only 8 or 9 to win in basketball.

Akron- If Zeke Marshall is out of their line up their record is worse than ours. Instead they're the youngest team in the MAC and 11-1. I was being generous saying you need 3 go to players and 4 or 5 roll players. In this league you can do it with ONE great player (Szczerbiak, Kamen, Antonio Daniels, Kenny Battle, Bonzie Wells). One very solid recruiting class can set you up, and that might only be 2 or 3 players. In football you have to strike it rich not only at the skill positions, but you have to do it regularly to add depth, because players go down like flies in that sport.

(02-22-2012 11:20 PM)EA3 Wrote:  

(02-22-2012 11:12 PM)Nacho Wrote:  There are sun shine blowers and then their are realists. I'm a realist. This year has been a disappointment.

I think it's a disappointment for sure. But as a fan, I have two choices:

1. Whine and complain about everything that hasn't happened according to plan.

2. Acknowledge the poor play and mistakes, and move on with a positive attitude.

I'll choose #2 every time.

EA3, we're going to definitely need you around for fb season.

(02-22-2012 11:20 PM)EA3 Wrote:  

(02-22-2012 11:12 PM)Nacho Wrote:  There are sun shine blowers and then their are realists. I'm a realist. This year has been a disappointment.

I think it's a disappointment for sure. But as a fan, I have two choices:

1. Whine and complain about everything that hasn't happened according to plan.

2. Acknowledge the poor play and mistakes, and move on with a positive attitude.

I'll choose #2 every time.

Yeah, I tried 2 for the better part of December and January, and after 8 or 9 major letdowns was driven to 1. Maybe they can win back my affections in the stretch. That seems to have been Hawkins modus operandi in recent years.

(02-22-2012 11:29 PM)Chipdip Wrote:  

Quote:I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that it is easier to win in basketball than football. I understand your argument that you need 45 guys to win in football, and only 8 or 9 to win in basketball.

Akron- If Zeke Marshall is out of their line up their record is worse than ours. Instead they're the youngest team in the MAC and 11-1. I was being generous saying you need 3 go to players and 4 or 5 roll players. In this league you can do it with ONE great player (Szczerbiak, Kamen, Antonio Daniels, Kenny Battle, Bonzie Wells). One very solid recruiting class can set you up, and that might only be 2 or 3 players. In football you have to strike it rich not only at the skill positions, but you have to do it regularly to add depth, because players go down like flies in that sport.

I'm not sure how either of those scenarios is reality.

Marshall is extremely over rated IMO. Take him out and replace him with Treadwell, they probably lose 1 or 2 more games. Young or not, Dambrot has assembled the most talented roster in the MAC.

You can't win with just one player in the MAC nowadays. Heck, we came in second with Kool and Reitz, and 4-6 role players. You absolutely need three studs to win our league.

Again, I understand the pure number of players argument, but I counter with the following: what's more likely, turning an average football player into a stud or an average basketball player? It's easier in football because it's all about discipline. Skill trumps in basketball most times. Discipline trumps in football.

Our football team is a good example, our offense performed like studs 90% of the time. Our defense had 3 or 4 guys performing like studs. Despite not having the required 45 guys playing at a high level, we still won 7 games and went to a bowl.

(02-21-2012 08:23 PM)Chipdip Wrote:  

Quote:I only read what you have written. If you can't remember which persona wrote what I can't help you.

Your not a Bronco fan. Your a piece of work. Seriously dude, you need help. And wish the best of luck in getting it.

Finally, a sentence that doesn't sound like I'm reading Hamlet. Perhaps you should have phrased it in more familiar terms. "To be a Bronco fan or not to be a Bronco fan, that is the question!"

Look, I get it. You've been to a couple of games, said hi to a couple of players, they said hi back. With that you wrote a 12,000 word dissertation on why we should admire this group in spite of them letting us down week after week after week.

I'm sure they're fine young men. They got 100k in free education. There are thousands of fans of Duke, Cuse, MSU, etc. ragging on the coach, and ragging on the players. Clearly, that's not allowable here in the little leagues of D-1 sports, as there's only a dozen or so true blue fans here and many equate WMU sports to watching Gobles play. We're not dropping $5 into a envelope at the door and a buck for the 50-50 raffle, these are D-1 sports patrons dropping hundreds sometimes thousands of dollars for entertainment. As one of those patrons I just don't feel I got my moneys worth this year from this crew or this coach. Over scheduled, badly prepared, underperforming, and at times they quit (see Bugs game). If those opinions equate to being mentally deranged then give me the the keys to the asylum. I truly hope that they run the table and prove me wrong, but the clock is quickly winding down.

No problem calling Hawk out. He's an adult and gets compensated handsomely to raise the bar and keep it there. His record is average at best. Many have been crystal clear as to his shortcomings.

Having a 50+ adult calling the kids out for not winning and making it personal is the issue. Cloak it with "PSL", "Westside", or using sociological twists or justifying because you chose to spend $300 to watch them doesnt cut it. It has been long standing and isnt an isolated incident. You don't need keys to an asylum you need a clue.

And it's Hemingway not Hamlet. Nacho now thinks you eat at Dennys.

If you guys were at Burdicks right now, there would be potential for a ***** slap and calling someone a pud. (Mikey's was probably all in fun though.)

This is a MAC thing. You don't talk about player performance when talking about MAC players, because we're just a small time rinky dink little D-1 program where the players will give you 2 minutes of their time because they're shocked anyone even knows who they are.

Not the case in "real college basketball." Where message boards draw fans by the thousands, and player and coaching critique is fair game. We are what we are. A dozen or so die-hard fans. Some who are lap dog jock sniffers, because the program has let them peek into their world of D-1 athletics. Some who believe that the same standards that apply to critiquing athletes in high school apply at the D-1 level as well. Finally we have the, "I'm frustrated but don't want to rock the boat crowd, followed by the small minority who express their true feelings as they do on the"................real D-1 message boards that attract thousands and thousands of posters.

(02-23-2012 12:38 AM)Chipdip Wrote:  This is a MAC thing. You don't talk about player performance when talking about MAC players, because we're just a small time rinky dink little D-1 program where the players will give you 2 minutes of their time because they're shocked anyone even knows who they are.

Not the case in "real college basketball." Where message boards draw fans by the thousands, and player and coaching critique is fair game. We are what we are. A dozen or so die-hard fans. Some who are lap dog jock sniffers, because the program has let them peek into their world of D-1 athletics. Some who believe that the same standards that apply to critiquing athletes in high school apply at the D-1 level as well. Finally we have the, "I'm frustrated but don't want to rock the boat crowd, followed by the small minority who express their true feelings as they do on the"................real D-1 message boards that attract thousands and thousands of posters.

You all should have been at the MSU board when MSU was losing by 8 with 5 minutes to go... It was like the end of the world.

Quote:If you guys were at Burdicks right now, there would be potential for a ***** slap and calling someone a pud. (Mikey's was probably all in fun though.)

I'm sure GBL is a wonderful guy. I know for a fact that DB is a very good person. We just have specific philosophical differences that tend to spill over onto anything and everything. DB can be a prick, I can be a prick. In GBL's case, his values regarding player critique (at any level) go to a much higher degree than mine. While I tip my hat to him for his high morals, I prefer to treat this forum as place to vent and air my grievances (kind of like Festevess). I could care less about garnering brownie points with the posters, the players, or the staff. I don't give a $hit of my values don't jibe with yours. That's how it's done on "the real forums."

GBL wants to apply the same standards that are applied to high school fans, applied to a D-1 basketball program. That's not realistic in my opinion because they're two different sets of animals (one plays for the fun of it and one is playing w/100k in free education and another 100k in perks (travel, world enlightenment, networking, etc). Throughout the majority of college basketball forums that standard of decorum is not applied. It garners traction here only because you can count our online fanbase on your fingers and toes. Here 4 voices of reason equate to 1/3 of the forum. Anywhere else, 4 voices of reason are drowned out by 9000 posters calling Matt Thorton a waste of a scholarship.

Chip, it is safe to say that I'll never "sniff" your jock................

EA3, you and I will have to meet sometime, I like your style. I'm a #2 kind of man.

Always proud to be a Bronco.

You know, I hate this "we are a small d-1 program, we are only a mid-major, we can afford to be average" bullcrap. Tell me, am I right or am I wrong, but if I recall, Gonzaga and Butler are classified as mid-majors. Now, we think of them more of which as a powerhouse program. So this whole thing that we are just a small program is just nonsense. There is always room to improve. Butler and Gonzaga were once in our position, now look at them.

I am not trying to make it seem like I am calling for Hawks head. I must admit, we are a better program under him, we usually win 20 or so games every season, we always come out with the MAC West. But the MAC West title does not mean anything anymore, especially when you are competing against EMU for it.

I fully anticipate a nice attack on this one..

and dont get me wrong, I go with option 2 a lot. Hell, I am still planning on going to Cleveland this year because I still think we have a talented enough team to get us through there.

(02-23-2012 11:50 AM)JBStemp5 Wrote:  You know, I hate this "we are a small d-1 program, we are only a mid-major, we can afford to be average" bullcrap. Tell me, am I right or am I wrong, but if I recall, Gonzaga and Butler are classified as mid-majors. Now, we think of them more of which as a powerhouse program. So this whole thing that we are just a small program is just nonsense. There is always room to improve. Butler and Gonzaga were once in our position, now look at them.

I am not trying to make it seem like I am calling for Hawks head. I must admit, we are a better program under him, we usually win 20 or so games every season, we always come out with the MAC West. But the MAC West title does not mean anything anymore, especially when you are competing against EMU for it.

I fully anticipate a nice attack on this one..

Gonzaga and Butler don't play football, so they have a pretty major advantage there. I honestly don't think getting to their level is a realistic goal.

That doesn't mean you have to think small, though. I've mentioned Northern Iowa as a program that we could strive to match, although that might even be a stretch as they're FCS. Western Kentucky is another mid-major program that has balanced good basketball with D-1 football. But these programs are few and far between. Honestly, Ohio might be doing as well as any mid-major when it comes to sustained success in both FBS football and basketball. It'll be interesting to see if Southern Miss can keep it up in hoops. But the fact is, when you consider the top mid-major programs (Butler, Gonzaga, ODU, George Mason, Wichita, Creighton, St. Mary's, Oral Roberts, etc.), there's a definite trend there. The Mountain West and WAC have a couple exceptions, but those athletic programs tend to be better funded and many of the well-rounded ones are moving up to the "big-time" soon anyway.

All this is to say, we can certainly do better, but unless football goes away, the odds are heavily stacked against us becoming a power. And that goes for the MAC as a whole, too.

I guess my frustration stems from being average in the MAC itself, which I do feel is not good enough. I don't have any expectation of us transcending the MAC into mid-major dominance unless the basketball program can find some of that anonymous donor magic.

Butler is a non-scholarship FCS Football program. Western Kentucky just became a FBS Football school, went winless in their first year.

And none of the schools discussed have Hockey.

(02-23-2012 12:04 PM)MajorHoople Wrote:  Butler is a non-scholarship FCS Football program. Western Kentucky just became a FBS Football school, went winless in their first year.

And none of the schools discussed have Hockey.

I actually didn't realize Butler had any program, but I guess a non-scholly program doesn't change the point.

WKU as you mentioned hasn't exactly had success in football, and actually their basketball program has regressed in recent years (which may not be a coincidence). Like I said, it's not easy for mid-majors to balance success in both sports. Too much money needed.

(02-23-2012 09:31 AM)acer1 Wrote:  Chip, it is safe to say that I'll never "sniff" your jock................

EA3, you and I will have to meet sometime, I like your style. I'm a #2 kind of man.

Always proud to be a Bronco.

(02-23-2012 12:02 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(02-23-2012 11:50 AM)JBStemp5 Wrote:  You know, I hate this "we are a small d-1 program, we are only a mid-major, we can afford to be average" bullcrap. Tell me, am I right or am I wrong, but if I recall, Gonzaga and Butler are classified as mid-majors. Now, we think of them more of which as a powerhouse program. So this whole thing that we are just a small program is just nonsense. There is always room to improve. Butler and Gonzaga were once in our position, now look at them.

I am not trying to make it seem like I am calling for Hawks head. I must admit, we are a better program under him, we usually win 20 or so games every season, we always come out with the MAC West. But the MAC West title does not mean anything anymore, especially when you are competing against EMU for it.

I fully anticipate a nice attack on this one..

Gonzaga and Butler don't play football, so they have a pretty major advantage there. I honestly don't think getting to their level is a realistic goal.

That doesn't mean you have to think small, though. I've mentioned Northern Iowa as a program that we could strive to match, although that might even be a stretch as they're FCS. Western Kentucky is another mid-major program that has balanced good basketball with D-1 football. But these programs are few and far between. Honestly, Ohio might be doing as well as any mid-major when it comes to sustained success in both FBS football and basketball. It'll be interesting to see if Southern Miss can keep it up in hoops. But the fact is, when you consider the top mid-major programs (Butler, Gonzaga, ODU, George Mason, Wichita, Creighton, St. Mary's, Oral Roberts, etc.), there's a definite trend there. The Mountain West and WAC have a couple exceptions, but those athletic programs tend to be better funded and many of the well-rounded ones are moving up to the "big-time" soon anyway.

All this is to say, we can certainly do better, but unless football goes away, the odds are heavily stacked against us becoming a power. And that goes for the MAC as a whole, too.

Valid point. And I respect you for being even keeled with that response, unlike other posters.

But there is things that we can do to improve on, with not exactly having all the funding for it.

All very valid points above. I have 2 problems with the first option that really bother me:

1. If someone chooses NOT to complain about everything that has gone wrong and the perceived shortcomings of our coaches, they are immediately branded as someone who accepts mediocrity. That's garbage IMO. One set of circumstances does not necessarilty equate to a certain conclusion.

2. If someone chooses to complain about everything that goes wrong and calls for our head coaches to be fired on a public message board, it serves of little value IMO. I highly doubt that KB or President Dunn checks on the comments and bases their course of action on what we write. I trust them to make positive decisions for our athletic programs. IMO it's easier to call for someone's job than it is to support them when things don't go our way. Reality tells me we can't win 20 games every year, we can't go to the NCAA tourney every year, we aren't going to a bowl game every year, and we aren't going to be at the top of the MAC in sports every year. Now, I desperately want all of those things. I just see a different way in getting there.

Consider the following...since 1990 the MAC members have had the following men's basketball coaches:

CMU-5
NIU-6
EMU-5
Toledo-5
Ball St-5
WMU-3
Akron-3
Kent St-7
Miami-3
BGSU-3
Buffalo-1 (was previously a D III hoops team until they joined the MAC)
Ohio-3

Take a look at that info and tell me what model fits the best? Hire and fire...or make the right hire and ride it out?

What kind of environment do we want to portray? One that is stable? Or one that is volatile?

(02-23-2012 11:50 AM)JBStemp5 Wrote:  You know, I hate this "we are a small d-1 program, we are only a mid-major, we can afford to be average" bullcrap. Tell me, am I right or am I wrong, but if I recall, Gonzaga and Butler are classified as mid-majors. Now, we think of them more of which as a powerhouse program. So this whole thing that we are just a small program is just nonsense. There is always room to improve. Butler and Gonzaga were once in our position, now look at them.

I am not trying to make it seem like I am calling for Hawks head. I must admit, we are a better program under him, we usually win 20 or so games every season, we always come out with the MAC West. But the MAC West title does not mean anything anymore, especially when you are competing against EMU for it.

I fully anticipate a nice attack on this one..

I totally understand that when a person looks at Gonzaga, Butler, George Mason, VCU, etc...it is easy to come to the conclusion that WMU should be able to duplicate their success. After all, our enrollment and tradition over the last century dwarfs those schools.

However, we fail to remember that in the late 90's, our conference decided to pump our money into our football programs. It was deemed the most likely of the major sports to get us on tv and make us $$$. Our basketball programs have subsequently floundered on a national level because of this decision. It's really really tough to be relevant in basketball when the budget is a fraction of other teams in the Missouri Valley, Gonzaga, Butler, etc... Recruits see this disparity and they gravitate towards the $$$$. It stinks for us.

Also keep in mind that Kent's number is deceiving because their head coaches get hired away, but they promote assistants, so the turnover is high but the system doesn't change much.