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The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
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Ole Blue Offline
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Post: #101
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
(02-07-2012 03:19 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 09:13 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 09:05 AM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 08:54 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-06-2012 06:42 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Your comment does not answer what I said. You simply tried to flip the situation around. Explain yourself.

Explain yourself...? No. Ask nicely.04-cheers

Sorry for getting so worked up, but it's an issue that hits close to home. Please explain yourself. I'm sick and tired of people answering what I say like you did. Nothing against you personally.

Fair enough. As I've said on this board many times I don't really care if homosexuals want to "marry". I just don't want to call it marriage. Marriage is a religious union between a man and a woman. If they want to brand it as a "Civil Union" then that's fine with me. Also, it irks me when people scream that all they want are the same rights as everyone else. We all know its not about rights, its about benefits. That being said I'm also not opposed to Civil Unions being granted the same tax status and health benefits and everything else that "Married" couples get. My problem is when they want to redefine marriage and aren't honest with what they really want. Benefits. And according to Federal Law sexual orientation is already a protected class. So that eliminates the "Rights" argument.

Exactly what US Federal Laws list sexual orientation as a protected class?

Good question. I'd like to know all of the protections.
02-07-2012 05:13 PM
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I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou Offline
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Post: #102
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
(02-07-2012 05:13 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 03:19 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 09:13 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 09:05 AM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 08:54 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Explain yourself...? No. Ask nicely.04-cheers

Sorry for getting so worked up, but it's an issue that hits close to home. Please explain yourself. I'm sick and tired of people answering what I say like you did. Nothing against you personally.

Fair enough. As I've said on this board many times I don't really care if homosexuals want to "marry". I just don't want to call it marriage. Marriage is a religious union between a man and a woman. If they want to brand it as a "Civil Union" then that's fine with me. Also, it irks me when people scream that all they want are the same rights as everyone else. We all know its not about rights, its about benefits. That being said I'm also not opposed to Civil Unions being granted the same tax status and health benefits and everything else that "Married" couples get. My problem is when they want to redefine marriage and aren't honest with what they really want. Benefits. And according to Federal Law sexual orientation is already a protected class. So that eliminates the "Rights" argument.

Exactly what US Federal Laws list sexual orientation as a protected class?

Good question. I'd like to know all of the protections.

I stand corrected. I was thinking of the Fair Housing protections. I do think some states have an EEO clause that protects gays, but I'm not sure.
02-07-2012 05:23 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #103
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
(02-07-2012 05:23 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 05:13 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 03:19 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 09:13 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 09:05 AM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  Sorry for getting so worked up, but it's an issue that hits close to home. Please explain yourself. I'm sick and tired of people answering what I say like you did. Nothing against you personally.

Fair enough. As I've said on this board many times I don't really care if homosexuals want to "marry". I just don't want to call it marriage. Marriage is a religious union between a man and a woman. If they want to brand it as a "Civil Union" then that's fine with me. Also, it irks me when people scream that all they want are the same rights as everyone else. We all know its not about rights, its about benefits. That being said I'm also not opposed to Civil Unions being granted the same tax status and health benefits and everything else that "Married" couples get. My problem is when they want to redefine marriage and aren't honest with what they really want. Benefits. And according to Federal Law sexual orientation is already a protected class. So that eliminates the "Rights" argument.

Exactly what US Federal Laws list sexual orientation as a protected class?

Good question. I'd like to know all of the protections.

I stand corrected. I was thinking of the Fair Housing protections. I do think some states have an EEO clause that protects gays, but I'm not sure.

Not even federal fair housing laws protect gays. Yes some states and localities do have nondiscrimination laws in housing and employment due to sexual orientation.
02-07-2012 06:24 PM
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I'mMoreAwesomeThanYou Offline
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Post: #104
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
(02-07-2012 06:24 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 05:23 PM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 05:13 PM)mtsufan561 Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 03:19 PM)dcCid Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 09:13 AM)ImMoreAwesomeThanYou Wrote:  Fair enough. As I've said on this board many times I don't really care if homosexuals want to "marry". I just don't want to call it marriage. Marriage is a religious union between a man and a woman. If they want to brand it as a "Civil Union" then that's fine with me. Also, it irks me when people scream that all they want are the same rights as everyone else. We all know its not about rights, its about benefits. That being said I'm also not opposed to Civil Unions being granted the same tax status and health benefits and everything else that "Married" couples get. My problem is when they want to redefine marriage and aren't honest with what they really want. Benefits. And according to Federal Law sexual orientation is already a protected class. So that eliminates the "Rights" argument.

Exactly what US Federal Laws list sexual orientation as a protected class?

Good question. I'd like to know all of the protections.

I stand corrected. I was thinking of the Fair Housing protections. I do think some states have an EEO clause that protects gays, but I'm not sure.

Not even federal fair housing laws protect gays. Yes some states and localities do have nondiscrimination laws in housing and employment due to sexual orientation.

NC does. I live in NC.
02-07-2012 06:33 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #105
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
(02-06-2012 09:33 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(02-06-2012 07:27 PM)dcCid Wrote:  I agree with you in concept on a potential solution. Having some sort of national programs to provide health care will also take a large expense away from businesses that many foreign companies do not have to incur.

You point out one big problem with Obamacare. Because it retains the tie of health insurance to employment, even funding care for non-insured at least in part with employer penalties, it does harm the competitiveness of US companies. A European approach, where the heavy lifting in the tax system is done by a consumption tax, would help competitiveness. And it'd be pretty much a push for US consumers, since the consumption tax would replace currently embedded taxes that would be removed from the price of goods and services by competition.

But if you generally agree, why the attempts to deflect repeated below?

Quote:The McMansions are not being built by health and human service employees. They are being built by DOD contractors, retired military (with generous pensions and socialized taxpayer funded Tricare medical coverage), lobbyist, and ex politicians.

Like hell they aren't. Granted, there are plenty being built by the groups you mention, particularly on the Virginia (Pentagon) side. But I'm well aware of more than a few built by social welfare bureaucrats. To be fair I'm also aware that a lot of the HHS/HUD/DOEd types prefer the equally pricey restorations in places like Georgetown, but my point is about where the money is going, and that hardly changes that. Don't deflect.

Quote:If this is only an issue for aferican american women in detroit, then it should be addressed as a Michigan issue, no need to revamp the entire program for a local issue.

You know as well as I do that the problem is not localized in Detroit, and I was merely using an illustrative example. Don't deflect.

Still waiting for Max to respond.

Obama care was at least a step. I do not understand why over time all polices can’t be on an exchange of some sort. Business can subsidize if they want. If someone qualifies for Medicaid/Medicare then maybe the government just picks up some of, or the entire premium. At this point though the country is not able to have a healthy debate. But yes, I believe that everyone is entitled to medical care.

On the other 2 I knew what you were saying, but I was being a jerk. When a couple of examples are extrapolated to apply to the whole system or group of people, it actually deflects from the debate.
02-07-2012 06:38 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #106
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
DcCid

Rather than debate whether or not everyone is entitled to healthcare, because the isn't really the debate... I'd like for you to tell me how we are going to pay for it.

Clearly Medicaid/medicare isn't enough... And we somehow have to add something like 40mm people, many of whom are amount our least healthy... I suspect we're talking about a 20-40% increase in costs.

What are you going to cut to get there? Whom are you going to tax, and how much to get there

It's really not as tough and confusing as politicians want us to believe. I mean, if we could get within spitting distance on paper, I suspect the details could get worked out...

Help me get there


As to Obamacare being a step... When you're on an economic balance beam, you can't afford a step in the wrong direction
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 07:07 PM by Hambone10.)
02-07-2012 07:05 PM
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RaiderATO Offline
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Post: #107
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
(02-07-2012 06:38 PM)dcCid Wrote:  I believe that everyone is entitled to medical care.

Based upon....
02-07-2012 07:12 PM
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Jugnaut Offline
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Post: #108
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
There can never be equality of outcome because people are naturally different. Some will succeed and others will fail. You'd have to totally destroy equality of opportunity to try to create equality of outcome. The former is preferable to the later.
02-07-2012 07:19 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #109
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
I don't believe that medical care is a right. To me rights are things that you can exercise without harming your neighbor. My right to extend my fist stops where your nose begins, to repeat and oft-quoted line. So, with each right comes a responsibility to exercise it in a manner that does not interfere with the life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of others. You can't do that with health care.

If I have a "right" to health care, then that obligates someone else to provide it. If that person is not compensated for having to provide it, then that person is harmed. If he/she is compensated, then someone has to pay for it. And if the person paying for it is not me, then that person is harmed.

What I do believe is that there is a neighborhood effect around basic health care. I can send my kid to school with all his/her shots, but if none of the other kids have theirs, and they're all sick all the time, and my kid is exposed to it, then my kid will most likely suffer from it at some point.

So I think there is a strong argument for universal basic health care. That's what the French and German and Dutch and Swiss systems basically provide, each in its own (and very different from the others) way.

But we can't meet every person's every health care need. The cost would be prohibitive. That's why our system costs so much more than the others. We try to meet way more needs than most of the socialized systems can. And meeting every incremental need for the 80% of the population is way, way more expensive than providing basic care for the other 20%.

You can have good health care, or you can have universal care, or you can have cheap care. But you can't have all three, and it's quite the balancing act to provide even a reasonable shot at two of them. Obamacare is trying to be cheap and universal. That means it's going to be crap care. The economics just don't work to permit otherwise. CBO has even noted this in their reports that have been spun as saying that CBO provides an independent assessment that Obamacare will reduce the budget deficit.

So if you want good health care and you want it cheap, everyone can't have it. You must have a rationing mechanism. That can be price (and usually is in our system) or it can be bureaucratic fiat (as it is in most socialized systems). The French, Germans, Dutch, and Swiss essentially provide basic care to everyone (it's cheap, so you don't need to ration it). When you get to the more advanced (and expensive) stuff, it is in effect rationed by price. You can get the care in the "free" system, but it will take a while. Or you can pay more for better insurance, and go to the "pay" system and get it done now. In France, for example, 99+% of the people are covered on the "free" system (people migrating into the country are not covered for the first couple of months, but that's about it). But 90% also buy supplemental insurance so that they are covered if they need to go to the "pay" side. So their system comes in two parts. The "free" side provides universal and cheap health care, but with obvious limits on quality; the "pay" side provides quality and relatively cheaply compared to us, but it's not universal.

That kind of approach makes a lot more sense to me than Obamacare.
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 08:42 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
02-07-2012 08:37 PM
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UConn-SMU Offline
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Post: #110
RE: The main difference between liberals & conservatives.
If I have a "right" to healthcare at someone else's expense, do I have a "right" to a new Mercedes?

I don't remember healthcare being mentioned in the Bill of Rights.
02-07-2012 08:45 PM
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