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(02-05-2012 03:42 PM)blazr Wrote:  Who are you suggesting to have the "Plan B" and put it in motion? If UAB, then no way. Why? Because there was/is nothing wrong with "Plan A". It was not a flaw or failure in our plan/proposal that put "Plan A" on indefinite hold. Besides, "Plan B" either includes smaller components that build up to "Plan A" or it eliminates "Plan A" forever. No one actually in charge of our future will accept the latter, and the former would only make sense if we knew that it was the size of our proposal that got it shot down so tackling smaller pieces will be OK. That, unfortunately, is not the case.

As far as the city, their plans are only tangentially relevant to UAB because we have not - and probably will never - tied ourselves in with the city on any endeavor. The issue is that if you take the histories of the two entities as a whole, UAB is constantly leaning and pressing forward where Birmingham has forever had more than just a few millstones tied around its neck. There certainly has been increased "acknowledgement of the value of cooperation" (not really complete cooperation yet) of late, but the last thing UAB needs - especially in athletics - is to do something that would make Birmingham's problems become ours as well.

In the planning for the dome, the stance we took was that any project Birmingham wants to undertake will need revenue. In the case of that project the vast majority of revenue would be from conventions that we have to turn away now, but we know that the city is going to look to us as a major tenant for any football-suitable facility. We took their calls and told them what we needed to commit to them. I imagine we'd do so again in the future.

I'm not suggesting that UAB initiate this, it's clear that their hands are politically tied, & I have no problem whatsoever with "Plan A" as you called it. It's just that UAB, for that matter, Birmingham is besieged by evil, corrupt and incompetent people, that's what scares me, eluding to your statement about the people who are in charge of this city's future, it's starting to look to me like it's not the ones that many of us elected to certain positions in this area. I'm not saying we don't need allies, surely we do, but we need effective allies, not ones that just offer up lip service to make themselves look good and hope that people will remember their "stance" to vote for them when re-election time rolls around again. (Not)Trusting Birmingham politicians has always been a big issue to many of us that have lived here over the years, and for good reason, more times than not.

Birmingham's political future is to me, very frightening, the "old guard" has little or no pull whatsoever, and there's no "new guard" waiting in the wings like in other more progressive cities with the potential to assume the command and lead Birmingham in a different, more suitable direction.

The few "new faces" on the scene are singing the same old tunes, & it moves no one. And for now, our city's still a "wallflower", instead of being out on the dance floor enjoying itself, because the DJ (in this case, Team Grumbles") refuses to play our song.

(02-05-2012 05:12 PM)ATTALLABLAZE Wrote:  Reason I say that is whatever gets built will either be in conjunction therefore beside the BJCC or with UAB. Has nothing to do with the area all though it's perception is far worse than it's reality.

I hear ya, partner! I've had 3 incidents in that area & in the confines of Legion Field, one while trying to park my car before going in for a game, one while walking to my car after a game, and hitting the deck seeking cover from gunfire in the south end zone during a game.

I have a serious question that may or may not tick some folks off. The city could not justify building any sort of football stadium, could they? The dome was just that ******* Langford talking, I don't think that was ever going to be taken seriously. I just can't imagine the city justifying spending money on another stadium when they don't really have any use for it to begin with.(unless UAB decides to use it, and even then it would be a stretch)

I am in the minority here about the dome but if I had my way it would already be in operation and we would be hosting conventions and sporting events in it.

What sporting events? It's easy to say we are going to build this and do that with it, but what are you going to use it for? Arena league? UAB? Then what? I have no problem with Birmingham building one if it's useful for the city, but I just can't see how you'd justify it.

(02-06-2012 06:01 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  I have a serious question that may or may not tick some folks off. The city could not justify building any sort of football stadium, could they? The dome was just that ******* Langford talking, I don't think that was ever going to be taken seriously. I just can't imagine the city justifying spending money on another stadium when they don't really have any use for it to begin with.(unless UAB decides to use it, and even then it would be a stretch)

As I pointed out in post #13 on this thread, the "Dome" proposal predates Larry Langford as Mayor, or even County Commissioner, since it was part of the "MAPS" package in 1998. The whole package was voted down including the one cent sales tax that was intended to help pay for it. It was nicknamed the "Dome" by those who wanted to block it but was actually always a multi-purpose facility intended to expand the BJCC's capability to host the many larger national company conventions that passed on B'ham because of a lack of a suitable facility, hotel/motel accomodations and entertainment venues open to the public in the early AM hours (24/7 as they say now). It was never truly a "Dome" just for football as the opponents named it in derision.

The last two of these are in a smaller measure being addressed by the new hotel and the smaller "entertainment district" now being built near the BJCC. The last attempt at building a downtown entertainment venue was Morris Avenue which was hampered because area religious leaders were able to force it to shut down around midnight during the week, 2:00 am Sunday morning and close all day Sunday. You can still see some of what was built there today but only "The Peanut Depot" is left from that time. Some few B'ham leaders saw the future as it could be but most people in the area seemed to want only a bigger country town with rural values running it. UAB has had a part in convincing some to look more favorably on having a bigger city where more is possible. Unfortunately UAB is still dominated from Tuscaloosa where the real decisions about its future are being made even today.

A dome today is a bad idea. A dome back in the late 90s was a good one. Defeating MAPS was one of the worst things the residents of Jefferson County ever did. A Jeffco/Shelby County combined MAPS project that would bring transit and an improved downtown area would truly transform Birmingham. And I don't mean in the incremental ways the baseball stadium or the Westin will do. Birmingham would be a totally and completely different place had MAPS passed.

(02-06-2012 09:53 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  A dome today is a bad idea. A dome back in the late 90s was a good one. Defeating MAPS was one of the worst things the residents of Jefferson County ever did. A Jeffco/Shelby County combined MAPS project that would bring transit and an improved downtown area would truly transform Birmingham. And I don't mean in the incremental ways the baseball stadium or the Westin will do. Birmingham would be a totally and completely different place had MAPS passed.

+1

(02-06-2012 06:01 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  I have a serious question that may or may not tick some folks off. The city could not justify building any sort of football stadium, could they? The dome was just that ******* Langford talking, I don't think that was ever going to be taken seriously. I just can't imagine the city justifying spending money on another stadium when they don't really have any use for it to begin with.(unless UAB decides to use it, and even then it would be a stretch)

Birmingham turns away around 150 conventions every year because we don't have space. We are perfectly located for companies in the Southeast and very cheap to reach by all modes of travel. A typical convention takes a week of setup and a week of tear down. So right now any convention booked at the BJCC blocks out 2 weeks on the calendar. That's not to mention conventions we have turned away because the space we have is not large enough.

Birmingham needs the empty floor space of a dome. It would be booked solid from Day 1 for years...and that's directly from the mouths of people in the convention industry: from agents to "roadies" (setup/tear down professionals). If you're going to build that space in the middle of the Deep South, and keeping in mind that it has to be attractive as a convention center with all the amenities that go with that (so you can't just put up a metal building), why not put seats around the space and field turf on the floor?

(02-06-2012 11:40 PM)BTR Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 09:53 PM)mixduptransistor Wrote:  A dome today is a bad idea. A dome back in the late 90s was a good one. Defeating MAPS was one of the worst things the residents of Jefferson County ever did. A Jeffco/Shelby County combined MAPS project that would bring transit and an improved downtown area would truly transform Birmingham. And I don't mean in the incremental ways the baseball stadium or the Westin will do. Birmingham would be a totally and completely different place had MAPS passed.

+1

+1

What blazr said.

(02-06-2012 06:24 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  What sporting events? It's easy to say we are going to build this and do that with it, but what are you going to use it for? Arena league? UAB? Then what? I have no problem with Birmingham building one if it's useful for the city, but I just can't see how you'd justify it.

If you are referring to the Multi-Purpose Facility, that was its' intended primary purpose, not just for sports, but for various events, conventions, concerts, etc., & people entrusted to this project kept emphasizing that to the public over and over and over again till they were blue in the face (I still have a copy of the public meeting at Boutwell on this on video)but the local media kept using the term "dome stadium" and people around here for the most part, drank the kool-aid, brainwashed by the media perception that it was just for football only, they simply didn't get it or didn't want to get it.

I can't remember all the times I talked to someone around here about that, and the nonsense that came from their mouths subsequently, they were so stuck on football only, the ones that I heard the most that really was making me ..."They don't have a pro team to put in it.", "alabama or Auburn's/The sec's not going to play in it." "It's too good for sorry-***ed UAB" "We don't need no dome, we already got Legion Field.", that was the one of them all...This town can kiss all that $$$$ in potential earnings from conventions, sporting/sports entertainment events, concerts, etc. , that they're competing for with other cities that more state of the art, modernized facilities to showcase them in goodbye, the Civic Center's almost in the same boat as Legion Field, outdated, obsolete, and primitive in comparison to venues in other cities.

(02-06-2012 06:12 PM)ATTALLABLAZE Wrote:  I am in the minority here about the dome but if I had my way it would already be in operation and we would be hosting conventions and sporting events in it.

It's not that I'm against the dome, I want it here very badly. I'm just tired of these city officials not finishing something they start, promising and never delivering on that promise, such as on this project. I just got so discouraged every time one of them brings it up like it's a done deal, only to get shot down again and again, I have zero confidence in these people when it comes to this undertaking. They simply don't have what it takes to get this kind of thing up and running. All talk and no action, and this only further fortifies the level of apathy and discontent in and with this city. Attitude, more times than not, is truly a reflection of leadership.

(02-06-2012 06:01 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  I have a serious question that may or may not tick some folks off. The city could not justify building any sort of football stadium, could they? The dome was just that ******* Langford talking, I don't think that was ever going to be taken seriously. I just can't imagine the city justifying spending money on another stadium when they don't really have any use for it to begin with.(unless UAB decides to use it, and even then it would be a stretch)

Just my observation, but I honestly feel that if Langford hadn't gotten himself caught up in that jackpot that landed him in prison, he'd have found a way to get that MPF/Dome built in a reasonable amount of time, and we'd be enjoying streetcars & an improved overall transit system in our city as well.

That proposed facility wasn't just for football. But too many locals fell for the media okey-doke, & believed this to be true. Be on the lookout for another "Why Can't Birmingham Progress/Prosper" story from them in the near future, especially since we're catching so much **** for trying to get a 30,000 seat football stadium on UAB's campus. They know there are plenty of suckers out there that hang on their every word.

(02-07-2012 04:29 PM)Matrix Wrote:  

(02-06-2012 06:01 PM)blazers9911 Wrote:  I have a serious question that may or may not tick some folks off. The city could not justify building any sort of football stadium, could they? The dome was just that ******* Langford talking, I don't think that was ever going to be taken seriously. I just can't imagine the city justifying spending money on another stadium when they don't really have any use for it to begin with.(unless UAB decides to use it, and even then it would be a stretch)

Just my observation, but I honestly feel that if Langford hadn't gotten himself caught up in that jackpot that landed him in prison, he'd have found a way to get that MPF/Dome built in a reasonable amount of time, and we'd be enjoying streetcars & an improved overall transit system in our city as well.

That proposed facility wasn't just for football. But too many locals fell for the media okey-doke, & believed this to be true. Be on the lookout for another "Why Can't Birmingham Progress/Prosper" story from them in the near future, especially since we're catching so much **** for trying to get a 30,000 seat football stadium on UAB's campus. They know there are plenty of suckers out there that hang on their every word.

I remember an interview with an Atlanta "GA DOME" official after the storm tore some of the building away. He told the interviewer that "We have over 200 events scheduled for this building so we have got to get it fixed up in a hurry before those people make other arrangements elsewhere". Had the voters of Jeffco had the vision to build the MPF in 1998, we could have been on the list of "elsewheres" the official was referring to in his statement.

People in our area seem to want everything they see in other cities, but seem to want someone else to pay the bills for it to happen. That is why "RAPS" was so successful in their attack in 1998. Alabamians are in 2012 still being told by state political leaders that they can "have it all" without having to pay anything in taxes to have it. Gov Bentley for instance tells the public he wants to sell bonds for hundreds of millions to build things the state needs. He doesn't mention that in order to get the best interest rates for those bonds, a tax must be enacted specifically to pay for it. If the bonds are not backed by such a tax, they will not get the best rates he assures the public they will get. While his party's national leaders are attacking Washington, DC for increased debt, he is proposing to do exactly that same kind of debt increase in Alabama.

(02-06-2012 03:47 PM)Matrix Wrote:  I'm not suggesting that UAB initiate this, it's clear that their hands are politically tied, & I have no problem whatsoever with "Plan A" as you called it. It's just that UAB, for that matter, Birmingham is besieged by evil, corrupt and incompetent people, that's what scares me, eluding to your statement about the people who are in charge of this city's future, it's starting to look to me like it's not the ones that many of us elected to certain positions in this area.

Well, let's be clear about one thing: in America at least, politicians are never the ones who make things happen. They have three critical tasks when it comes to sizable/significant changes: they start the ball rolling by getting the right people together and on the same page, they get themselves - and any other government meddlers - the hell out of the way, and they keep the public's focus on themselves while the projects/changes are completed. Birmingham doesn't need more charismatic or powerful politicians (although less bumbling and corrupt wouldn't hurt)...Birmingham needs business, community, and big money people who are invested enough in Birmingham's success/future that the momentum for projects like the MPF is already there. Right now, because of Bham's unique history, the most powerful people either don't live anywhere near this area or they are more dedicated to helping Hueytown/Hoover/Leeds/Chelsea/et. al. thrive than the city that is the heart of the area.

When Jacksonville, Charlotte, Louisville, Nashville, etc. created coalition governments of their metro areas that removed red tape and obstacles that would have held back or slowed large projects they were able to do so only because the people with actual power finally realized what needed to happen and they gave the green lights to the pols.

Not only do we not have enough power players truly invested in Bham, the ones who are find active opposition. Right now, and this is not just speculation, anyone who could ram through a project like the OCS is being reminded that they may have to do business with Bryant Bank for some future project, or need some wheels greased around Bham (McMahon), or there could be some litigation in Montgomery that needs to be smoothed out (Espy). How do you root out that kind of opposition?