MAC Championships
Central Michigan (3 titles)
Toledo (2 titles)
Miami (2 titles)
N.Illinois (1 title)
Buffalo (1 title)
Akron (1 title)

MAC Division Titles
Toledo (5 titles)
Miami (4 titles)
N.Illinois (3 titles)
C.Michigan (3 titles)
Ohio (3 titles)
W.Michigan (2 titles)
Buffalo (1 title)
Akron (1 title)
Ball State (1 title)
Bowling Green (1 title)

Seasons with .500 or better records
Toledo (11 seasons)
Miami (10 seasons)
N. Illinois (10 seasons)
W. Michigan (9 seasons)
Bowling Green (8 seasons)
Ohio (7 seasons)
C.Michigan (6 seasons)
Akron (5 seasons)
Ball State (4 seasons)
Temple (3 seasons)
Kent State (2 seasons)
Buffalo (1 season)
E. Michigan (1 season)

A few observations:

-Toledo with 5 divisional titles and 11 winning seasons along with ranking annually #1 MAC attendance is the overall top MAC program.

-Miami with 2 MACC, 4 divisional titles, 10 winning seasons is the best program in the MAC East as that is best among the East programs in all 3 categories.

-NIU is tied for #2 in winning seasons, #3 in division titles, #4 in MAC Championships all accomplished by multiple coaches. Throwing attendance in there NIU is the #2 overall program behind Toledo.

-Ohio, Bowling Green, W.Michigan, C.Michigan are all sitting in the middle tier. C.Michigan is #1 in MACCs but only #7 in overall winning seasons. Those CMU MACCs were all the result of 1 great QB.

-Temple for as much hype as what the program has earned has done nothing more in the conference thus far really than Kent State. I realize that Temple has only played in the MAC since 2007 but going back before that time they did have a scheduling agreement for a couple of seasons. Temple will need another 3-5 years of good football, along with a couple of division titles to even be considered mid tier.

-E.Michigan is dead last in everything MAC football. Last in success and last in attendance. I hate to say it but the conference would be better off giving EMU the boot and adding another FB only in the East like James Madison. Eleven teams, 20 game schedule would be better for MAC basketball as well.

Great Stats on UT! I love it.

(01-21-2012 01:21 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  A few observations:

-Toledo with 5 divisional titles and 11 winning seasons along with ranking annually #1 MAC attendance is the overall top MAC program.

-Miami with 2 MACC, 4 divisional titles, 10 winning seasons is the best program in the MAC East as that is best among the East programs in all 3 categories.

-NIU is tied for #2 in winning seasons, #3 in division titles, #4 in MAC Championships all accomplished by multiple coaches. Throwing attendance in there NIU is the #2 overall program behind Toledo.

-Ohio, Bowling Green, W.Michigan, C.Michigan are all sitting in the middle tier. C.Michigan is #1 in MACCs but only #7 in overall winning seasons. Those CMU MACCs were all the result of 1 great QB.

-Temple for as much hype as what the program has earned has done nothing more in the conference thus far really than Kent State. I realize that Temple has only played in the MAC since 2007 but going back before that time they did have a scheduling agreement for a couple of seasons. Temple will need another 3-5 years of good football, along with a couple of division titles to even be considered mid tier.

-E.Michigan is dead last in everything MAC football. Last in success and last in attendance. I hate to say it but the conference would be better off giving EMU the boot and adding another FB only in the East like James Madison. Eleven teams, 20 game schedule would be better for MAC basketball as well.

Don't you get tried of repeating the same song about EMU leaving the MAC? When are you going to stop beating this same topic? It's not going to happen.. Move on from it..

What about Basketball. Its not pretty for the Bobcats regular season numbers since 1997. Except for 2 tournament runs in 2006 and 2010 its been a mediocre run. Zero east titles Zero regular season titles. Even NIU won a division title.

(01-21-2012 04:23 PM)NUPudge Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 01:21 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -E.Michigan is dead last in everything MAC football. Last in success and last in attendance. I hate to say it but the conference would be better off giving EMU the boot and adding another FB only in the East like James Madison. Eleven teams, 20 game schedule would be better for MAC basketball as well.

Don't you get tried of repeating the same song about EMU leaving the MAC? When are you going to stop beating this same topic? It's not going to happen.. Move on from it..

Its not that I think EMU is headed for the door anytime soon but I wonder how much stronger this football conference could be with the Huron's at the FCS level.

In football the SEC, B1G, Big XII, PAC-12 are your real power conferences. The only reason the Big East and ACC have the computer ratings they have is because they rarely have any sub 100 rated teams.

The problem in the MAC is that you have too many schools in the same recruiting footprint making it difficult to keep everyone +100 in the computer ratings. There simply isn't enough talent in the Midwest/Mideast to keep everyone going strong.

EMU's regular sub 100 performances bring the statistics down for the conference. That is why I would prefer it if the league replaced a programs drawing 2,500 in football in the footprint, with a school drawing 25,000 in football adding a large state market to the MAC (James Madison).

In my personal opinion basketball would be stronger financially with 11 teams and help NIU/CMU/WMU/Toledo/Ball State in attendance to play the Ohio 4 corner schools twice every year. In some situations it goes both ways. It would help Bowling Green to have Toledo at home in basketball every year. It would help Miami to have Ball State at home every year.

The 14/11 hybrid allows Miami to move to the West in football, while giving the East a more regional feel with Buffalo, UMass, Temple, JMU all playing in the same conference. With the MAC having such a presence in the East its going to help recruiting for the East. Kids who were going to East Carolina would play for JMU because ESPN TV deal. Good defensive players from the VA-MD area going to Marshall could be going instead to Akron. Adding JMU would tilt recruiting in favor of the MAC over CUSA in the Mid Atlantic region.

The MAC then would show up more in the computer ratings and regularly have a couple of schools in the top 25 like the Big East or ACC. The football played in the MAC is largely as good as what is played in those two conferences but the MAC has a couple of anchors dragging it down.

(01-21-2012 10:36 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 04:23 PM)NUPudge Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 01:21 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -E.Michigan is dead last in everything MAC football. Last in success and last in attendance. I hate to say it but the conference would be better off giving EMU the boot and adding another FB only in the East like James Madison. Eleven teams, 20 game schedule would be better for MAC basketball as well.

Don't you get tried of repeating the same song about EMU leaving the MAC? When are you going to stop beating this same topic? It's not going to happen.. Move on from it..

Its not that I think EMU is headed for the door anytime soon but I wonder how much stronger this football conference could be with the Huron's at the FCS level.

In football the SEC, B1G, Big XII, PAC-12 are your real power conferences. The only reason the Big East and ACC have the computer ratings they have is because they rarely have any sub 100 rated teams.

The problem in the MAC is that you have too many schools in the same recruiting footprint making it difficult to keep everyone +100 in the computer ratings. There simply isn't enough talent in the Midwest/Mideast to keep everyone going strong.

EMU's regular sub 100 performances bring the statistics down for the conference. That is why I would prefer it if the league replaced a programs drawing 2,500 in football in the footprint, with a school drawing 25,000 in football adding a large state market to the MAC (James Madison).

In my personal opinion basketball would be stronger financially with 11 teams and help NIU/CMU/WMU/Toledo/Ball State in attendance to play the Ohio 4 corner schools twice every year. In some situations it goes both ways. It would help Bowling Green to have Toledo at home in basketball every year. It would help Miami to have Ball State at home every year.

The 14/11 hybrid allows Miami to move to the West in football, while giving the East a more regional feel with Buffalo, UMass, Temple, JMU all playing in the same conference. With the MAC having such a presence in the East its going to help recruiting for the East. Kids who were going to East Carolina would play for JMU because ESPN TV deal. Good defensive players from the VA-MD area going to Marshall could be going instead to Akron. Adding JMU would tilt recruiting in favor of the MAC over CUSA in the Mid Atlantic region.

The MAC then would show up more in the computer ratings and regularly have a couple of schools in the top 25 like the Big East or ACC. The football played in the MAC is largely as good as what is played in those two conferences but the MAC has a couple of anchors dragging it down.

You don't know that James Madison would be that good once they started playing I-A schools on a consistent basis. And if they didn't do well, attendance would suffer as well. They don't have any rivalries in the MAC either. New Hampshire thought they were good until Toledo hammered them.

(01-21-2012 11:57 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  You don't know that James Madison would be that good once they started playing I-A schools on a consistent basis. And if they didn't do well, attendance would suffer as well. They don't have any rivalries in the MAC either. New Hampshire thought they were good until Toledo hammered them.

JMU would have UMass as a rival from the CAA days and Temple would be expected to be a rival.

I think the point is more that Virginia is a net exporter of football talent and that roughly 80% of the JMU roster is made up from in-state players. All of the MAC East schools have multiple players from VA on their rosters.

Part of what has made East Carolina and Marshall so good is they can hit the Virginia region easily since their isn't an in-state non-AQ team. That would change if JMU moved to FBS. There is a dynamic to recruiting that has to be molded correctly if the MAC wants to improve.

Not agreeing or disagreeing but, if the MAC is going to kick current teams out and it uses (as you suggest that it should) redundancy in the footprint as criteria...6 Ohio schools.

How about one school per state?
Toledo, WMU, NIU, UB, Ball St., Temple, and UMass.

There you go. Have fun.

(01-22-2012 09:56 AM)axeme Wrote:  How about one school per state?
Toledo, WMU, NIU, UB, Ball St., Temple, and UMass.

There you go. Have fun.

How about, no more than two per state?

(01-22-2012 09:44 AM)Howl-n-Prowl Wrote:  Not agreeing or disagreeing but, if the MAC is going to kick current teams out and it uses (as you suggest that it should) redundancy in the footprint as criteria...6 Ohio schools.

The problem with trying to kick out the Ohio schools is every single one of them brings something in either football or basketball. Every Ohio school is above average in 1 of the 2 major sports.

Kent State (Basketball-Cleveland Market)
Akron (Basketball-Akron/Canton Market)
Toledo (Football-Toledo Market)
Bowling Green (Football-Toledo Market)
Miami (Football-Cincinnati/Dayton Market)
Ohio (Basketball-Columbus Market)

The alliance/merger has said that it plans to expand by 1 school in the East. Although Toledo is the MAC's best football program it might be in the best interest of the conference if they left for the alliance. We have Bowling Green already in NW Ohio market so from a TV deal perspective without Toledo the MAC wouldn't skip a beat.

The MAC losing 1 lower performing basketball school dropping back to 11 in hoops would be of more value to the core members than Temple even joining. One division for basketball wouldn't affect travel cost negatively because so many schools are located in the middle (Ball St, Miami, Bowling Green, Eastern Michigan). Going to 11 wouldn't help the MAC that much in strength or revenue but I think it would be a lot better for attendance.

(01-21-2012 01:21 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  A few observations:

-Toledo with 5 divisional titles and 11 winning seasons along with ranking annually #1 MAC attendance is the overall top MAC program.

-Miami with 2 MACC, 4 divisional titles, 10 winning seasons is the best program in the MAC East as that is best among the East programs in all 3 categories.

-NIU is tied for #2 in winning seasons, #3 in division titles, #4 in MAC Championships all accomplished by multiple coaches. Throwing attendance in there NIU is the #2 overall program behind Toledo.

-Ohio, Bowling Green, W.Michigan, C.Michigan are all sitting in the middle tier. C.Michigan is #1 in MACCs but only #7 in overall winning seasons. Those CMU MACCs were all the result of 1 great QB.

-Temple for as much hype as what the program has earned has done nothing more in the conference thus far really than Kent State. I realize that Temple has only played in the MAC since 2007 but going back before that time they did have a scheduling agreement for a couple of seasons. Temple will need another 3-5 years of good football, along with a couple of division titles to even be considered mid tier.

-E.Michigan is dead last in everything MAC football. Last in success and last in attendance. I hate to say it but the conference would be better off giving EMU the boot and adding another FB only in the East like James Madison. Eleven teams, 20 game schedule would be better for MAC basketball as well.

So if the stats don't support your point you just make them up? Toledo has not been #1 in attendance for I don't know how many years. They have been very good lately but just came out of a lean 4 year stretch, it's the nature of the MAC.

I think you are downplaying MAC championships (obviously sounds biased) and overvaluing winning records. What does 7-5 in the MAC get you in terms of national exposure and bowl games? Nothing. What would a graduate prefer to bring up after his FB career, the fact that his team had 4 winning seasons or a conference championship ring?

I even think you gave Ohio a raw deal, they have been the most consistent MAC team of late with their MAC East championships. And as much as I like to bash Temple, they have been MAC East co-champs. They just didn't make it to the championship game.

(01-22-2012 12:25 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  The problem with trying to kick out the Ohio schools is every single one of them brings something in either football or basketball.

Redundancy: (Cleveland DMA = Akron DMA per Nielsen)
Kent State (Basketball-Cleveland Market)
Akron (Basketball-Akron/Canton Cleveland Market)

Redundancy:
Toledo (Football-Toledo Market)
Bowling Green (Football-Toledo Market)

(01-22-2012 12:26 PM)CMUprof Wrote:  

(01-21-2012 01:21 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -Ohio, Bowling Green, W.Michigan, C.Michigan are all sitting in the middle tier. C.Michigan is #1 in MACCs but only #7 in overall winning seasons. Those CMU MACCs were all the result of 1 great QB.

-Temple for as much hype as what the program has earned has done nothing more in the conference thus far really than Kent State. I realize that Temple has only played in the MAC since 2007 but going back before that time they did have a scheduling agreement for a couple of seasons. Temple will need another 3-5 years of good football, along with a couple of division titles to even be considered mid tier.

So if the stats don't support your point you just make them up? Toledo has not been #1 in attendance for I don't know how many years. They have been very good lately but just came out of a lean 4 year stretch, it's the nature of the MAC.

I think you are downplaying MAC championships (obviously sounds biased) and overvaluing winning records. What does 7-5 in the MAC get you in terms of national exposure and bowl games? Nothing. What would a graduate prefer to bring up after his FB career, the fact that his team had 4 winning seasons or a conference championship ring?

I even think you gave Ohio a raw deal, they have been the most consistent MAC team of late with their MAC East championships. And as much as I like to bash Temple, they have been MAC East co-champs. They just didn't make it to the championship game.

Toledo is the only MAC school ever to average 30,000 for a season in the history of the conference (including Marshall).

If I had to rank the the top half of the MAC since 97' I would do so as follows:

1. Toledo
2. N. Illinois
3. Miami
4. C. Michigan
5. Ohio
6. W. Michigan
7. Bowling Green

-N. Illinois doesn't have as many MAC Championships or division titles as Miami (though almost had another MACC losing to Miami) but I'm giving them some credit here for playing in the stronger West division.

-Miami only has 2 MACC's to C.Michigan's 3 but with more overall winning seasons plus relevance during the entire time period and not just for a quick stretch with a QB is important.

-C. Michigan only has 6 winning seasons compared with Ohio's 7 but CMU has 3 MACC while Ohio has 3 MAC Titles so I think you would have to place the Ohio behind CMU until they won at least a couple of MAC titles.

-Ohio only has 7 winning seasons compared with WMU's 9 but Ohio has 3 division titles and one bowl win, one more in each category than WMU. Solich has a record of 50-40 over 7 seasons while Cubit is 47-39 so its a close comparison but I have to give the nod to the Cats here.

-W.Michigan has 9 winning seasons and 2 division titles compared with 1 division title and 8 winning seasons at Bowling Green. The schools are very close but I'll give the nod to WMU as a program because of its higher support levels.

-Bowling Green has easily accomplished more in football than any of the second tier schools since 1997 despite only 1 division title.

-Temple has a record of 1-4 against Ohio with the only victory being in OT in 2008. Temple would have to be behind Ohio at the very least which I have at #5. WMU has made 3 bowl games, Bowling Green has made 4 bowl games winning 2 of them. Temple has only gone to 2 bowl games.

That is why I say Temple hasn't really accomplished very much in the conference yet overall and it will be one of the reasons why they'll say no to the alliance and stay in the MAC for a while longer to build tradition.

(01-22-2012 12:35 PM)Howl-n-Prowl Wrote:  

(01-22-2012 12:25 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  The problem with trying to kick out the Ohio schools is every single one of them brings something in either football or basketball.

Redundancy: (Cleveland DMA = Akron DMA per Nielsen)
Kent State (Basketball-Cleveland Market)
Akron (Basketball-Akron/Canton Cleveland Market)

Redundancy:
Toledo (Football-Toledo Market)
Bowling Green (Football-Toledo Market)

Cleveland-Akron have traditionally been advertised as one market but that is like calling Dayton and Cincinnati one market. The answer is not really.

Kent State has campuses in Geauga and Ashtabula while its main campus is a draw for kids from the Cleveland suburbs. Kent State has the large Cleveland presence for the MAC.

http://www.kent.edu/Campuses/

Akron is oriented more toward points south like Wayne County where they have a campus and has a different mission than Kent State

http://wayne.uakron.edu/about/

There is plenty of population to support 2 MAC schools in Northeast Ohio and there is plenty of justification for it as the MAC office is in Cleveland and so is the conference basketball tourney.

The big redundancy for the MAC is where you have EMU/Toledo/BGSU all within 50 minutes of each other in SE Mich/NW Ohio. EMU doesn't really have the Detroit market locked down any better than CMU or WMU. Toledo and BGSU largely split the same market of 1 million people (though BG is more of a draw in the Cleveland suburbs).

Bowling Green isn't leaving the MAC where it has so much tradition. To solve the market issue either its going to be Toledo moving up to a larger conference, or EMU crying uncle and moving down as the support levels there say Summit Conference.

While Toledo has more support than Bowling Green, Bowling Green has more strategic value as they cover Northern Ohio more broadly and send better crowds to the MAC basketball tourney. They can also travel nice to Detroit for championship games and bowls, maybe not as well as Toledo but still pretty good.

(01-22-2012 12:56 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  -Ohio only has 7 winning seasons compared with WMU's 9 but Ohio has 3 division titles and one bowl win, one more in each category than WMU. Solich has a record of 50-40 over 7 seasons while Cubit is 47-39 so its a close comparison but I have to give the nod to the Cats here.

Not to state the obvious but how many division titles would Ohio have if we were in the West?

Hahaha. OK.

EMU is doing a lot of good recruiting right now. We will probably have our best class ever. Things are changing in Ypsilanti......why can't people come to terms with that?

I'm sick of the same old same old. Let it go. EMU isn't going anywhere.

(01-22-2012 09:56 AM)axeme Wrote:  How about one school per state?
Toledo, WMU, NIU, UB, Ball St., Temple, and UMass.

There you go. Have fun.

Great idea. Any ideas re: the other 43? I'm looking forward to the Hawaii road trip.

(01-21-2012 01:21 PM)Louis Kitton Wrote:  A few observations:

-Toledo with 5 divisional titles and 11 winning seasons along with ranking annually #1 MAC attendance is the overall top MAC program.

-Miami with 2 MACC, 4 divisional titles, 10 winning seasons is the best program in the MAC East as that is best among the East programs in all 3 categories.

-NIU is tied for #2 in winning seasons, #3 in division titles, #4 in MAC Championships all accomplished by multiple coaches. Throwing attendance in there NIU is the #2 overall program behind Toledo.

-Ohio, Bowling Green, W.Michigan, C.Michigan are all sitting in the middle tier. C.Michigan is #1 in MACCs but only #7 in overall winning seasons. Those CMU MACCs were all the result of 1 great QB.

-Temple for as much hype as what the program has earned has done nothing more in the conference thus far really than Kent State. I realize that Temple has only played in the MAC since 2007 but going back before that time they did have a scheduling agreement for a couple of seasons. Temple will need another 3-5 years of good football, along with a couple of division titles to even be considered mid tier.

-E.Michigan is dead last in everything MAC football. Last in success and last in attendance. I hate to say it but the conference would be better off giving EMU the boot and adding another FB only in the East like James Madison. Eleven teams, 20 game schedule would be better for MAC basketball as well.

1. New indoor practice facility and improved stadium.
2. Average MAC class last year; much better this year.
3. six wins (four in conference) last year with 3 close losses
4. Coach of the year
5. President supports football
6. Renaissance at university last 3 years (endowment up $18 million, $190 million in construction on campus; crime down 85%; graduation rate up 7%; retention up 7%; enrollment up 6%; all-time best academic performance by football team)

The beauty of the MAC is that anyone can rise up. All it takes is administration support and a good coach. Keep your eyes open. Here comes Eastern.