I'm not trying to get into a debate about the existence of god(s) or anything else. But I have a question for those that know christian theology. This popped into my head on the subway this morning after walking by a street preacher that was yelling at people about hell:

If God knows all and can do all, why the fall of man? If he knew his creation was going to fall, and that displeases him, why not fix the problem? Why punish the creation for his design flaw?

Or another way to think about it...
If his design was perfect, and he knew what was going to happen, then man was designed to fall. Again, why punish the creation for going along with his plan?

Or while he was at it, why not just skip the creation of the humans that he knew were going to fall in the first place and not have to punish anyone?

I just want honest, well thought-out responses since this seems like a catch-22 in christian theology. I will not debate your responses unless you request a clarification or more information from me.

To answer this, I have to add the requirement that at some point in time, everybody had/has the free will and opportunity to accept God's saving grace. While there is a traditional name for this, I don't know it. It does differ significantly from traditional 5-point Calvinism, yet it compromises Calvinism w/ Arminianism by establishing that this free will (wh/ may or may not be perpetual), is itself part of God's grace. Thus it is true that by grace Christians are saved from the punishment of their sins.

That being said, why did God bother? I believe it is b/c He enjoys demonstrating His goodness, His greatness and His love. His characteristics are so superlative that they dwarf and even baffle his creation, even when they have some semblance of those qualities.

He allowed humans to choose their own way, despite knowing the consequences. Thus we bear responsibility. A design flaw? Maybe, I can see your point, if the consequences were fully irrevocable...BUT THEN, He provided a way AND the opportunity for each person to avoid those terrible consequences, not by eliminating them, but by enduring them Himself.

That is love. That is greatness. All connected to His goodness.

I don't believe He likes seeing those humans who receive the punishment. However, like a parent who sacrifices to take care of their children, you expect respect and obedience from them. If they reject your rules and insist on playing in the street, you know that they will suffer the natural consequences. You don't like it, but neither are you responsible for it.

There may be further reasons, that He's preparing us for greater responsibilities and roles in our future, but that's speculation on my part. There are some references that support that belief, but nothing concrete enough to establish them as dogma.

Oh Hell...Here we go again. Popcorn at the ready.

(01-10-2012 04:16 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  If God knows all and can do all, why the fall of man? If he knew his creation was going to fall, and that displeases him, why not fix the problem?

Because God has chosen to let people -- in this life -- choose God or reject God. "Free Will", if you will.

Quote:Why punish the creation for his design flaw?
If his design was perfect, and he knew what was going to happen, then man was designed to fall.

"The creation" (mankind) was designed to glorify God, and to seek fellowship with Him. Sadly, many people reject God's design for their life, and spend their days trying to avoid God, and denying His authority in their life.

Quote:Again, why punish the creation for going along with his plan?

The Bible says we cannot fathom God's thoughts, but my suspicion is that people have NOT "gone along with his plan", but rather have defied it and rejected it. My further suspicion is that God's dominion is so pervasive and all-encompassing that His will/intent/plan/desire will prevail in spite of human scorn.

Quote:Or while he was at it, why not just skip the creation of the humans that he knew were going to fall in the first place and not have to punish anyone?

I think God wanted to allow all people to know life, and to have the possibility of choosing to be with Him. But again, we cannot know God's thoughts, and not everything is going to be revealed to us in this lifetime. The Bible says that we can only know Him through faith.

The biggest thing I always wrestle with are items like Dinosaurs and indigenous people of North America

(01-10-2012 06:39 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The biggest thing I always wrestle with are items like Dinosaurs and indigenous people of North America

The "days" of creation are metaphorical, IMO. God told Man how it occurred in a manner we would understand. God exists outside of time.

I'm not sure what baffles you about the Native Americans.

(01-10-2012 06:39 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The biggest thing I always wrestle with are items like Dinosaurs and indigenous people of North America

The "biggest" (most audacious) claim in the Bible is contained within Genesis 1:1. If you honestly believe what that verse says, there is no logical reason to doubt any of the verses that come after it.

(01-10-2012 04:16 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  I'm not trying to get into a debate about the existence of god(s) or anything else. But I have a question for those that know christian theology. This popped into my head on the subway this morning after walking by a street preacher that was yelling at people about hell:

If God knows all and can do all, why the fall of man?

Your Question assumes Man is at the center of things... It would be like one tomato plant asking another. If that gardener can do so much why did he rip that other tomato plant out of the soil.

Quote:

Quote:Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Quote:If he knew his creation was going to fall, and that displeases him, why not fix the problem? Why punish the creation for his design flaw?

Again you are assuming that, apart from God, creation itself has any value. The whole premise of your question is flawed.

While I probably disagree with some folks on this board over the issue of election and predestination I do not believe those are points of heresy (one way or the other). So long as we realize the purpose of creation, sin, and the fall is to glorify God not to make things cushy easy for us.

Paul was stoned, beaten, arrested, and chased out of cities. Anyone who reads the bible and thinks this life is about our good or the next about our Glory?

(01-10-2012 05:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  "The creation" (mankind) was designed to glorify God,

Why would the most powerful, all knowing, creator of all things need his ego stroked?

(01-10-2012 08:57 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 05:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  "The creation" (mankind) was designed to glorify God,

Why would the most powerful, all knowing, creator of all things need his ego stroked?

I think glorifying God is for mankind's benefit instead of God's.

(01-10-2012 09:04 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 08:57 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 05:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  "The creation" (mankind) was designed to glorify God,

Why would the most powerful, all knowing, creator of all things need his ego stroked?

I think glorifying God is for mankind's benefit instead of God's.

(01-10-2012 08:57 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 05:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  "The creation" (mankind) was designed to glorify God,

Why would the most powerful, all knowing, creator of all things need his ego stroked?

C.S. Lewis has a nice essay on that

(01-10-2012 09:04 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 08:57 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 05:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  "The creation" (mankind) was designed to glorify God,

Why would the most powerful, all knowing, creator of all things need his ego stroked?

I think glorifying God is for mankind's benefit instead of God's.

In a round about, not meant to be sarcastic way, that was what I was alluding to. It makes us feel better so it must be good. More power to those who have the faith. I tried, but.....

(01-10-2012 04:16 PM)AtlanticLeague Wrote:  I'm not trying to get into a debate about the existence of god(s) or anything else. But I have a question for those that know christian theology. This popped into my head on the subway this morning after walking by a street preacher that was yelling at people about hell:

If God knows all and can do all, why the fall of man? If he knew his creation was going to fall, and that displeases him, why not fix the problem? Why punish the creation for his design flaw?

Or another way to think about it...
If his design was perfect, and he knew what was going to happen, then man was designed to fall. Again, why punish the creation for going along with his plan?

Or while he was at it, why not just skip the creation of the humans that he knew were going to fall in the first place and not have to punish anyone?

I just want honest, well thought-out responses since this seems like a catch-22 in christian theology. I will not debate your responses unless you request a clarification or more information from me.

That's a well reasoned question. Another one I always have is why would god desire to create at all? To have desire implies that one is lacking something and wants it. So if god is lacking something he would be imperfect. There would be no reason for god to create if he was perfect.

(01-10-2012 09:29 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 08:57 PM)smn1256 Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 05:43 PM)Native Georgian Wrote:  "The creation" (mankind) was designed to glorify God,

Why would the most powerful, all knowing, creator of all things need his ego stroked?

C.S. Lewis has a nice essay on that

Lewis seems to be more read than the Bible today among those of faith. Maybe he is just easier to translate.

(01-11-2012 01:24 AM)Fo Shizzle Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 09:29 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  C.S. Lewis has a nice essay on that

Lewis seems to be more read than the Bible today among those of faith. Maybe he is just easier to translate.

The Christians I know read the Bible far more frequently than C.S. Lewis.

But Lewis did have a knack for cutting through the abstractions (of many Christians and non-Christians alike) and expressing "difficult" concepts in clear, down-to-earth (or at least, as close-to-earth as possible) terms. That ability will probably keep him on many Christians' reading lists for a long, long time.

******

On a trivial note, the Christian C.S. Lewis, the atheist Aldous Huxley, and the vaguely secular John F. Kennedy all died on the same day (Nov. 22, 1963). There is a short, clever little novel/stage play centered around the theme that all 3 men discussed their beliefs amongst one another, while awaiting their afterlife fates to be revealed.

(01-10-2012 07:23 PM)Raider_ATO Wrote:  

(01-10-2012 06:39 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  The biggest thing I always wrestle with are items like Dinosaurs and indigenous people of North America

The "days" of creation are metaphorical, IMO. God told Man how it occurred in a manner we would understand. God exists outside of time.

I'm not sure what baffles you about the Native Americans.

I'm not talking about the Indians. I'm talking about the Clovis and Folsom people. They lived in North America at least 13,000 and 10,000 years ago or more respectively.

Atlantic, What are you afraid of?

(01-11-2012 12:32 PM)SumOfAllFears Wrote:  Atlantic, What are you afraid of?

Probably that he might be wrong...even when you look at the evidence and ignore the philosophical debate its pretty clear there was a creator.

See signature...even if you don't believe in Jesus. The science supports a creator.

Man cannot understand, and Science cannot explain, how the universe began.