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Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
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LaRue777 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
Pitt and Cuse have had more recent success in basketball so moving to the ACC doesn't look like a tough decision in that regard. Without a doubt both the ACC and Big East are tough basketball conferences so this is a toss up. If the ACC is a BIT weaker in basketball they will succeed.

Their football teams will have time to develop and potentially be in a situation where they have a chance to be at the top of a stable (but weak when compared to the other?) conferences.

Once these schools made their decision every other school in the BE football conference has been put in a situation to scramble.
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2011 04:33 PM by LaRue777.)
11-22-2011 04:04 PM
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LaRue777 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
(11-21-2011 04:58 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Sure do.

Pitt has always fancied itself to be a pseudo-B1G school if not a B1G athletic department. However that could have been accomplished with the benefit of so much more B1G money.

Also, Pitt is not a land grant university like so many B1G schools and that too hurt it. However, like many B1G schools, Pitt IS a research GIANT with most of that money coming in medicine and science. It is a very good school and a very difficult school to get into. Having been to most B1G campuses, I would say that Pitt's is most similar to Michigan's or Minnesota's but smaller. Urban but not Temple urban.

Several times over the years Pitt applied to and was denied admission into the B1G. Most famously was the time in the 40s when the school applied, was reportedly accepted, and announced to the world that it was B1G bound only to learn a few days later that they had been misinformed and that Michigan State was chosen in their place. That caused hard feelings for many years.

Then, during last year's B1G expansion process, as things were playing out it became clear that Pitt was not going to get a fair shake no matter what. According to the media consultants, of the available candidates, only Notre Dame's and Nebraska's television numbers were better than Pitt's and Pitt's research numbers - which the B1G said would be important when the process began - were significantly higher than both NU's and ND's. However what it all came down to was the BTN was already on in PA and Pitt wouldn't drive those subscriptions any further. Also, we were told, Penn State was leading the charge against Pitt and were instead championing Rutgers' cause.

That was neither surprising nor unexpected. It is not that dissimilar to what USF has been doing to UCF, vis-a-vie the Big East.

However during that period the Pitt fans and admin began having something of an epiphany regarding the ACC. The Panther brass' research showed that the ACC's schools were generally similarly sized (Pitt has 18K undergrad), were also research powers, and like Pitt (which has an endowment north of $2 million), most ACC schools were similarly well endowed. Also like Pitt, many of the ACC's schools took football and basketball very seriously. Finally, and most significantly, Pitt's research showed that most of that school's alums who had left the area had settled in VA, NC and FLA - prime ACC areas.

As an example, three years ago when Pitt played at Navy, Pitt had approximately 25K fans there - which is MUCH higher than Pitt normally travels. The speculation was that the large Pitt crowd was there in part because so many of them already lived in the DC metro and this was an easy opportunity to see their Panthers play. I expect the same kind of turnout for our games against Maryland and to a lesser degree, Virginia and Virginia Tech as well. In the years before the Hokies left for the ACC, that game was truning into a pretty spirited contest. Hopefully that picks up where it left off starting in 2013.

The more we looked at it all the more enticing the ACC became as we saw a really good fit on a lot of levels - both academic and athletic. I think we are very similar to Maryland with not quite as much basketball success but with quite a bit more football success. I'd be very surprised if we didn't eventually blossom into fierce rivals, especially given the pre-existing rivalries between the Steelers and the Ravens and between the Penguins and the Capitals. Also, we had previous relationships with three ACC schools: Miami, Virginia Tech and especially Boston College - whom we had played against for decades.

Also there is the issue of everyone being relatively close and playing all of our league games in the same time zone. That is a bigger deal than people might imagine. As for the distance thing, somebody on the Pitt board crunched the numbers and figured out that there are something like eight or nine ACC schools that are closer to Pittsburgh than the closest B12 school. That is a pretty big difference and likely why Pitt was pushing so hard to be accompanied by regional rivals if it was going to join the B12.

There is no question that right now the best teams in the B12 are better than the ACC's top teams. However between the cultural differences that would have existed, the way that league is run (all Texas all the time), the way the revs had been split and repeatedly fought over in the B12 vs. the ACC's historically egalitarian approach and the overall cultures of the institutions, it really became an easy decision.

Don't get me wrong, West Virginia will do just fine in the B12 and being a geographic and cultural outlier there is certainly preferrable to being stuck in the still wildly erratic Big East. However, if they are being honest, if given the choice, like us they would have chosen the ACC 10 out of 10 times for all of the reasons listed above. That said I'm sure that they would feel a helluva lot better about things if the B12 were to make room for Louisville and Cincinnati to join WVU.

Baloney, Pitt and WVU are in a similar position with regard to region, sports and academics. As an easy access state school WvU may be more open in their admissions (and failures) but their -graduates- have a record of success.

Beat Pitt
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2011 04:43 PM by LaRue777.)
11-22-2011 04:24 PM
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dcCid Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
(11-22-2011 04:24 PM)LaRue777 Wrote:  
(11-21-2011 04:58 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Sure do.

Pitt has always fancied itself to be a pseudo-B1G school if not a B1G athletic department. However that could have been accomplished with the benefit of so much more B1G money.

Also, Pitt is not a land grant university like so many B1G schools and that too hurt it. However, like many B1G schools, Pitt IS a research GIANT with most of that money coming in medicine and science. It is a very good school and a very difficult school to get into. Having been to most B1G campuses, I would say that Pitt's is most similar to Michigan's or Minnesota's but smaller. Urban but not Temple urban.

Several times over the years Pitt applied to and was denied admission into the B1G. Most famously was the time in the 40s when the school applied, was reportedly accepted, and announced to the world that it was B1G bound only to learn a few days later that they had been misinformed and that Michigan State was chosen in their place. That caused hard feelings for many years.

Then, during last year's B1G expansion process, as things were playing out it became clear that Pitt was not going to get a fair shake no matter what. According to the media consultants, of the available candidates, only Notre Dame's and Nebraska's television numbers were better than Pitt's and Pitt's research numbers - which the B1G said would be important when the process began - were significantly higher than both NU's and ND's. However what it all came down to was the BTN was already on in PA and Pitt wouldn't drive those subscriptions any further. Also, we were told, Penn State was leading the charge against Pitt and were instead championing Rutgers' cause.

That was neither surprising nor unexpected. It is not that dissimilar to what USF has been doing to UCF, vis-a-vie the Big East.

However during that period the Pitt fans and admin began having something of an epiphany regarding the ACC. The Panther brass' research showed that the ACC's schools were generally similarly sized (Pitt has 18K undergrad), were also research powers, and like Pitt (which has an endowment north of $2 million), most ACC schools were similarly well endowed. Also like Pitt, many of the ACC's schools took football and basketball very seriously. Finally, and most significantly, Pitt's research showed that most of that school's alums who had left the area had settled in VA, NC and FLA - prime ACC areas.

As an example, three years ago when Pitt played at Navy, Pitt had approximately 25K fans there - which is MUCH higher than Pitt normally travels. The speculation was that the large Pitt crowd was there in part because so many of them already lived in the DC metro and this was an easy opportunity to see their Panthers play. I expect the same kind of turnout for our games against Maryland and to a lesser degree, Virginia and Virginia Tech as well. In the years before the Hokies left for the ACC, that game was truning into a pretty spirited contest. Hopefully that picks up where it left off starting in 2013.

The more we looked at it all the more enticing the ACC became as we saw a really good fit on a lot of levels - both academic and athletic. I think we are very similar to Maryland with not quite as much basketball success but with quite a bit more football success. I'd be very surprised if we didn't eventually blossom into fierce rivals, especially given the pre-existing rivalries between the Steelers and the Ravens and between the Penguins and the Capitals. Also, we had previous relationships with three ACC schools: Miami, Virginia Tech and especially Boston College - whom we had played against for decades.

Also there is the issue of everyone being relatively close and playing all of our league games in the same time zone. That is a bigger deal than people might imagine. As for the distance thing, somebody on the Pitt board crunched the numbers and figured out that there are something like eight or nine ACC schools that are closer to Pittsburgh than the closest B12 school. That is a pretty big difference and likely why Pitt was pushing so hard to be accompanied by regional rivals if it was going to join the B12.

There is no question that right now the best teams in the B12 are better than the ACC's top teams. However between the cultural differences that would have existed, the way that league is run (all Texas all the time), the way the revs had been split and repeatedly fought over in the B12 vs. the ACC's historically egalitarian approach and the overall cultures of the institutions, it really became an easy decision.

Don't get me wrong, West Virginia will do just fine in the B12 and being a geographic and cultural outlier there is certainly preferrable to being stuck in the still wildly erratic Big East. However, if they are being honest, if given the choice, like us they would have chosen the ACC 10 out of 10 times for all of the reasons listed above. That said I'm sure that they would feel a helluva lot better about things if the B12 were to make room for Louisville and Cincinnati to join WVU.

Baloney, Pitt and WVU are in a similar position with regard to region, sports and academics. As an easy access state school WvU may be more open in their admissions (and failures) but their -graduates- have a record of success.

Beat Pitt

DR - thanks for sharing. I'm a caps fanand the rivarly with the Penguins is intense. Huge number of people here from Pittsburgh. Some bars in DC cater to Steeler fans during the football season.

LaRue - the statement was that WVA's first choice would probably be teh ACC. Academics is an excuse, WVA's mission is diferent so it skews whatever the stats are. In my opinion the underlying issue there is WVA leaving the conference that VA and NC played for back in 1861. The Germanys have reuinted, maybe someday the Virginia's will.
11-22-2011 07:17 PM
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catdaddy_2402 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
The only thing that sabotaged the Big East was the fact that it tried to serve two masters and it simply couldn't. Hybrid conferences in the big two sports are inherently unstable and instability means instead of strengthening the conference you have to waste time and resources firming up the foundation.

The Big East had the perfect opportunity a couple of years ago to secure it's place in the college sports world had they struck when the iron was hot. WVU beats the SEC Champ UGA in the Sugar Bowl (in Atlanta, considered the capital of the SEC) The next year BE champ Louisville beats ACC champ Wake Forest in the Orange Bowl. The next season BE champ WVU beats Oklahoma in the Fiesta. At that point the BE should have said "You know, this football thing is getting us some pretty damn good press. Maybe we need to listen to our football schools and add a couple of programs. This 8 team conference deal means we have an unbalanced schedules and not only does it cause us problems trying to find 5 OOC games when everybody else is is just booking 4, but it also hurts our TV package because with a lot fewer conference games our overall package is far less desirable. Who wants to pay to see our teams play 2 FCS games a year, or to play Northwest-Southern-Central State?

Then, when the football teams finally get through to everybody else that they need a 9th football playing school the basketball onlys try to force them to take Villanova....a FCS program that isn't anywhere near the FBS attendance requirements, as a private school is forever going to have fanbase problems, and doesn't have an acceptable long-term stadium solution.

The football side of the Big East was living on borrowed time when it was created in 1991, and over the years it has done nothing except shoot itself in the foot with every football move it has made.
11-22-2011 09:43 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
catdaddy, it was the moves The BEast didn't make that really hurt. By the time they got around to pushing Villanova, it was already way too late. The BEast should have stepped up big in 1991, to create a 10 team football conference. The BEast had a chance to neuter the ACC when the football side of the conference was first created, and they passed on it...
11-22-2011 09:51 PM
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catdaddy_2402 Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
(11-22-2011 09:51 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  catdaddy, it was the moves The BEast didn't make that really hurt. By the time they got around to pushing Villanova, it was already way too late. The BEast should have stepped up big in 1991, to create a 10 team football conference. The BEast had a chance to neuter the ACC when the football side of the conference was first created, and they passed on it...

You are more right than you will ever know. I know without a doubt that with the school admin and athletic dept in place at the time Clemson would have let UNC and the rest of the ACC fade to CUSA level obscurity if the Big East would have been proactive. FSU would have came along as well.
11-22-2011 10:04 PM
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bitcruncher Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
Trust me, dude. I know. My father was a beat writer for WVU at the time. He retired in 1993, and passed away 2 years ago...
11-22-2011 10:17 PM
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catdaddy_2402 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
Sadly, the Big East has evidently not been slapped in the face enough to realize the fact that the biggest enemy they have always had is themselves, and are about to do the same old things to simply survive rather than strengthen the conference. IMO the BE as a football conference dies a painful death in less than 10 years, and becomes a mid-major in basketball.
11-22-2011 11:26 PM
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AtlanticLeague Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
(11-22-2011 04:24 PM)LaRue777 Wrote:  
(11-21-2011 04:58 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Sure do.

Pitt has always fancied itself to be a pseudo-B1G school if not a B1G athletic department. However that could have been accomplished with the benefit of so much more B1G money.

Also, Pitt is not a land grant university like so many B1G schools and that too hurt it. However, like many B1G schools, Pitt IS a research GIANT with most of that money coming in medicine and science. It is a very good school and a very difficult school to get into. Having been to most B1G campuses, I would say that Pitt's is most similar to Michigan's or Minnesota's but smaller. Urban but not Temple urban.

Several times over the years Pitt applied to and was denied admission into the B1G. Most famously was the time in the 40s when the school applied, was reportedly accepted, and announced to the world that it was B1G bound only to learn a few days later that they had been misinformed and that Michigan State was chosen in their place. That caused hard feelings for many years.

Then, during last year's B1G expansion process, as things were playing out it became clear that Pitt was not going to get a fair shake no matter what. According to the media consultants, of the available candidates, only Notre Dame's and Nebraska's television numbers were better than Pitt's and Pitt's research numbers - which the B1G said would be important when the process began - were significantly higher than both NU's and ND's. However what it all came down to was the BTN was already on in PA and Pitt wouldn't drive those subscriptions any further. Also, we were told, Penn State was leading the charge against Pitt and were instead championing Rutgers' cause.

That was neither surprising nor unexpected. It is not that dissimilar to what USF has been doing to UCF, vis-a-vie the Big East.

However during that period the Pitt fans and admin began having something of an epiphany regarding the ACC. The Panther brass' research showed that the ACC's schools were generally similarly sized (Pitt has 18K undergrad), were also research powers, and like Pitt (which has an endowment north of $2 million), most ACC schools were similarly well endowed. Also like Pitt, many of the ACC's schools took football and basketball very seriously. Finally, and most significantly, Pitt's research showed that most of that school's alums who had left the area had settled in VA, NC and FLA - prime ACC areas.

As an example, three years ago when Pitt played at Navy, Pitt had approximately 25K fans there - which is MUCH higher than Pitt normally travels. The speculation was that the large Pitt crowd was there in part because so many of them already lived in the DC metro and this was an easy opportunity to see their Panthers play. I expect the same kind of turnout for our games against Maryland and to a lesser degree, Virginia and Virginia Tech as well. In the years before the Hokies left for the ACC, that game was truning into a pretty spirited contest. Hopefully that picks up where it left off starting in 2013.

The more we looked at it all the more enticing the ACC became as we saw a really good fit on a lot of levels - both academic and athletic. I think we are very similar to Maryland with not quite as much basketball success but with quite a bit more football success. I'd be very surprised if we didn't eventually blossom into fierce rivals, especially given the pre-existing rivalries between the Steelers and the Ravens and between the Penguins and the Capitals. Also, we had previous relationships with three ACC schools: Miami, Virginia Tech and especially Boston College - whom we had played against for decades.

Also there is the issue of everyone being relatively close and playing all of our league games in the same time zone. That is a bigger deal than people might imagine. As for the distance thing, somebody on the Pitt board crunched the numbers and figured out that there are something like eight or nine ACC schools that are closer to Pittsburgh than the closest B12 school. That is a pretty big difference and likely why Pitt was pushing so hard to be accompanied by regional rivals if it was going to join the B12.

There is no question that right now the best teams in the B12 are better than the ACC's top teams. However between the cultural differences that would have existed, the way that league is run (all Texas all the time), the way the revs had been split and repeatedly fought over in the B12 vs. the ACC's historically egalitarian approach and the overall cultures of the institutions, it really became an easy decision.

Don't get me wrong, West Virginia will do just fine in the B12 and being a geographic and cultural outlier there is certainly preferrable to being stuck in the still wildly erratic Big East. However, if they are being honest, if given the choice, like us they would have chosen the ACC 10 out of 10 times for all of the reasons listed above. That said I'm sure that they would feel a helluva lot better about things if the B12 were to make room for Louisville and Cincinnati to join WVU.

Baloney, Pitt and WVU are in a similar position with regard to region, sports and academics. As an easy access state school WvU may be more open in their admissions (and failures) but their -graduates- have a record of success.

Beat Pitt

Fact: Pitt > WVU

and here comes the rhodes scholars chatter
11-23-2011 12:15 AM
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texasorange Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
(11-20-2011 11:02 PM)NJRedMan Wrote:  
(11-20-2011 10:33 PM)texasorange Wrote:  Who cares? St. Johns is irrelevant and your constant trolling is now boring.

Trolling? It's a legit question. A month before they left Pitt lead the charge to turn down the ESPN contract. Were they in talks with the ACC at the time? Everyone who has followed realignment knows that it takes longer than a weekend to get these things done.

You are a troll based on your previous posts, and you promised not to post again if any BE teams left for the ACC. And as for the "talks", all university presidents have open dialogues with their counterparts at various peer institutions because they tend to belong to professional associations just as university professors do which means they interact at various conferences.
11-23-2011 12:21 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
(11-22-2011 11:26 PM)catdaddy_2402 Wrote:  Sadly, the Big East has evidently not been slapped in the face enough to realize the fact that the biggest enemy they have always had is themselves, and are about to do the same old things to simply survive rather than strengthen the conference. IMO the BE as a football conference dies a painful death in less than 10 years, and becomes a mid-major in basketball.

The Big East will never be a mid-major in basketball. However I do agree that as long as it tries to serve two masters, it will never reach its full potential.
11-23-2011 10:49 AM
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MinerEric Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Did Pitt and Cuse sabotage the Big East?
Pitt and Cuse are obviously part of the Illuminati whose master plan since 1986 was to destroy the Big East.
11-23-2011 10:57 AM
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