PHILADELPHIA -- Joe Frazier, the former heavyweight champion who handed Muhammad Ali his first defeat yet had to live forever in his shadow, died Monday night after a brief final fight with liver cancer. He was 67.

The family issued a release confirming the boxer's death.

Frazier, who took on Ali in three momentous fights in the 1970s -- including the epic Thrilla in Manilla -- had been under home hospice care after being diagnosed just weeks ago with the cancer that took his life, a family friend said. Until then, Frazier had been doing regular autograph appearances, including one in Las Vegas in September.

Smokin' Joe was a small yet ferocious fighter who smothered his opponents with punches, including a devastating left hook he used to end many of his fights early. It was the left hook that dropped Ali in the 15th round at Madison Square Garden in 1971 to seal a win in the so-called "Fight of the Century."

Though he beat Ali in that fight, Frazier lost the final two and for many years was bitter about the role Ali forced him to play as his foil.

Frazier was diagnosed last month with the disease, his personal and business manager said. Leslie Wolff, who has been Frazier's manager for seven years, said the boxer had been in out and out of the hospital since early October and receiving hospice treatment the last week.

Frazier was the first man to beat Ali, knocking him down and taking a decision in the so-called Fight of the Century in 1971. He would go on to lose two more fights to Ali, including the epic "Thrilla in Manila" bout.

Frazier was bitter for many years about the way Ali treated him then. More recently, he said he had forgiven Ali for repeatedly taunting him.

While the "Fight of the Century" is celebrated in boxing lore, Ali and Frazier put on an even better show in their third fight, held in a sweltering arena in Manila as part of Ali's world tour of fights in 1975. Nearly blinded by Ali's punches, Frazier still wanted to go out for the 15th round of the fight but was held back by trainer Eddie Futch in a bout Ali would later say was the closest thing to death he could imagine.

http://www.cbssports.com/general/story/1...dead-at-67

I wonder if Ali will issue any kind of statement, regarding Frazier's passing.

Ali doesn't have a choice, Foreman will likely issue a statement as well.

One of the five greatest heavyweights in boxing history, in my opinion. Rest in Peace, Smokin' Joe.

I'd rank smokin' Joe about 10th.... But maybe i'm biased because my wife once told me he tried to pick her up at a club in Washington DC, LOL (long before i met her).

So maybe 9th? Can't see him ranked ahead of Ali, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Johnson, Tunney, Holmes, or Tyson.

PS, here's Ali's statement on Frazier's passing:

"The world has lost a great champion," Ali said in a statement early Tuesday. "I will always remember Joe with respect and admiration. My sympathy goes out to his family and loved ones."

Yeah, it yor bias. No way I could put Tyson in the Top 10.

Ali from people close to him here in Louisville is taking it pretty hard and he has issed a statement. For the record Ali due to his condition is pretty much a mute now:

My top 10. I have it as a tie for Number 1 with 3 Heavyweights:
1. Muhammad Ali, Rocky Marciano & Joe Louis.
4. George Forman.
5. Joe Frazier
6. Jack Johnson
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Larry Holmes
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Sonny Liston

Honorable Mention:
Mike Tyson
Floyd Patterson
Gene Tunney
Evander Holyfield

It amazing in regards to Holmes that he started out as just a sparinng partner for Ali & Frazier.

I'm sorry to see that Smokin' Joe passed away. But dying of liver cancer is not a nice way to die. I'm glad he met his end swiftly, and without the suffering he'd have gone through had he went through all the stages of the disease...

But for you guys trying to rank the heavyweights, it goes like this...

1. Rocky Marciano (the only one to retired undefeated - 'nuf said)
2. Take your pick...

(11-08-2011 09:39 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  I'm sorry to see that Smokin' Joe passed away. But dying of liver cancer is not a nice way to die. I'm glad he met his end swiftly, and without the suffering he'd have gone through had he went through all the stages of the disease...

But for you guys trying to rank the heavyweights, it goes like this...

1. Rocky Marciano (the only one to retired undefeated - 'nuf said)
2. Take your pick...

The funny thing is Rocky is still being discounted because of lack of competition. I was watching an old Wide World of Sports one day and a young Ali was talking about Mariciano. The respect he had for him was very clear when speaking about the only undefeated heavyweight champion. Marciano problem was being stuck after Joe Louis & lack of competition. The best fighter he beat was Ezzard Charles. The main reason why Ali is mentioned is because of the competition was much stiffer. He ended up fighting Patterson, Norton, Liston, Foreman & Frazier. That is argubly 3 of the Top 10 Heavyweights in the history of the sport.

Maize, the fact is that Marciano retired unbeaten, and is the only fighter to do so...

Who knows what would happen if he and Ali stepped into the ring together, with both in their prime? It's just opinion...

Was it that Marciano had no competition? Or was he just so superior in his fighting skills that nobody else was close?

The Klitschko Brothers have to be include in this Group!

Vitali Klitschko (born 19 July 1971) and Wladimir Klitschko (born 25 March 1976), collectively known as The Klitschko brothers are Ukrainian heavyweight boxers.

They reside in Germany, where they are media stars. Both brothers made their professional debut on November 6, 1996 in Hamburg. Since then both have been heavyweight world champions in boxing. They have stated they will never fight each other.

After a series of injuries, Vitali had a career break of almost four years. In his comeback fight in Berlin on October 11, 2008 he defeated Samuel Peter to regain the title of WBC world heavyweight champion. At that time Wladimir was already world heavyweight champion with the WBO, IBF and IBO. This marked a historic first with two brothers world champions at the same time.[1][2] Vitali retained the WBC Heavyweight Championship in 2011. On July 2, 2011, Wladimir won the WBA Title, which means that the Klitschko brothers hold all of the World Heavyweight Titles collectively.

The Klitschko brothers jointly run the professional boxing promotion companies "K2 Promotions" and "K2 East Promotions" , as well as the "Klitschko Brothers Fund", a charity organisation. They appear together on German TV shows and commercials, have a common website klitschko.com and support each other's training and fights.

As of September 11th 2011, they have a combined professional boxing record of 99 wins and 5 defeats.

(11-08-2011 10:24 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Maize, the fact is that Marciano retired unbeaten, and is the only fighter to do so...

Who knows what would happen if he and Ali stepped into the ring together, with both in their prime? It's just opinion...

Was it that Marciano had no competition? Or was he just so superior in his fighting skills that nobody else was close?

Not disputing that, I just can't separate Marciano, Ali & Joe Louis. With Rocky Marciano it is/was probably a combination of superior fighting skills & lack of real strong competition.

Rocky Marciano, only undefeated Heavyweight Champion. Doubt we will ever see that again.

Muhammad Ali, the best of the best in the "Golden Age" of the Heavyweight Division

Joe Louis, nobody is going to come close to 25 Heavyweight Title Defenses.

But to be fair, we do have some kind of indictation IMHO on what would have happened. If anything Joe Frazier & Rocky Marciano styles are/were very similar. It would have been a hellva fight as would Frazier/Marciano. But just my opinion, Marciano-Foreman would have been ugly for Marciano. Foreman destroyed Small Heavyweights that came straight ahead.

(11-08-2011 11:27 AM)Maize Wrote:  

(11-08-2011 10:24 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Maize, the fact is that Marciano retired unbeaten, and is the only fighter to do so...

Who knows what would happen if he and Ali stepped into the ring together, with both in their prime? It's just opinion...

Was it that Marciano had no competition? Or was he just so superior in his fighting skills that nobody else was close?

Not disputing that, I just can't separate Marciano, Ali & Joe Louis. With Rocky Marciano it is/was probably a combination of superior fighting skills & lack of real strong competition.

Rocky Marciano, only undefeated Heavyweight Champion. Doubt we will ever see that again.

Muhammad Ali, the best of the best in the "Golden Age" of the Heavyweight Division

Joe Louis, nobody is going to come close to 25 Heavyweight Title Defenses.

But to be fair, we do have some kind of indictation IMHO on what would have happened. If anything Joe Frazier & Rocky Marciano styles are/were very similar. It would have been a hellva fight as would Frazier/Marciano. But just my opinion, Marciano-Foreman would have been ugly for Marciano. Foreman destroyed Small Heavyweights that came straight ahead.

I remember sitting through an interview my father did with a fellow who fought against Marciano, when I was 11 or so. The one thing about that interview that stuck in my mind was the guy saying that when you blocked the Rock's punches with your arms, they went numb, left you with no power, and in the later rounds you became defensive, with nothing left in the tank. He claimed nobody ever hit him anywhere near as hard as Marciano did, and no punch took such a toll on a man, especially those to the midsection...

It's hard to say, especially when you're talking about people from different eras. Most people go by what they've seen, and what everybody living today has seen is Ali-Frazier, Ali-Foreman, the Klitchko's, Mike Tyson, etc. Few today are alive who saw Marciano in his prime, and even they would be a poor judge...

The only way to determine it would be to put them all in the ring in their prime, and that's impossible. This is why I say it's impossible to say, except by record, and the records state that Marciano is the only man who remains unbeaten. Any other interpretation is purely subjective...

I remember Ali people saying Ali pissed off Marciano during their computer fight-(they ended up being friends) and let's just say Marciano let Ali know who he was lol.

Nobody can dispute the greatness of Marciano.

Sad loss for the boxing world...RIP Frazier. I doubt Marciano would have been as good in the 70s & 80s but can't fault him for that.

(11-08-2011 12:58 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(11-08-2011 11:27 AM)Maize Wrote:  

(11-08-2011 10:24 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Maize, the fact is that Marciano retired unbeaten, and is the only fighter to do so...

Who knows what would happen if he and Ali stepped into the ring together, with both in their prime? It's just opinion...

Was it that Marciano had no competition? Or was he just so superior in his fighting skills that nobody else was close?

Not disputing that, I just can't separate Marciano, Ali & Joe Louis. With Rocky Marciano it is/was probably a combination of superior fighting skills & lack of real strong competition.

Rocky Marciano, only undefeated Heavyweight Champion. Doubt we will ever see that again.

Muhammad Ali, the best of the best in the "Golden Age" of the Heavyweight Division

Joe Louis, nobody is going to come close to 25 Heavyweight Title Defenses.

But to be fair, we do have some kind of indictation IMHO on what would have happened. If anything Joe Frazier & Rocky Marciano styles are/were very similar. It would have been a hellva fight as would Frazier/Marciano. But just my opinion, Marciano-Foreman would have been ugly for Marciano. Foreman destroyed Small Heavyweights that came straight ahead.

I remember sitting through an interview my father did with a fellow who fought against Marciano, when I was 11 or so. The one thing about that interview that stuck in my mind was the guy saying that when you blocked the Rock's punches with your arms, they went numb, left you with no power, and in the later rounds you became defensive, with nothing left in the tank. He claimed nobody ever hit him anywhere near as hard as Marciano did, and no punch took such a toll on a man, especially those to the midsection...

It's hard to say, especially when you're talking about people from different eras. Most people go by what they've seen, and what everybody living today has seen is Ali-Frazier, Ali-Foreman, the Klitchko's, Mike Tyson, etc. Few today are alive who saw Marciano in his prime, and even they would be a poor judge...

The only way to determine it would be to put them all in the ring in their prime, and that's impossible. This is why I say it's impossible to say, except by record, and the records state that Marciano is the only man who remains unbeaten. Any other interpretation is purely subjective...

Actually, we do have a way to determine that: Computer simulation in the way of video games. Fight Night Round 5 (or is it 4?) is currently out there if you wanna see what would happen between Ali and Marciano or Frazier and Marciano...or Jack Johnson (who was from Galveston, Texas, by the way) and, say, George Foreman.

(11-08-2011 08:34 AM)Maize Wrote:  Yeah, it yor bias. No way I could put Tyson in the Top 10.

Ali from people close to him here in Louisville is taking it pretty hard and he has issed a statement. For the record Ali due to his condition is pretty much a mute now:

My top 10. I have it as a tie for Number 1 with 3 Heavyweights:
1. Muhammad Ali, Rocky Marciano & Joe Louis.
4. George Forman.
5. Joe Frazier
6. Jack Johnson
7. Jack Dempsey
8. Larry Holmes
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Sonny Liston

Honorable Mention:
Mike Tyson
Floyd Patterson
Gene Tunney
Evander Holyfield

It amazing in regards to Holmes that he started out as just a sparinng partner for Ali & Frazier.

Agreed. Also, nice list. Couldn't have put that together better myself.

(11-08-2011 12:58 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  

(11-08-2011 11:27 AM)Maize Wrote:  

(11-08-2011 10:24 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Maize, the fact is that Marciano retired unbeaten, and is the only fighter to do so...

Who knows what would happen if he and Ali stepped into the ring together, with both in their prime? It's just opinion...

Was it that Marciano had no competition? Or was he just so superior in his fighting skills that nobody else was close?

Not disputing that, I just can't separate Marciano, Ali & Joe Louis. With Rocky Marciano it is/was probably a combination of superior fighting skills & lack of real strong competition.

Rocky Marciano, only undefeated Heavyweight Champion. Doubt we will ever see that again.

Muhammad Ali, the best of the best in the "Golden Age" of the Heavyweight Division

Joe Louis, nobody is going to come close to 25 Heavyweight Title Defenses.

But to be fair, we do have some kind of indictation IMHO on what would have happened. If anything Joe Frazier & Rocky Marciano styles are/were very similar. It would have been a hellva fight as would Frazier/Marciano. But just my opinion, Marciano-Foreman would have been ugly for Marciano. Foreman destroyed Small Heavyweights that came straight ahead.

I remember sitting through an interview my father did with a fellow who fought against Marciano, when I was 11 or so. The one thing about that interview that stuck in my mind was the guy saying that when you blocked the Rock's punches with your arms, they went numb, left you with no power, and in the later rounds you became defensive, with nothing left in the tank. He claimed nobody ever hit him anywhere near as hard as Marciano did, and no punch took such a toll on a man, especially those to the midsection...

It's hard to say, especially when you're talking about people from different eras. Most people go by what they've seen, and what everybody living today has seen is Ali-Frazier, Ali-Foreman, the Klitchko's, Mike Tyson, etc. Few today are alive who saw Marciano in his prime, and even they would be a poor judge...

The only way to determine it would be to put them all in the ring in their prime, and that's impossible. This is why I say it's impossible to say, except by record, and the records state that Marciano is the only man who remains unbeaten. Any other interpretation is purely subjective...

I agreed until the bolded text, because it ignores 'strength of schedule'. It would be like saying "we have no way of knowing whether 13-0 DIII Slippery Rock or 13-1 Alabama is really better, but the record says Slippery Rock was undefeated and any other interpretation is purely subjective". But the record isn't objective unless comparable schedules were played.

We can look at the fighters Marciano fought. I don't they come close to the guys Ali fought. Seems inconceivable to me that the Rock could fight Liston twice, Foreman, Frazier 3 times, Norton 3 times, etc. and not suffer at least a few losses.

GS, computer simulations are fine for people who want to play games. But they don't replace real life experience, and are useless as a measure in determining a contest between 2 individuals in a physical contest. You can simulate all you want, and none of those simulations can create reality...

Steve, I'm ignoring SOS (as you so quaintly put it) because there is no true measure. Were the fighters in the 1970s so superior to those during Marciano's time? Or was Marciano just so much superior that it seemed that way? You have your opinion, which I think is worthless. There's no real way to judge...

(11-09-2011 10:26 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  GS, computer simulations are fine for people who want to play games. But they don't replace real life experience, and are useless as a measure in determining a contest between 2 individuals in a physical contest. You can simulate all you want, and none of those simulations can create reality...

That's a very, very good point, but it's the closest we're ever gonna get unless if we somehow magically invent time travel a la Stone Cold Steve Austin from Celebrity Deathmatch and get all of the greatest boxers smack in the middle of their primes and, well, let 'em get it on! And even then, it may not produce the results we want. (Besides, a good bit of the greatest heavyweights of all time already fought each other in real life...so there's that, at least.)