(11-02-2011 11:37 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  http://www.wvmetronews.com/hoppy.cfm?fun...ryid=48940

And this is the main reason they will prevail:

"In the Big East case, at some point WVU signed an agreement with a conference that had Virginia Tech, Miami, Boston College, Pitt and Syracuse as members. The departure of those schools, the decision by TCU to leave the league after one year, and the discussions by Connecticut, Louisville, Rutgers and Cincinnati with other conferences, have denigrated the league to the point where existence of the league, as the lawsuit says, “is in serious jeopardy.”

I do tend to disagree with the later part of their statement. I am not sure Louisville and Cincy went looking before WVU though in all honesty...

Okay, here's you you all can shoot at me...

This statement is not accurate. The $5M/27 month provision was formally adopted by the BE AFTER Miami, VT, and BC formally notified the BE that they were leaving. (In BC's case, the courts declared that the provisions did not apply to BC because of this fact.). IMO, if WVU had concerns about the fact that Miami, VT, and BC were leaving, they should not have agreed to the new exit terms.

The arguments that West Virginia has made in its lawsuit are pretty much garbage. However, when we look at the main question of whether WVU must stay for the 27-month period, the law is generally on WVU's side provided that monetary damages are paid. The Big East would need to show that monetary damages are not sufficient to compensate for WVU leaving and, therefore, it requires specific performance from WVU to stay the entire 27-month notice period. Short of the Big East dissolving entirely or losing its AQ status immediately upon WVU leaving, this is going to be tough to show for the Big East. Buyouts of long notice periods are much more the norm compared to actually staying for the entire periods.

What WVU is trying to do with its lawsuit is set an argument that it shouldn't have to pay ANY monetary damages, which almost certainly wouldn't fly. They're going to need to be something. Ultimately, that's what WVU and the Big East are going to end up haggling over. As much as it pained me to read that junk lawsuit from WVU, there's NFW that they're going to stay for that entire notice period. A buyout will eventually be agreed upon because that's ultimately what the law favors heavily over specific performance.

(11-03-2011 07:40 AM)Eagle78 Wrote:  

(11-02-2011 11:37 PM)USAFMEDIC Wrote:  http://www.wvmetronews.com/hoppy.cfm?fun...ryid=48940

And this is the main reason they will prevail:

"In the Big East case, at some point WVU signed an agreement with a conference that had Virginia Tech, Miami, Boston College, Pitt and Syracuse as members. The departure of those schools, the decision by TCU to leave the league after one year, and the discussions by Connecticut, Louisville, Rutgers and Cincinnati with other conferences, have denigrated the league to the point where existence of the league, as the lawsuit says, “is in serious jeopardy.”

I do tend to disagree with the later part of their statement. I am not sure Louisville and Cincy went looking before WVU though in all honesty...

Okay, here's you you all can shoot at me...

This statement is not accurate. The $5M/27 month provision was formally adopted by the BE AFTER Miami, VT, and BC formally notified the BE that they were leaving. (In BC's case, the courts declared that the provisions did not apply to BC because of this fact.). IMO, if WVU had concerns about the fact that Miami, VT, and BC were leaving, they should not have agreed to the new exit terms.

It seems like USAFMEDIC and WVMETRONEWS spent as much time reading the bylaws/facts as WVU's lawyers.

(11-03-2011 02:44 AM)OrangeCrush22 Wrote:  If WVU is allowed to leave then Syracuse and Pitt better be able to leave.

Ooooh; sounds like a lawsuit.

(11-03-2011 12:05 AM)Wedge Wrote:  I think WVU will win, or the BE will settle with them, because they filed their lawsuit in West Virginia.

A judge in West Virginia is not going to order WVU to stay in the Big East through June 2014.

The judge won't order WVU to stay, but might allow the Big East to try and collect more money if they can prove the BE will lose money as a result of WVU leaving in 2012 instead of 2014.

But there is the Supreme Court and the Big East can file a counter suites in a federal court and 13 other states as well.

(11-03-2011 06:25 AM)splitstud Wrote:  

(11-03-2011 05:36 AM)CorporateRobot Wrote:  Here's Why WVU Will NOT Win In Court: TIME

There is no way the legal system can move this through before the scheduling needs to be completed for the 2012 season.

So, the only way they "win" with this... is if this frivolous suit scares the Big East into settling faster or for less money. Otherwise, this is just WVU throwing spitballs.

They can leave anytime they want, but every day earlier that they leave will cost them more $$.

Exactly. It isn't going to be possible for WV to prevail in court in time to get the remedy they seek. The Big East doesn't seem to have any ability to just let the 3 teams walk before 2013 - they can't function as a conference without them. Very simply, WV goes nowhere for 2012 unless there are schools joining for 2012 to replace them.

Ditto x2. I read last night that AF/BSU 'could' be available, but the 3 CUSA schools not until 2013. I seriously doubt we'll see any school in for 2012 though, too many negative dominos would fall related to scheduling. These exit clauses exist for a reason. It's not money, it's to protect the ability of the conference to exist during the transition, to recruit new members. Otherwise, schools could bail in an instant and destroy a conference. Desperate hail mary by WV (and pathetic IMHO), no way it succeeds. I expect the BE could have made an exception for WV and been okay with 8 schools, but now why should the BE do WV/B12 any favors? That's why this lawsuit was a stupid move. Personally, I'd like to see WV gone asap, but if we need them that's what contracts are for...

Here's the important part . . . even if WV has the better argument, it will take them longer than June 30, 2012 to get to summary judgment on the same. Accordingly, if they leave precipitously before then (i.e., without a contractual release) and lose they will have opend themselves up to significant consequential damages flowing from their breach of the BE contract, e.g., cost of all replacement buy games needed to replace the vactae WVU games for all current BE teams for 2012 and 2013, all lost TV revenue due WV early exist (and should be lose its AQ in 2013 - there could be a claim for the present value of the future AQ TV earning lost in 2013-2017). In other words, its a very, very risky proposition for WV. The much easier position is for the B12 to hold up Mizzou's move to the SEC before WV can free itself of the BE. As the BE is in damaged position and stands to lose the most if WV bounces early, it has every incentive to pursue this litigation to the fullest.

Frankly, this type of case is a lawyers dream, very contentious and complicated case, lots of money on the line for both sides, both sides are well-funded and have principled positions to protect, lots public scrutiny (i.e., fame to be had for primary attorneys - there is no better advertising for a lawyer).

Heck, the change of venue motion itself will take 6 months to litigate. No way BE settles for adjudication in front of a WV state court. Better to move it to WV federal court where at least a Circuit Court sited in VA lies in wait of any biased WV decision.

(11-03-2011 07:59 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The arguments that West Virginia has made in its lawsuit are pretty much garbage. However, when we look at the main question of whether WVU must stay for the 27-month period, the law is generally on WVU's side provided that monetary damages are paid. The Big East would need to show that monetary damages are not sufficient to compensate for WVU leaving and, therefore, it requires specific performance from WVU to stay the entire 27-month notice period. Short of the Big East dissolving entirely or losing its AQ status immediately upon WVU leaving, this is going to be tough to show for the Big East. Buyouts of long notice periods are much more the norm compared to actually staying for the entire periods.

What WVU is trying to do with its lawsuit is set an argument that it shouldn't have to pay ANY monetary damages, which almost certainly wouldn't fly. They're going to need to be something. Ultimately, that's what WVU and the Big East are going to end up haggling over. As much as it pained me to read that junk lawsuit from WVU, there's NFW that they're going to stay for that entire notice period. A buyout will eventually be agreed upon because that's ultimately what the law favors heavily over specific performance.

Frank, if WVU can get out of the 27 month buyout for next season by paying a larger exit fee, does it not stand to reason that those same standards could be applied to SU and Pitt as well? As a fan of an ACC school, I would love for SU and PItt to come to the ACC next year as presumably the about-to-be renegotiated TV deal with ESPN could kick in that much sooner.

Of course, IF all three schools leave the BE for next season, where does that leave the BE if their replacements do not come until the following year (although presumably those schools could make the same claim for leaving their respective conferences early). This could get very messy.

(11-03-2011 07:59 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  The arguments that West Virginia has made in its lawsuit are pretty much garbage. However, when we look at the main question of whether WVU must stay for the 27-month period, the law is generally on WVU's side provided that monetary damages are paid. The Big East would need to show that monetary damages are not sufficient to compensate for WVU leaving and, therefore, it requires specific performance from WVU to stay the entire 27-month notice period. Short of the Big East dissolving entirely or losing its AQ status immediately upon WVU leaving, this is going to be tough to show for the Big East. Buyouts of long notice periods are much more the norm compared to actually staying for the entire periods.

What WVU is trying to do with its lawsuit is set an argument that it shouldn't have to pay ANY monetary damages, which almost certainly wouldn't fly. They're going to need to be something. Ultimately, that's what WVU and the Big East are going to end up haggling over. As much as it pained me to read that junk lawsuit from WVU, there's NFW that they're going to stay for that entire notice period. A buyout will eventually be agreed upon because that's ultimately what the law favors heavily over specific performance.

I do not believe it is tough at all for the Big East to show that West Virginia needs to perform a specific performance as each remaining conference member would need to find two opponents to play for next season which would be virtually impossible. Should WVU actually leave then Syracuse and Pitt, due to the above, would have cause to leave themselves as the conference would no longer be at 8 required members for the 2012 season and is not really a football conference at all. This would then leave the five remaining members with a four game schedule.

WVU is single-handidly destroying the conference with the blessing of the Big 12. They will both be hit with a major counter-suit.

I guess what the SEC did with Texas A&M now makes all the sense in the world.

(11-03-2011 09:04 AM)Eagle78 Wrote:  Frank, if WVU can get out of the 27 month buyout for next season by paying a larger exit fee, does it not stand to reason that those same standards could be applied to SU and Pitt as well? As a fan of an ACC school, I would love for SU and PItt to come to the ACC next year as presumably the about-to-be renegotiated TV deal with ESPN could kick in that much sooner.

Absolutely! NO ONE should mistake the public silence of Syracuse and Pitt to mean that they're just accepting the 27-month notice period. They haven't filed a lawsuit like WVU to make a squabble public, but rest assured that both Cuse and Pitt want to get out of the Big East ASAP just as much as WVU. Cuse and Pitt are just being way more professional about it by keeping the negotiations private. They're ultimately going to get out of the Big East just as quickly as WVU.

Quote:Of course, IF all three schools leave the BE for next season, where does that leave the BE if their replacements do not come until the following year (although presumably those schools could make the same claim for leaving their respective conferences early). This could get very messy.

This is where the Big East might have an argument for specific performance at least for 2012, where the league literally can't exist if the replacements can't come in time. Whenever the replacements come, though, the Big East's case for forcing the 3 schools that are leaving to stay becomes extremely difficult to do. Monetary damages are almost certainly going to be adequate in that case. It's just a matter of figuring out the amount of those monetary damages.

Is Navy available to play next season regardless? Could have WVU to B-12 and Navy to the BE and everyone else move in 2013.

I've long felt that having TCU and A&M move in 2012 and everyone else in 2013 makes the most sense for all. I realize that it is an every man and conference for themselves type of thing, but at some point everyone coming together and making some sort of rhyme and reason to the process.

(11-03-2011 09:20 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(11-03-2011 09:04 AM)Eagle78 Wrote:  Frank, if WVU can get out of the 27 month buyout for next season by paying a larger exit fee, does it not stand to reason that those same standards could be applied to SU and Pitt as well? As a fan of an ACC school, I would love for SU and PItt to come to the ACC next year as presumably the about-to-be renegotiated TV deal with ESPN could kick in that much sooner.

Absolutely! NO ONE should mistake the public silence of Syracuse and Pitt to mean that they're just accepting the 27-month notice period. They haven't filed a lawsuit like WVU to make a squabble public, but rest assured that both Cuse and Pitt want to get out of the Big East ASAP just as much as WVU. Cuse and Pitt are just being way more professional about it by keeping the negotiations private. They're ultimately going to get out of the Big East just as quickly as WVU.

Quote:Of course, IF all three schools leave the BE for next season, where does that leave the BE if their replacements do not come until the following year (although presumably those schools could make the same claim for leaving their respective conferences early). This could get very messy.

This is where the Big East might have an argument for specific performance at least for 2012, where the league literally can't exist if the replacements can't come in time. Whenever the replacements come, though, the Big East's case for forcing the 3 schools that are leaving to stay becomes extremely difficult to do. Monetary damages are almost certainly going to be adequate in that case. It's just a matter of figuring out the amount of those monetary damages.

Good points. Agree on both.

Also, to reiterate which has been mentioned by some.....the problem for WVU is TIME.

AND one thing we know the Big East is really GOOD at is dragging things out and taking a LONG TIME to do anything.

You thought the expansion process was slow.....you haven't seen anything yet.

(11-03-2011 07:18 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Are there venue and choice of law provisions in the Big East contract containing the 27 month clause?

Does it stipulate that all disputes have to be litigated in Rhode Island, for example?

Is there an arbitration clause in the contract? Does it require the parties to arbitrate in New York or Providence?

We know there is "choice of law" provisions. As the law being used is DC law. I can't believe there isn't arbitration or venue/forum clauses.

(11-03-2011 09:17 AM)snowycuse Wrote:  WVU is single-handidly destroying the conference with the blessing of the Big 12.

Whew...pretty strong accusation from a fan of a team that hit the door as soon as it was given the opportunity. Could easily be argued that had SU and Pitt not bolted, WVU might not have gone anywhere.......

The lawsuit may well not stay in WV if the courts decide it's a federal case. Moreover, if the Big East files, they will do so in Rhode Island court.

WVU's arguments are meaningless, since all schools were laboring under the same limitations, and even those who left first agreed that the 27-month clause was valid.

WVU was definitely making inquiries before Louisville (and CIncinnati) - we've known for years they were trying to get into the SEC. The Big 12 thing is relatively recent for them.

This lawsuit leaves their new conference wide open to litigation for tortious interference. Neinas' statements in a recent interview that WVU was accepted only on condition that they'd be playing a B12 schedule in 2012 is reason enough for the Big East to sue them... and win.

No matter what happens, the Big East comes out the winner in this one. WVU's lack of good faith and the Big 12's blatant attempt at ignoring conference agreements can only come back and bite them in the end.

(11-03-2011 10:00 AM)The Brown Bull Wrote:  Also, to reiterate which has been mentioned by some.....the problem for WVU is TIME.

AND one thing we know the Big East is really GOOD at is dragging things out and taking a LONG TIME to do anything.

You thought the expansion process was slow.....you haven't seen anything yet.

Not sure I agree on the time thing. I mean, yeah, definitely things could drag out in terms of legal process of determining damages, but it doesn't seem like the BE can "force" WVU to stay and compete in the league, regardless.

The other question is whether the league really wants all the dirty laudry to come out in a prolonged legal process. I suspect it doesn't.

Also, there are individual institutions in the BE that still are interested in the B-12 that probably don't want to burn that bridge and would prefer to just move on.

So I think it all adds up to a settlement will be reached sooner than later. We are at that early stage where the parties involved are bunkering down for war, where it seems like a resolution is impossible. But over time, the sentiment to move on will overtake the sentiment to fight and something will be worked out.

(11-03-2011 10:11 AM)Frog in the Kitchen Sink Wrote:  

(11-03-2011 10:00 AM)The Brown Bull Wrote:  Also, to reiterate which has been mentioned by some.....the problem for WVU is TIME.

AND one thing we know the Big East is really GOOD at is dragging things out and taking a LONG TIME to do anything.

You thought the expansion process was slow.....you haven't seen anything yet.

Not sure I agree on the time thing. I mean, yeah, definitely things could drag out in terms of legal process of determining damages, but it doesn't seem like the BE can "force" WVU to stay and compete in the league, regardless.

The other question is whether the league really wants all the dirty laudry to come out in a prolonged legal process. I suspect it doesn't.

Also, there are individual institutions in the BE that still are interested in the B-12 that probably don't want to burn that bridge and would prefer to just move on.

So I think it all adds up to a settlement will be reached sooner than later. We are at that early stage where the parties involved are bunkering down for war, where it seems like a resolution is impossible. But over time, the sentiment to move on will overtake the sentiment to fight and something will be worked out.

Agreed. This is how 99% of lawsuits work. WVU wants to try to get out of paying a full boat of money damages, so this lawsuit they've filed argues that the conference was going to collapse and the leadership failed in its fiduciary responsibilities. On the flip side, the Big East wants to make sure that they get the maximum amount of money damages, so their leverage is the 27-month notice period. If you give all parties involved truth serum, absolutely no one expects WVU (or Cuse or Pitt) to stay in the Big East for 27 months. Maybe they'll need to stay in 2012 if other related conference movements can't happen quickly enough (i.e. Mizzou to the SEC, MWC/C-USA schools to the Big East), but there's no way that everyone is still going to be around in 2013. This is all about maximizing (for the Big East) or minimizing (for WVU) the damages that need to be paid out in order to compensate for the notice period. Lame ducks aren't good for anyone.

It depends on what you mean by "win." The lawsuit is effective, I think, because it is going to make the Big East come to the discussion table. Nobody is going to want to go through with this litigation - including WVU. The Big East probably also has a lot to lose in discovery where things will come out that they may not necessarily want being leaked to the public. If they choose to play hardball with WVU they risk harming themselves (through perception, at least) as well.

I keep hearing that the Big East can't get this suit removed to federal court because of an exception for the states and apparently WVU is claiming that WVU is really an alter ego (or the same person/entity) as the state of West Virginia. I'd have to look into that. I don't remember that exception in 1332 (as TerryD mentioned).

Whatever happens, though, will have no legally binding effect on Pitt and Syracuse. WVU's case does not set "precedent" as I keep hearing people say, for the other two parties.

As the BE recruits new schools, isn't it promising those schools that there will be a bigger tv contract than the old BE had? If that's true that they are promising that, how can they maintain that they are monetarily damaged by the early departure of WV?