(12-13-2011 12:11 AM)sdsucwsl Wrote:  ECU fans remind me of a psycho ex-girlfriend.

(12-12-2011 10:22 PM)brista21 Wrote:  Didn't read it all, but FWIW ECU should be in the Big East. But I've been saying that for a long time.

WOW now we are being attacked from San Diego a town I was raised in. Dad MCRD. Live on Cleveland St off of Washington Ave where the old Sears was. Please don't go there. You know nothing about ECU so don't jump to conclusions but I was raised a Padre, Charger fan ( they played there 1st Pro game at our stadium San Diego High, Lance Alworth & Speedy Duncan was our Rec coaches ) & AN AZTEC FAN. So please don't make me turn my back on you. From an ECU fan, I know both programs. I believe you will surprise a lot of people, in fact the next Miami because of the beach. What High School FB wouldn't want to go there if they thought they had a chance to play in the BcS. But you DO NOT deserve your AQ over ECU, you got lucky. ECU has done more with less than any school I know.

(12-13-2011 12:38 AM)Metacog Drivel Wrote:  So much injustice in the world of college football...I dunno what ECU's fixation is on attendance though, who cares? We all know attendance isn't driving the expansion bus.

Because you are lucky if you have a sell out & 20% of that sell out are free tickets!

First, 20% are not free tickets, but that doesn't really matter either way. Even if we got 10k-15k people to the stadium, it wouldn't matter. Have you seen SMU's attendance? Yeah, and they got an invite due to potential and market.

And so I reiterate myself, attendance isn't driving the expansion bus.

(12-13-2011 12:38 AM)Metacog Drivel Wrote:  So much injustice in the world of college football...I dunno what ECU's fixation is on attendance though, who cares? We all know attendance isn't driving the expansion bus.

They fixate on it since it is the thing they do best so they want it to be valued. Unfortunately it appears that all the leagues they desire or desired don't seem to care much about that. Still since that is their best attribute they hold on to the hope that it will be valued and continue to try to tear down anybody that doesn't show off that attribute even if that team acquires what they wanted. In having these teams taken they feel hurt and then angry since these teams were taken by attributes that they did not value.

(12-13-2011 12:38 AM)Metacog Drivel Wrote:  So much injustice in the world of college football...I dunno what ECU's fixation is on attendance though, who cares? We all know attendance isn't driving the expansion bus.

We obviously realize that attendance is of no consequence to the BE. The fact that it is not important is unbelievable to us quite frankly.

You see we understand what college football is all about, why it is special to people, we understand why college football drives the bus. College football is about passion and commitment, it's about your teams game being important in your life, its about meaning. It's about being despondant for a couple days when you lose, it's about thousands of people sitting in the parking lot calling the post game shows demanding coaches being fired after every loss.

See we get it, we understand why college football on Saturdays in the fall is the special. We get the tradition and the passion and the tailgate, we get being in the stadium 30 minutes before kickoff.

We understand college football is about all those things and more, not about two large market teams in half empty stadiums who are two time zones away from each other.

Attendance matters, it is the measure of a program and its commitment, if the fans don't care enough to show up on saturdays it is a direct reflection on its passion and commitment or lack thereof.

Va Tech gets it, WVa gets it, every top program in the country gets it, the BE administration however does not get it.

You see, ECU understands and values the things that make college football what it is and attendance is a tangible measure of that. What ECU doesn't understand is why the BE doesn't understand it or care. What we realize is that had the BE added a couple of passionate football first schools in 2003 they would have given those programs time to grow and been in a much different situation this go around yet they are making the same mistake all over again. We know that given BCS money and access we can be the kind of program that helps the BE and its football profile.

Actually, I believe most ECU fans are now off the BE bandwagon. The only real reason was the AQ tag. However,
We prefer a Southern Conference, not a Northern one.
We enjoy our association with Southern Miss, and now Marshall
CUSA has very good baseball, and the basketball is coming back.

If things work out, the AQ goes away, and the defectors will be the ones crying. Get rid of the glass ceiling AQ, and watch out for the potential of the CUSA teams.

TL;DR

Attendance is a pretty good indicator of a fanbase's passion for the school. It's also a pretty good indicator of how we draw in bowl games. But for the Big East football is more of a loss leader for basketball, the simplest way to drive up the TV money for the non-football schools. Fankly it's mind-blowing that football attendance doesn't matter to the Big East but we'll continue to pave our own way. Like another poster said I'd much rather be in a southern conference. The Big East would've been nothing more than a pass thru league like it has been for many.

What I haven't understood through the whole process, is what I can consider a warped sense of thinking by "football fans" when it comes to whether their schools are getting a mega TV contract or not. I've said before that unless you're an administrator or coach at one of these universities, none of this additional revenue is going in your pockets.

I do understand that it opens doors to be able to pay for better coaches and facilities, but bottom line is NONE OF US see any of this money in our pockets.

The only thing I care about when it comes to realignment is ECU's ability to do three things.

1. Play and win against a good quality schedule. This makes for exciting games and attendance will stay where it is now or rise. These regional games against the likes of SEC and ACC schools are fun to watch and lead to..........
2. Easy travel for fans. I wouldn't want to pay for a ticket, a plane ride and hotel to go see ECU play on the other side of the country. Some of do have to live on a budget. Regional games give fans the ability to drive to away games to support their teams. The more the fans show up home and away (12th man) the better chance our team has of winning which leads to............
3. Bowl games. I'm personally tired of the lower rated conferences getting sh*t bowls. IMO it's a travesty that Boise is going to the Humanitarian Bowl and not something better.

This was the only reason for me and very early in the process that the BE looked like the place to go. Not because my alma mater could make millions of dollars in the process, but it made it easier on the fans to support our teams.

(12-13-2011 07:46 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  Attendance is a pretty good indicator of a fanbase's passion for the school. It's also a pretty good indicator of how we draw in bowl games. But for the Big East football is more of a loss leader for basketball, the simplest way to drive up the TV money for the non-football schools. Fankly it's mind-blowing that football attendance doesn't matter to the Big East but we'll continue to pave our own way. Like another poster said I'd much rather be in a southern conference. The Big East would've been nothing more than a pass thru league like it has been for many.

Attendance is a pretty good indicator of ECU fans not ever having anything important to do on a Saturday zing!

Those millions would've helped us keep up in the arms race. Make no mistake about it that would've been huge for ECU. We've been doing things the hard way for a long times in terms of money. That's part of the reason TH wants to expand again; More revenue that we can actually control.

(12-13-2011 08:00 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 07:46 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  Attendance is a pretty good indicator of a fanbase's passion for the school. It's also a pretty good indicator of how we draw in bowl games. But for the Big East football is more of a loss leader for basketball, the simplest way to drive up the TV money for the non-football schools. Fankly it's mind-blowing that football attendance doesn't matter to the Big East but we'll continue to pave our own way. Like another poster said I'd much rather be in a southern conference. The Big East would've been nothing more than a pass thru league like it has been for many.

Attendance is a pretty good indicator of ECU fans not ever having anything important to do on a Saturday zing!

For ECU fans that is THE most important thing to do on a Saturday. Once again our culture vs. BE culture couldn't be any more different.

(12-13-2011 08:08 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 08:00 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 07:46 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  Attendance is a pretty good indicator of a fanbase's passion for the school. It's also a pretty good indicator of how we draw in bowl games. But for the Big East football is more of a loss leader for basketball, the simplest way to drive up the TV money for the non-football schools. Fankly it's mind-blowing that football attendance doesn't matter to the Big East but we'll continue to pave our own way. Like another poster said I'd much rather be in a southern conference. The Big East would've been nothing more than a pass thru league like it has been for many.

Attendance is a pretty good indicator of ECU fans not ever having anything important to do on a Saturday zing!

For ECU fans that is THE most important thing to do on a Saturday. Once again our culture vs. BE culture couldn't be any more different.

Yep last time I checked the 2 conferences that matter the most, BIG and SEC, all have fan bases that don't just consider football an important thing to do but THE important thing to do. Also maybe I am just weird but just as a TV product I usually choose to watch games that have sold out stadiums, because it just makes for a better product to watch. You can feel the excitement through the TV and the energy level in the stadium. I don't mean this as any shot towards the MAC, but I can't stand watching these games in front of 1,000 people on a Tuesday. Just makes me think why should I care if no one around there cares either?

(12-13-2011 08:08 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 08:00 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 07:46 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  Attendance is a pretty good indicator of a fanbase's passion for the school. It's also a pretty good indicator of how we draw in bowl games. But for the Big East football is more of a loss leader for basketball, the simplest way to drive up the TV money for the non-football schools. Fankly it's mind-blowing that football attendance doesn't matter to the Big East but we'll continue to pave our own way. Like another poster said I'd much rather be in a southern conference. The Big East would've been nothing more than a pass thru league like it has been for many.

Attendance is a pretty good indicator of ECU fans not ever having anything important to do on a Saturday zing!

For ECU fans that is THE most important thing to do on a Saturday. Once again our culture vs. BE culture couldn't be any more different.

You got it. :ecu:

Let's see

Choice one - Tailgate and Pirates game

Choice two - Mow the grass, wash the car, change the oil

Pretty easy choice.

Schools with large fan bases and good attendance would be pretty stupid to not attempt to display their strength while downplaying their weakness, such as market size.

Conversely, schools with very small fan bases and no interest in their program (as compared to flagship programs within their states) would attempt to diminish the importance of attendance and games, and divert the attention to other factors such as market size, that would play to their advantage.

I prefer common sense.

1. Schools build on-campus stadiums to capacities that "fit" the size of the fan base. That's why Tulane, for instance, just announced a cozy, on-campus stadium that will adequately fit their needs and can be expanded in the future. They're not building 100,000 seats to begin with.

2. I would venture to say that the percentage of a total fan base that actually attends games is remarkably similar across the board. Common excuses that "we have more to do in big cities than go to college football games" doesn't hold water. There's no way to measure this, but using attendance is probably a pretty reliable measure of the popularity of a program, regardless of markets or state boundaries, etc. Using Florida as an example, UF probably has the largest fan base of any school in the state; followed by FSU, then Miami, then USF, then UCF, etc. Sure, Miami may draw more from the Miami area than FSU, but overall, the sizes of the fan bases are probably in line with attendance.

3. Fan bases extend way beyond DMA's. All 90,000+ fans that visit The Swamp on Saturdays don't live in the Gainsville DMA. Nor do all 32,000 fans that visit Nippert Stadium live in Cincinnati. That would indicate that the University of Florida probably has more market "reach" than Cincinnati, just due to the size of the fan base.

4. Using Cincinnati as an example, they draw 32,000 people per game while OSU draws over 105,000. What's more impressive is that OSU is at 102% capacity. There's no telling how many they could fit if they had a stadium large enough to hold everyone. Again, common sense tells me the relative strength of the fanbase in the "pecking order" in the state. While Cincinnati is more popular than Ohio or Miami (OH) or Kent State, they pale in comparison to the state flagship in terms of popularity.

5. The top 10 for attendance in 2011 are Michigan, Ohio State, Alabama, Penn State, Texas, Tennessee, LSU, UGA, Florida and Texas A&M. Common sense tells me that those are some of the most popular programs in the country. If you took a national poll for favorite teams, the top 10 would look eerily similar to that. Believe it or not, there is a correlation between attendance and popularity (size of the fan base).

posting in a thread i didn't read

Despite any beliefs about attendance, it's beyond time for us ECU fans to accept the fact that it is not a determining factor in expansion decisions; especially for the Big East. Their business model is large TV markets, which we don't fit.

I've moved on. I would hope all my fellow Pirates can as well. Let's continue doing what we're doing and make ECU all it can be. It's not a knock on the Big East; I wish them well. Time to move on and realize it's not for us.

(12-13-2011 09:00 AM)ECUPirated Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 08:08 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 08:00 AM)Jugnaut Wrote:  

(12-13-2011 07:46 AM)NoQuarter08 Wrote:  Attendance is a pretty good indicator of a fanbase's passion for the school. It's also a pretty good indicator of how we draw in bowl games. But for the Big East football is more of a loss leader for basketball, the simplest way to drive up the TV money for the non-football schools. Fankly it's mind-blowing that football attendance doesn't matter to the Big East but we'll continue to pave our own way. Like another poster said I'd much rather be in a southern conference. The Big East would've been nothing more than a pass thru league like it has been for many.

Attendance is a pretty good indicator of ECU fans not ever having anything important to do on a Saturday zing!

For ECU fans that is THE most important thing to do on a Saturday. Once again our culture vs. BE culture couldn't be any more different.

You got it. :ecu:

Let's see

Choice one - Tailgate and Pirates game

Choice two - Mow the grass, wash the car, change the oil

Pretty easy choice.

Lots of stuff to do here, troll. Play golf, shopping, go to the beach, boating, fishing, hunting....or watch other teams on TV.
I think it's stupid to put all of this effort into football and if a school fills the seats then the rest of these teams who can't fill their stadium start busting on the city, the school, the fans. This must be the flame ECU board. I guess this league wants team who can't fill their stadium.
Some "market" that is.
This league is dumb not to include ECU. Flat out dumb as a box of rocks. What do you think they're doing in State College or South Bend on a
Saturday? Or Tallahassee or Gainsville or Austin? I guess they don't have anything better to do either.
You cannot cover the stink that is the Big East Conference now. It's so going to come back to roost.

(12-13-2011 09:38 AM)piratefan1975 Wrote:  Schools with large fan bases and good attendance would be pretty stupid to not attempt to display their strength while downplaying their weakness, such as market size.

Conversely, schools with very small fan bases and no interest in their program (as compared to flagship programs within their states) would attempt to diminish the importance of attendance and games, and divert the attention to other factors such as market size, that would play to their advantage.

I prefer common sense.

1. Schools build on-campus stadiums to capacities that "fit" the size of the fan base. That's why Tulane, for instance, just announced a cozy, on-campus stadium that will adequately fit their needs and can be expanded in the future. They're not building 100,000 seats to begin with.

2. I would venture to say that the percentage of a total fan base that actually attends games is remarkably similar across the board. Common excuses that "we have more to do in big cities than go to college football games" doesn't hold water. There's no way to measure this, but using attendance is probably a pretty reliable measure of the popularity of a program, regardless of markets or state boundaries, etc. Using Florida as an example, UF probably has the largest fan base of any school in the state; followed by FSU, then Miami, then USF, then UCF, etc. Sure, Miami may draw more from the Miami area than FSU, but overall, the sizes of the fan bases are probably in line with attendance.

3. Fan bases extend way beyond DMA's. All 90,000+ fans that visit The Swamp on Saturdays don't live in the Gainsville DMA. Nor do all 32,000 fans that visit Nippert Stadium live in Cincinnati. That would indicate that the University of Florida probably has more market "reach" than Cincinnati, just due to the size of the fan base.

4. Using Cincinnati as an example, they draw 32,000 people per game while OSU draws over 105,000. What's more impressive is that OSU is at 102% capacity. There's no telling how many they could fit if they had a stadium large enough to hold everyone. Again, common sense tells me the relative strength of the fanbase in the "pecking order" in the state. While Cincinnati is more popular than Ohio or Miami (OH) or Kent State, they pale in comparison to the state flagship in terms of popularity.

5. The top 10 for attendance in 2011 are Michigan, Ohio State, Alabama, Penn State, Texas, Tennessee, LSU, UGA, Florida and Texas A&M. Common sense tells me that those are some of the most popular programs in the country. If you took a national poll for favorite teams, the top 10 would look eerily similar to that. Believe it or not, there is a correlation between attendance and popularity (size of the fan base).

A number of good points in your post. Just want to correct the facts in your Florida example in which you list attendance ranking with Miami 3rd & USF 4th. Since the decline of Miami football coinciding with its entrance into the ACC & with the emergence of USF football as they have built their program, USF has higher attendance than Miami most of the time in recent years. Here's how their attendance compares over the past 4 years (in the thousands) with the most recent year first:

USF -- 40,8 - 52,5 - 49,6 - 53,1
Miami - 52,5 - 47,5 - 46,2 - 43,5

You have very effectively articulated the pro-ECU argument. As I said , all good points. However, it must be balanced against the other side of the argument. Attendance doesn't make money for anyone else in the conference. Only for the home team. TV contracts make money for everyone. Hence, the market size argument.

Teams that draw TV viewership outside their market do so because there's interest that goes beyond the loyal following. That interest is normally generated by a winning record. ECU has had only 4 winning seasons in the past 11 years, i.e. since the turn of the century. That's a problem for the notion that they will generate interest beyond their fan base. Teams that don't have winning seasons don't go to bowls, so it also undermines the traveling fan base argument. Moreover, ECU isn't close to any other Big East schools, so just how far are they going to travel even to regular season games?

The other problem that ECU has even with their attendance is their ceiling. There's only so high that their popularity can go because they're in a state with a population of 9 million, about the same size as New Jersey. IN NC, they have competition form UNC & NC State, both of whom draw more fans than ECU does. While ECU fans love to disparage Duke & Wake, the fact is that they combine for more fans than ECU draws, so they count for something in the college football landscape. Finally, NC has one of the best I-AA programs in the country & it draws very well for I-AA. Lastly, there's an NFL franchise in the state with its own fan base. None of this is to disparage what ECU has accomplished. Only to point out that it is a market with a lot of competition for the local college football fan.

For all the criticism of the Big East, their expansion plans have been guided by a team of media consultants, not by some group of village idiots as is often claimed here. Undoubtedly these consultants, experts in their field, have looked at all the factors you present & more. They've drawn a different conclusion than you have.

Melky....Duke and Wake DO NOT combine for more fans than ECU. That's a BIG myth believed by folks that don't or haven't lived in NC. Duke has 2 types of fans. Students / graduates and bandwagon basketball fans. WF's fanbase is almost non-existent, even in NC. ECU's fanbase isn't as far behind NCSU as many of you believe either. That's part of the perception problem being the only non-AQ FBS in the state. Also UNC, NCSU and Duke share the same market. ECU has their own market.