(06-20-2011 01:18 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I guess the best way to piss off BC would be adding Umass to the Big East.

Unfortunately that might piss off UConn as well.

(06-20-2011 01:03 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  Who cares about BC? . . . little TV name exposure outside of the Boston area.

I think that TV probably does care. A Big East with BC solidifies the conference's hold on the Northeast in general & with the exception of Penn State makes them collectively the conference of interest north of DC for football & including DC for basketball. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

(06-20-2011 03:22 PM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  Think it will still be the same in ten years? I forsee Uconn football taking off (from a fan base standpoint) just like it has in hoops


Jackson

Good point.

(06-24-2011 07:46 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  

(06-20-2011 01:03 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  Who cares about BC? . . . little TV name exposure outside of the Boston area.

I think that TV probably does care. A Big East with BC solidifies the conference's hold on the Northeast in general & with the exception of Penn State makes them collectively the conference of interest north of DC for football & including DC for basketball. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Notre Dame should listen to your advice. If the Big East could add Boston College and if, Notre Dame and Villanova were to play Big East football, the Big East would be set.

If the Big East did indeed contact BC, I'm sure it was no more than an informal check-off as the conference works toward it's expansion goals. If you are in favor of The Big East expanding past 9 Big East football playing members, you want this to be true. Chances are BC isn't the only BCS program The Big East has contacted. I would guess calls have went out to Maryland, VaTech and Virginia as well. BCS programs in The Big East's northeastern footprint would almost certainly be targets.
CJ

(06-26-2011 06:31 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  

(06-24-2011 07:46 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  

(06-20-2011 01:03 PM)Cubanbull Wrote:  Who cares about BC? . . . little TV name exposure outside of the Boston area.

I think that TV probably does care. A Big East with BC solidifies the conference's hold on the Northeast in general & with the exception of Penn State makes them collectively the conference of interest north of DC for football & including DC for basketball. Sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Notre Dame should listen to your advice. If the Big East could add Boston College and if, Notre Dame and Villanova were to play Big East football, the Big East would be set.

You seem to be going for the Catholic angle & I hadn't really thought of that before other than for ND.

If BYU can develop a big following because of their Mormon following that goes beyond geographic interest & Notre Dame can do the same with Catholics, a consortium of 3 Catholic schools can expand that - in addition to whatever generic local interest BC & Villanova might pull in Boston & Philly. The Catholic angle probably explains part of the appeal of the Big East's non-football schools in basketball.

(06-26-2011 08:47 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  If the Big East did indeed contact BC, I'm sure it was no more than an informal check-off as the conference works toward it's expansion goals. If you are in favor of The Big East expanding past 9 Big East football playing members, you want this to be true. Chances are BC isn't the only BCS program The Big East has contacted. I would guess calls have went out to Maryland, VaTech and Virginia as well. BCS programs in The Big East's northeastern footprint would almost certainly be targets.
CJ

Agreed. Particularly BC and Maryland. It's why we keep hearing so much about "identity" lately.

Personally I think in terms of the football programs, as long as at least half of the teams are perceived "northeastern" (which both Pitt and WVU are - though they may not considered themselves such) than that is sufficient.

This is why I personally don't see identity reasons being important for having a Villanova or a Navy as #10 - but do consider it somewhat more important for whomever is #12.

If the league is indeed struggling with "identity" issues for #10 then it's more likely an excuse to block further expansion then truly about identity.

Cheers,
Neil

Wilkie:

I have asked for years for someone to list the negatives and positives for Notre Dame football to join the Big East. Not the positives for the Big East, but for Notre Dame football (not the other sports).

If you were the ND decision maker, would the positives of joining justify the decision, would it outweigh the negatives? How so?

Scheduling? BCS access? Home attendance? TV ratings? Recruiting?

Those are the reasons that schools band together in football conferences, because alone they have problems with some or all of these items and find that banding together in a collective best suits their interests.

Bill is probably right about the Catholic angle for the appeal of the non-football schools in basketball. I just naturally tend to root for the Catholic schools like Villanova and Marquette if they are not playing ND. I want to see those schools do well.

If a Catholic school is playing a non-Catholic school in basketball, I find myself naturally sort of pulling for the Catholic school to win. That is just my nature.

The participation of the Catholic schools in BE basketball is probably is one reason I chose to follow and have any interest the Big East in the first place, even before ND joined the conference. (The other reason is that I grew up in Western Pennsylvania, now live in the Deep South and hate the SEC with a passion).

For me, being an Irish Catholic is a big part of my identity (the other big part is being the son and grandson of Western Pennsylvania coal miners and steelworkers). That is largely how I identify myself. That is a big deal to me and trumps geography.

So, yes, I tend to follow and pull for the Catholic schools overall. There are very likely millions of other guys just like me all over the country.

(06-28-2011 07:26 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Wilkie:

I have asked for years for someone to list the negatives and positives for Notre Dame football to join the Big East. Not the positives for the Big East, but for Notre Dame football (not the other sports).

If you were the ND decision maker, would the positives of joining justify the decision, would it outweigh the negatives? How so?

Scheduling? BCS access? Home attendance? TV ratings? Recruiting?

Those are the reasons that schools band together in football conferences, because alone they have problems with some or all of these items and find that banding together in a collective best suits their interests.

Bill is probably right about the Catholic angle for the appeal of the non-football schools in basketball. I just naturally tend to root for the Catholic schools like Villanova and Marquette if they are not playing ND. I want to see those schools do well.

If a Catholic school is playing a non-Catholic school in basketball, I find myself naturally sort of pulling for the Catholic school to win. That is just my nature.

The participation of the Catholic schools in BE basketball is probably is one reason I chose to follow and have any interest the Big East in the first place, even before ND joined the conference. (The other reason is that I grew up in Western Pennsylvania, now live in the Deep South and hate the SEC with a passion).

For me, being an Irish Catholic is a big part of my identity (the other big part is being the son and grandson of Western Pennsylvania coal miners and steelworkers). That is largely how I identify myself. That is a big deal to me and trumps geography.

So, yes, I tend to follow and pull for the Catholic schools overall. There are very likely millions of other guys just like me all over the country.

As another Irish Catholic, Terry, I think you've articulated this well.

I'll just add that the parochial school networks of Catholic grade schools & high schools is enormous in the Northeast & the Midwest. For many Catholics, that is the school system that we grew up in & identified with. That is a tremendous fan base to tap into.

Regardless of whether those graduates went on to public universities or Catholic ones, the childhood network of friends & family is often intertwined around Catholic schools, which then drives conversation within these same circles. As you point out, it also generates bandwagon fans who follow these schools & enjoy the games even if they didn't go to those same colleges. In Notre Dame's case, they became known as the "subway alumni", referring to Irish Catholics in NY & elsewhere who rooted for ND regardless of whether they went there - or even to any college. They may just as likely have worked in the coal mines, steel mines, or on the railroads (my predecessors). This is the same kind of fan base that follows the service academies because of their military connections even if they're not an alum of one of the academies.

I sometimes think that the anti-ND sentiment is an expression of the anti-Catholic feeling that exists among some segments of our population. As someone who has mixed feelings about my religion, I completely understand some of this sentiment, so I don't want to get into a debate about that.

My point is that I'm simply pointing out a factual matter about a certain fan base & not really saying whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. It's just a reality that comes into play when evaluating & trying to understand the dynamics that come into play with the popularity & appeal that is generated by various schools.

Let me digress to a small fact about myself that exemplifies Terry's point. A native New Yorker, I met my wife in "McGuire's" - the family pub that was owned & run by Al McGuire's family in Rockaway.

Al played on a great St. John's team that finished 3rd in the 1950 NIT behind CCNY & NC State who were #1 & #2 in the country that year before going on to a playing career with the Knicks, a coaching career with Belmont Abbey & Marquette, & then a broadcasting career as a college basketball analyst with CBS & NBC.

I was a kid who was a basketball nut, a gym rat, who played every chance I got. Al was a basketball legend in my city & meeting my wife at McGuire's only added to my fondness for him & the colorful character that he was. Bottom line is that it didn't take a whole lot for me to be an Al McGuire fan & thereby a fan of Marquette basketball. I'm certainly not unique in having similar connections that opened me up to following Catholic college sports.

Terry, I see your point of view. You know where I stand. I understand keeping teams that cannot afford to play football at the BCS level. I also understand that Notre Dame is only doing what the Big East agreed to. However, I still do not like it. I believe that if you play a sport that your conference sponsors that you should play it in your conference. Also, I do not think Nova will help the football cause, but they should be given the chance to move up if they have the resources to do so. Again, adding BC gets us to 12/18, if Notre Dame and Villanova play football. I true think that Notre Dame should go independent in all-sports or join the Big East for football.

(06-28-2011 08:56 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Terry, I see your point of view. You know where I stand. I understand keeping teams that cannot afford to play football at the BCS level. I also understand that Notre Dame is only doing what the Big East agreed to. However, I still do not like it. I believe that if you play a sport that your conference sponsors that you should play it in your conference. Also, I do not think Nova will help the football cause, but they should be given the chance to move up if they have the resources to do so. Again, adding BC gets us to 12/18, if Notre Dame and Villanova play football. I true think that Notre Dame should go independent in all-sports or join the Big East for football.

Wilkie I agree with your overall point of view about conferences. I would like to see the football members split & go their own way.

If the Big East wanted to have a conference which required football members to play football in the conference, they could have had it that way. But they chose to go another way. If some members of the conference don't like this, they can leave, or they could have chosen to go another way in the first place.

For this reason I have a problem with the incessant blame game that goes on with Notre Dame. They are under no obligation to join the conference for football. That's not their doing; it's the conference itself that set up up this way.

I don't get it all why fans are upset with Notre Dame. Be upset with the conference.

I have to say that I'm incredibly frustrated with the football schools in the East. Rutgers was the NJ school that was first offered BE membership before Seton Hall way back in 1979. They rejected the offer because they were convinced that an Eastern all sports conference was emerging. That was more than 30 years ago! That's how long schools in this region have been talking about this & have not gotten it done.

No one forced any of them to joint he BE, which was a basketball conference first & a basketball-first conference after that. That was no secret.

Notre Dame is a convenient scapegoat. The problem rests with the football schools themselves, not with anyone else. whining about Notre Dame & pointing the finger of blame at them won't solve anything. Lobby your university board, president, & AD for a split if you want to see change.

(06-28-2011 08:34 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  I'll just add that the parochial school networks of Catholic grade schools & high schools is enormous in the Northeast & the Midwest. For many Catholics, that is the school system that we grew up in & identified with. That is a tremendous fan base to tap into.

Agreed, I went to Parochial schools for Pre-K to 8th grade. Beginning with high school I went to Public schools exclusively.

(06-28-2011 08:34 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  I sometimes think that the anti-ND sentiment is an expression of the anti-Catholic feeling that exists among some segments of our population. As someone who has mixed feelings about my religion, I completely understand some of this sentiment, so I don't want to get into a debate about that.

This definitely does still exist and I have a very skewed opinion away from my Catholic roots myself so I too get what you're saying here perfectly.

(06-28-2011 09:26 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  I have to say that I'm incredibly frustrated with the football schools in the East. Rutgers was the NJ school that was first offered BE membership before Seton Hall way back in 1979. They rejected the offer because they were convinced that an Eastern all sports conference was emerging. That was more than 30 years ago! That's how long schools in this region have been talking about this & have not gotten it done.

Bingo. I still say this was a dumb move on their part. I maintain the Big East would likely look very different today if they had joined instead of letting Seton Hall take the spot.

(06-28-2011 09:44 PM)brista21 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 09:26 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  I have to say that I'm incredibly frustrated with the football schools in the East. Rutgers was the NJ school that was first offered BE membership before Seton Hall way back in 1979. They rejected the offer because they were convinced that an Eastern all sports conference was emerging. That was more than 30 years ago! That's how long schools in this region have been talking about this & have not gotten it done.

Bingo. I still say this was a dumb move on their part. I maintain the Big East would likely look very different today if they had joined instead of letting Seton Hall take the spot.

If wishes were horses, then beggers would ride...

But all this does not matter, we are what we are right now.

(06-28-2011 09:44 PM)brista21 Wrote:  

(06-28-2011 09:26 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  I have to say that I'm incredibly frustrated with the football schools in the East. Rutgers was the NJ school that was first offered BE membership before Seton Hall way back in 1979. They rejected the offer because they were convinced that an Eastern all sports conference was emerging. That was more than 30 years ago! That's how long schools in this region have been talking about this & have not gotten it done.

Bingo. I still say this was a dumb move on their part. I maintain the Big East would likely look very different today if they had joined instead of letting Seton Hall take the spot.

Completely agree that things would look different if Rutgers had been the BE's NJ team instead of Seton Hall.

SH was a very surprising pick for the BE because they were so bad back then, but within a decade they were in the championship game & were it not for a blown call by a ref, they would have & should have been national champs. They sustained that level for into the 1990's as long as PJ was the coach & were a BE power.

OTOH, at the time the BE was formed, Rutgers was a monster in Eastern basketball. Only a few years off a Final Four & a number of good years with James Bailey, they were a very strong program. They would have been competitive immediately in the Big East & would only have gotten better.

Instead, they spent years wandering in the wilderness & The BE is stuck with a floundering SH program.

(06-29-2011 09:19 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:   But all this does not matter, we are what we are right now.

Wasn't it Santayana who said that those who ignore the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them?

Of course it's relevant. Every whining fan who blames the Catholic schools for the failures of the BE to move ahead with football is simply ignoring the problems that eastern football schools have always had in making the sacrifices necessary to come together as a group.

Every fan who offers simplistic solutions & who doesn't understand why these same solutions haven't worked in this region since the hay day of the Ivy League almost a century ago should study this history to understand what it will take to move forward.

Keep doing nothing and keep talking and you will never do nothing but talk!

But I have to admit that the Eastern schools and the catholic schools are damn good at talking. To bad they are not good at doing something!

Wilkie, I fixed your "beating the dead horse" thing.

Well, we see what happens or does not happen by June 30, 2013.