I think Marquette is the better basketball team as I write this, but St. John's would keep the new conference in NYC and Madison Square Garden. The new conference headquarter would be in NYC. So to get the 12/16, I am willing to accept St. John's over Marquette. Life is not always fair.

(08-03-2011 10:42 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I think Marquette is the better basketball team as I write this, but St. John's would keep the new conference in NYC and Madison Square Garden.

Yes but last year, you were ready to kick ST. Johns out. This is why myself and a few others always talk about how you can't use win loss records when evaluating programs. What happens if DePaul has a great run next year? They are already mid-pack in attendance and they suck, what if now they start selling out again? What if they make an Elite Eight, or dare I say, a Final Four, after having a resurgance like St. Johns just did? Are you now going to keep them, and boot Georgetown if they go 19-13 and miss the NCAA tournament?

This is why I say it is annoying when people start picking expansion teams out of last night's box score. All of a sudden St. john's has a decent year and Houston has a bad one, and you go from wanting to kick St. johns out and invite Houston, to keeping St. Johns, kicking out Marquette, and now not wanting Houston.

(08-02-2011 12:03 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Explain how anyone gets kicked off when you will need four of these schools + every I-A football school to vote someone out.

There is no rational explanation. It's like expecting 4 schools to slit their own throats.

(08-03-2011 10:56 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(08-03-2011 10:42 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  I think Marquette is the better basketball team as I write this, but St. John's would keep the new conference in NYC and Madison Square Garden.

Yes but last year, you were ready to kick ST. johns out. This is why msylef and a few others alway stalk abotu how you can;t use win loss records when evaluating programs. What happens if DePaul has a great run next year? They are already midpack in attendance and they suck, what if now they start selling out again? What if they make an Elite Eight, or dare I say a Final Four, after having a resurgance like St. Johns just did? Are you now going to keep them, and boot Georgetown if they go19-13 and missed the NCAA tournament?

This is why I say it is annoying when people start picking expansion teams out of last night's box score. All of a sudden St. john's has a decent year and Houston has a bad one, and you go from wanting to kick St. johns out and invite Houston, to keeping St. Johns, kicking out Marquette, and now not wanting Houston.

Who is available to get to 12 seems to have some variables that seem to change a lot. So what was said a week ago can change opinion as the variable change. Sad but as mor information becomes avail people will alway adjust. Fail tp adjust and you usually die or lose.....

PS: I like Memphis, ECU and Virginia Tech but it is not going to happen. You know because of variables and reality.

(08-03-2011 11:17 AM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Who is available to get to 12 seems to have some variables that seem to change a lot. So what was said a week ago can change opinion as the variable change. Sad but as mor information becomes avail people will alway adjust. Fail tp adjust and you usually die or lose.....

PS: I like Memphis, ECU and Virginia Tech but it is not going to happen. You know because of variables and reality.

I think that's exactly why there's a holdup. If expansion makes sense, then you *don't* want to be in a position where your thoughts change from week to week. Successful conferences look at expansion as long-term marriages - they're taking in candidates that they would want in good times AND bad times. That's why I've always argued that the true underlying value of any school is how much value it brings when it is gawd-awful on the field/court (because virtually every school is going to be in that position at some point). Do they have non-fairweather fans that still show up? Does it provide a major TV market or recruiting territory? Any school can draw fans and TV viewers when they're playing well. That's not unique. It's the schools that still draw fans and TV viewers even when they're horrible that are the real moneymakers in college sports.

If you look at a conference as a pure business arrangement, then sure, you can take a "What have you done for me lately?" approach and then just cut bad teams and add good teams on a whim. However, as important as money might be in college sports, the leagues that make the most money (SEC, Big Ten, Pac-12) are still more than pure business arrangements and that's why they're stable. You don't see the SEC looking to drop Vandy, or the Big Ten looking to drop Northwestern, or the Pac-12 looking to drop Washington State, even though all of those leagues could easily replace them with more valuable targets. You also saw the Pac-12 add Colorado and Utah instead of going for the "hot" school of Boise State. Money is a big factor, and even the most important factor, but it's not the *only* factor. You have to think of how these schools will add value to a league when they're playing badly, not just when they're at high points.

Frank, people forget that most of the time, we are always talking about the latest press release. However, I would like to see Notre Dame, PSU, Boston College and Virginia Tech to be added to the Big East. I could wait for them and for hell to freeze over..you get the point. Then you come to the reality that the choices are probally going to be three of these:

East Carolina
Memphis
Central Florida
Houston
SMU
Temple
Villanova
Army
Navy

Then we get the possible chance at Missouri, Kansas and Kansas State. And finally, the mention of BYU. So yes, the variables have chanced.

So again of course all the old guard wants Miami, VA Tech, Boston College, Maryland, PSU and Notre Dame.

Then their is reality and we will have to take the best three that we can get. So we will get the best three from the above mentioned teams that will say yes....

(08-03-2011 12:26 PM)Wilkie01 Wrote:  Frank, people forget that most of the time, we are always talking about the latest press release. However, I would like to see Notre Dame, PSU, Boston College and Virginia Tech to be added to the Big East. I could wait for them and for hell to freeze over..you get the point. Then you come to the reality that the choices are probally going to be three of these:

East Carolina
Memphis
Central Florida
Houston
SMU
Temple
Villanova
Army
Navy

Then we get the possible chance at Missouri, Kansas and Kansas State. And finally, the mention of BYU. So yes, the variables have chanced.

So again of course all the old guard wants Miami, VA Tech, Boston College, Maryland, PSU and Notre Dame.

Then their is reality and we will have to take the best three that we can get. So we will get the best three from the above mentioned teams that will say yes....

The other option is to not take any of those at all until they prove that they can add value immediately. Would the BE have been better off taking a Memphis or UCF that it didn't really want back in 2003 just to get to a certain membership number or did it come out better by letting TCU establish itself? I just see all of those schools as a large mix of "meh" outside of Army and Navy (which is based solely on name brand value) - some have good attributes and some have potential, but none of them can step in like TCU (or Louisville back in 2003) and provide value immediately. Maybe Memphis can turn it around in 5 years. Maybe SMU re-establishes themselves. Maybe Houston or ECU or UCF turn into the next versions of TCU. None of those schools are going anywhere else, so IMHO, the BE's best play is to see which of those schools (or maybe someone we haven't even thought of) steps it up to the next level. Put the onus on those schools to grab the bull by the horns instead of having the other BE members subsidize them. The BE has no need to be a training ground for "potential" - it needs immediately credible programs just like it's getting with TCU.

Well I think it would make more sense to split than try to knock so and so out of the conference especially founding members who have been amongst the Big East since 1979.

OH well if I am kicking teams out the door then Providence, Seton Hall, Depaul, Marquette would be my first choices, but out of this group the only one I would like to see stick around would be Marquette, but I as well as others can live with out them.

The sure shot ones to stay are Saint Johns, Nova, Georgetown and Notre Dame, but really are we wanting a hybrid or a all sports conference???

adcorbett, you're probably the most level headed person on here who look at all the factors involved before making a judgement without any bias. On that note, DePaul was not only bad, but we were HORRIBLE! However, horrible as we were, fans still ventured out through Chicago's Armageddon-like winters all the way to the dungeon known as Allstate Arean to cheer on the team.

DePaul is now fully invested in the success of the Men's BBall team, even though DePaul has a fairly successful womans bball team as well as having a great student/athlete in all the sports, everyone knows Men's BBall and Football is where the moneys at. Since we do not have and probably never will have a Football team, the success of the Men's BBall program is now the primary focus. They even started a new website strictly dedicated to the team and the new era. Notice that the video does not have anything from the past 5-7 some years under Jerry Wainwright.

http://www.depaulhoops.com

Once the program is on track many top games will probably be held at the United Center and it will be packed like the late 90's era when Quentin Richardson and his crew played.

(08-03-2011 10:12 AM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(08-03-2011 09:57 AM)bitcruncher Wrote:  Removing all 4 would give us a more homogeneous mixture, make us a stronger basketball conference, and create a more well rounded football conference,

Removing Marquette will not help make us a "stronger" basketball conference in any way, shape, or form. For that matter removing th eother three won't either (replacing them with perceived strogner teams would have a very negative effect long term: you need patsies). We can disagree on whether expansion to 12 would help the football conference or not (I don't think it would, but that is not cut and dry), but the idea that removing those schools makes for a better basketball conference is foolish. Those four have a better collective resume than any four "bottom" teams in ANY league, with a title, final fours, and much success over the years.

I really don't think it would change any view of the media's perception of the FB conference either. Either you are a hybrid or not: a half hyrbrid is still a hybrid. so i fyou think the hybrid affects the perceptionof the football cofnerence, your realignmed conference would have the same stigma. And I don't think that even matters to football perception in the first place. It is really more fans looking for other excuses as to why we don't get the respect we think we deserve, so we start makin gup reasons to fill a self-fulfulling profecy.

You should have posted the entire comment I made, and not just that one little piece. However, if you look, I did say a more homegeneous mixture. And without Marquette, that's true. They and DePaul are way out there. Without them, we're more centrally located, except for USF and TCU, who are exempt because they play football, which brings in the big bucks. Removing DePaul, Seton Hall, and Providence would make us a stronger conference, and even if you remove Marquette with that group, The BEast will still have a higher strength rating...

Hopefully, that clarifies things for you...

(08-03-2011 12:45 PM)ivet Wrote:  adcorbett, you're probably the most level headed person on here

Thanks, but I have never been confused with level headed. I am ususally called hot-headed. Or maybe an a$$hole, but not level headed.

(08-03-2011 02:57 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  You should have posted the entire comment I made, and not just that one little piece.

I only quote the portions I am responding to. Fewer things annoy me more than quoting someone's entire post. We can see the post. Quote what you are responding to, or if you are responding to the whole thing, quote the most important part and move on: we have already read what you are responding to. But maybe that is just me.

No matter. We both know what the conversation was about. So no harm, no foul...

(08-03-2011 04:27 PM)bitcruncher Wrote:  No matter. We both know what the conversation was about. So no harm, no foul...

that said, I disagree that removing the lower rung teams makes us stronger. Much like the SEC would not be stronger if you removed UK, Vandy, Ole Miss, and Miss State. IF you remove those lower teams, it just means that some of yoru current marquee teams take their place in the cellar. That is not a good thing. The reason we have 10 or 11 good teams every year, is presicely becasue 4 or 5 take it in the rear every year. It is one of the things that makes the Big East tick. Remove them, and we are just the ACC, only without the two "big six" teams.

Providence and Seton hall are, by far, the 2 worst ones. They should be the first 2 out, politics or not. If 4 BB schools get kicked out and Providence isnt one of them, the other 12 schools should revolt and form a new conference separate.

I'd say get rid of:

Seton Hall
Providence
DePaul
Marquette

I dont want to lose ND, Nova, GT, or St. Johns unless we go all sports.