(07-27-2011 10:11 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 09:22 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I can't help thinking "TOTAL BS" reading this guy's rant. This guy is going to abandon this business which I assume would make him money simply because he is tired of people complaining? Or that he has to follow basic societal laws on pollution?

What type of rugged individualism is that?

Sounds like a fricking pansy...or perhaps someone who really can't deliver on this business enterprise like he says he can, so is looking for another excuse or scapegoat!

That is inaccurate. The mine in the article was in the clear environmentally and all the permitting was already done. What happened is the business owner is tired of being the scapegoat of everyone else and he was tired of government and communities constantly trying to change the rules of the game to extract more money out of him.

My take is the man is independently wealthy, and he does not have to expand his business at all. This is what most of you lefties don't get. Many small business owners pour their hearts and souls into their venture, so their businesses are more than just a means to make money. Many strive to continue growing their businesses because they take pride in their venture. It would cripple the economy if business owners begin the quit as soon as they have enough money to retire comfortably. Unfortunately, this is what we are seeing in this example. The problem is tangible and you guys need to wake up and recognize that fact.

You don't have to tell us that you believe in "trickle down economics" we already knew that. We also know that it doesn't work.

(07-27-2011 01:51 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Thanks Ayn. Pollution? Who gives a **** if there is pollution as long as there are 125 people put to work. Yep, I am sure that the money made off these 125 jobs will offset the heath and environmental cost that will certainly occur in the future. Ayn is a moron as are the rst of you guys. What you guys don't understand (because for some reason you believe that "the free market" will either keep them from polluting in the first place or the company will pay for cleanup) these external costs WILL have to be paid- and by someone other than the corporation. That is the real world and that will not change no matter how many wet dreams you have about "the free market".

At least the corporation has the opportunity to create revenue for others to fund those needs. You ignore that the same "someone other than the corporation" will have to pay for the unemployment benefits and infrastructure for these people to live since they won't have a tax base to build schools or roads. I'm not aware of a single Republican who doesn't think that corporations should pay for the damage they do to the environment and/or being as clean as possible.... but the fact remains that "human existence" all the way down to growing crops or feeding cattle to be used for food or the bodily function of processing that food has unintended negative consequences for the environment. Unless you plan on banning human existence...

(07-27-2011 09:33 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 09:26 AM)georgia_tech_swagger Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 09:22 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I can't help thinking "TOTAL BS" reading this guy's rant. This guy is going to abandon this business which I assume would make him money simply because he is tired of people complaining? Or that he has to follow basic societal laws on pollution?

What type of rugged individualism is that?

Sounds like a fricking pansy...or perhaps someone who really can't deliver on this business enterprise like he says he can, so is looking for another excuse or scapegoat!

Or someone who is tired of being made the villain while everybody complaining depends on people like him for their livelihood.

If the guy is in the right and knows it...yet is incabaple of articulating why he is right...and ingoring ignorant people who will ***** and moan regardless...he doesn't belong running a business.

So you would have no problem with Ron Paul quitting just becasue it is hard and people might say something bad about him?

C'mon...you're starting to sound like a Democrat!

As Miko alludes to... this guy probably doesn't NEED this particular venture. He has options, including likely the option to do nothing and live off his assets. He's basically describing the same reason banks aren't lending. You can sit back and ***** about why people in a free society aren't doing what you want them to do, or what your formulas and studies SAID they would do... OR you can address the issues they're pretty clearly and repeatedly articulating...

In this day and age, there aren't many businesses willing to "kill the goose that laid the golden egg". They may be unaware of a consequence or have a different opinion as to the solution... but they aren't just out there intentionally trying to find ways to screw the environment. Often they own the land and its among their biggest investments. That would just be stupid.

Tom... have you ever had to deal with the EPA? Your description of "basic societal laws" to describe their function and bureaucracy is laughable.

(07-27-2011 10:11 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 09:22 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I can't help thinking "TOTAL BS" reading this guy's rant. This guy is going to abandon this business which I assume would make him money simply because he is tired of people complaining? Or that he has to follow basic societal laws on pollution?

What type of rugged individualism is that?

Sounds like a fricking pansy...or perhaps someone who really can't deliver on this business enterprise like he says he can, so is looking for another excuse or scapegoat!

That is inaccurate. The mine in the article was in the clear environmentally and all the permitting was already done. What happened is the business owner is tired of being the scapegoat of everyone else and he was tired of government and communities constantly trying to change the rules of the game to extract more money out of him.

My take is the man is independently wealthy, and he does not have to expand his business at all. This is what most of you lefties don't get. Many small business owners pour their hearts and souls into their venture, so their businesses are more than just a means to make money. Many strive to continue growing their businesses because they take pride in their venture. It would cripple the economy if business owners begin the quit as soon as they have enough money to retire comfortably. Unfortunately, this is what we are seeing in this example. The problem is tangible and you guys need to wake up and recognize that fact.

In other words...none of these leftists have read Atlas Shrugged. The industrialists in the novel were also independently wealthy and left because the government took away the incentive to even be in business any more. Liberals have no clue what the mindset of a person that actually creates things entails. They think that the money is what drives these people to create. They are wrong.

(07-27-2011 10:50 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:11 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 09:22 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I can't help thinking "TOTAL BS" reading this guy's rant. This guy is going to abandon this business which I assume would make him money simply because he is tired of people complaining? Or that he has to follow basic societal laws on pollution?

What type of rugged individualism is that?

Sounds like a fricking pansy...or perhaps someone who really can't deliver on this business enterprise like he says he can, so is looking for another excuse or scapegoat!

That is inaccurate. The mine in the article was in the clear environmentally and all the permitting was already done. What happened is the business owner is tired of being the scapegoat of everyone else and he was tired of government and communities constantly trying to change the rules of the game to extract more money out of him.

My take is the man is independently wealthy, and he does not have to expand his business at all. This is what most of you lefties don't get. Many small business owners pour their hearts and souls into their venture, so their businesses are more than just a means to make money. Many strive to continue growing their businesses because they take pride in their venture. It would cripple the economy if business owners begin the quit as soon as they have enough money to retire comfortably. Unfortunately, this is what we are seeing in this example. The problem is tangible and you guys need to wake up and recognize that fact.

You don't have to tell us that you believe in "trickle down economics" we already knew that. We also know that it doesn't work.

Nonsensical response that has no bearing on this discussion. Next...

(07-27-2011 10:54 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 01:51 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Thanks Ayn. Pollution? Who gives a **** if there is pollution as long as there are 125 people put to work. Yep, I am sure that the money made off these 125 jobs will offset the heath and environmental cost that will certainly occur in the future. Ayn is a moron as are the rst of you guys. What you guys don't understand (because for some reason you believe that "the free market" will either keep them from polluting in the first place or the company will pay for cleanup) these external costs WILL have to be paid- and by someone other than the corporation. That is the real world and that will not change no matter how many wet dreams you have about "the free market".

At least the corporation has the opportunity to create revenue for others to fund those needs. You ignore that the same "someone other than the corporation" will have to pay for the unemployment benefits and infrastructure for these people to live since they won't have a tax base to build schools or roads. I'm not aware of a single Republican who doesn't think that corporations should pay for the damage they do to the environment and/or being as clean as possible.... but the fact remains that "human existence" all the way down to growing crops or feeding cattle to be used for food or the bodily function of processing that food has unintended negative consequences for the environment. Unless you plan on banning human existence...

Turns out we get RFD channel (non-HD). I was watching it a few weeks back, and VA cattle farmers are worried about new legislation. They've already implemented new techniques and policies aimed at conservation, but they're afraid that the state will impose more restrictions and expensive demonstration of compliance requirements.

Pathetic when some bureaucrat from the state thinks he knows more about the environment than a guy who works the land for his livliehood.

(07-27-2011 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:50 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:11 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 09:22 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I can't help thinking "TOTAL BS" reading this guy's rant. This guy is going to abandon this business which I assume would make him money simply because he is tired of people complaining? Or that he has to follow basic societal laws on pollution?

What type of rugged individualism is that?

Sounds like a fricking pansy...or perhaps someone who really can't deliver on this business enterprise like he says he can, so is looking for another excuse or scapegoat!

That is inaccurate. The mine in the article was in the clear environmentally and all the permitting was already done. What happened is the business owner is tired of being the scapegoat of everyone else and he was tired of government and communities constantly trying to change the rules of the game to extract more money out of him.

My take is the man is independently wealthy, and he does not have to expand his business at all. This is what most of you lefties don't get. Many small business owners pour their hearts and souls into their venture, so their businesses are more than just a means to make money. Many strive to continue growing their businesses because they take pride in their venture. It would cripple the economy if business owners begin the quit as soon as they have enough money to retire comfortably. Unfortunately, this is what we are seeing in this example. The problem is tangible and you guys need to wake up and recognize that fact.

You don't have to tell us that you believe in "trickle down economics" we already knew that. We also know that it doesn't work.

Nonsensical response that has no bearing on this discussion. Next...

No bearing on the discussion? You just described the concept of trickle down economics in your post(ie. give the rich the money and they will create jobs and hire the peasants). Just pointing out that you don't have to tell us how you think the economy works because we already know where you stand.

(07-27-2011 12:06 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:54 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 01:51 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Thanks Ayn. Pollution? Who gives a **** if there is pollution as long as there are 125 people put to work. Yep, I am sure that the money made off these 125 jobs will offset the heath and environmental cost that will certainly occur in the future. Ayn is a moron as are the rst of you guys. What you guys don't understand (because for some reason you believe that "the free market" will either keep them from polluting in the first place or the company will pay for cleanup) these external costs WILL have to be paid- and by someone other than the corporation. That is the real world and that will not change no matter how many wet dreams you have about "the free market".

At least the corporation has the opportunity to create revenue for others to fund those needs. You ignore that the same "someone other than the corporation" will have to pay for the unemployment benefits and infrastructure for these people to live since they won't have a tax base to build schools or roads. I'm not aware of a single Republican who doesn't think that corporations should pay for the damage they do to the environment and/or being as clean as possible.... but the fact remains that "human existence" all the way down to growing crops or feeding cattle to be used for food or the bodily function of processing that food has unintended negative consequences for the environment. Unless you plan on banning human existence...

Turns out we get RFD channel (non-HD). I was watching it a few weeks back, and VA cattle farmers are worried about new legislation. They've already implemented new techniques and policies aimed at conservation, but they're afraid that the state will impose more restrictions and expensive demonstration of compliance requirements.

Pathetic when some bureaucrat from the state thinks he knows more about the environment than a guy who works the land for his livliehood.

They don't know more...They are simply doing what comes natural to a bureaucrat...insuring their jobs by making it seem as though they are doing something of substance.

(07-27-2011 12:06 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:54 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 01:51 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Thanks Ayn. Pollution? Who gives a **** if there is pollution as long as there are 125 people put to work. Yep, I am sure that the money made off these 125 jobs will offset the heath and environmental cost that will certainly occur in the future. Ayn is a moron as are the rst of you guys. What you guys don't understand (because for some reason you believe that "the free market" will either keep them from polluting in the first place or the company will pay for cleanup) these external costs WILL have to be paid- and by someone other than the corporation. That is the real world and that will not change no matter how many wet dreams you have about "the free market".

At least the corporation has the opportunity to create revenue for others to fund those needs. You ignore that the same "someone other than the corporation" will have to pay for the unemployment benefits and infrastructure for these people to live since they won't have a tax base to build schools or roads. I'm not aware of a single Republican who doesn't think that corporations should pay for the damage they do to the environment and/or being as clean as possible.... but the fact remains that "human existence" all the way down to growing crops or feeding cattle to be used for food or the bodily function of processing that food has unintended negative consequences for the environment. Unless you plan on banning human existence...

Turns out we get RFD channel (non-HD). I was watching it a few weeks back, and VA cattle farmers are worried about new legislation. They've already implemented new techniques and policies aimed at conservation, but they're afraid that the state will impose more restrictions and expensive demonstration of compliance requirements.

Pathetic when some bureaucrat from the state thinks he knows more about the environment than a guy who works the land for his livliehood.

Yep. THose dust bowl farmere REALLY knew what they were doing. Moron.

(07-27-2011 12:07 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:50 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:11 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 09:22 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I can't help thinking "TOTAL BS" reading this guy's rant. This guy is going to abandon this business which I assume would make him money simply because he is tired of people complaining? Or that he has to follow basic societal laws on pollution?

What type of rugged individualism is that?

Sounds like a fricking pansy...or perhaps someone who really can't deliver on this business enterprise like he says he can, so is looking for another excuse or scapegoat!

That is inaccurate. The mine in the article was in the clear environmentally and all the permitting was already done. What happened is the business owner is tired of being the scapegoat of everyone else and he was tired of government and communities constantly trying to change the rules of the game to extract more money out of him.

My take is the man is independently wealthy, and he does not have to expand his business at all. This is what most of you lefties don't get. Many small business owners pour their hearts and souls into their venture, so their businesses are more than just a means to make money. Many strive to continue growing their businesses because they take pride in their venture. It would cripple the economy if business owners begin the quit as soon as they have enough money to retire comfortably. Unfortunately, this is what we are seeing in this example. The problem is tangible and you guys need to wake up and recognize that fact.

You don't have to tell us that you believe in "trickle down economics" we already knew that. We also know that it doesn't work.

Nonsensical response that has no bearing on this discussion. Next...

No bearing on the discussion? You just described the concept of trickle down economics in your post(ie. give the rich the money and they will create jobs and hire the peasants). Just pointing out that you don't have to tell us how you think the economy works because we already know where you stand.

This has nothing to do with trickle down economics. This is all about demonizing small business by demanding more and more frivolous regulations plus local communities making business into the devil. The fact is the EPA within the state has already signed off on the environmental permits, so your argument about pollution is null and void. However, that doesn't stop activists that will work their hardest to shut this man's operations down and force him into unnecessary lawsuits to extract more concessions from him. This has nothing to do with taxes.

(07-27-2011 12:45 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 12:07 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:50 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:11 AM)miko33 Wrote:  That is inaccurate. The mine in the article was in the clear environmentally and all the permitting was already done. What happened is the business owner is tired of being the scapegoat of everyone else and he was tired of government and communities constantly trying to change the rules of the game to extract more money out of him.

My take is the man is independently wealthy, and he does not have to expand his business at all. This is what most of you lefties don't get. Many small business owners pour their hearts and souls into their venture, so their businesses are more than just a means to make money. Many strive to continue growing their businesses because they take pride in their venture. It would cripple the economy if business owners begin the quit as soon as they have enough money to retire comfortably. Unfortunately, this is what we are seeing in this example. The problem is tangible and you guys need to wake up and recognize that fact.

You don't have to tell us that you believe in "trickle down economics" we already knew that. We also know that it doesn't work.

Nonsensical response that has no bearing on this discussion. Next...

No bearing on the discussion? You just described the concept of trickle down economics in your post(ie. give the rich the money and they will create jobs and hire the peasants). Just pointing out that you don't have to tell us how you think the economy works because we already know where you stand.

This has nothing to do with trickle down economics. This is all about demonizing small business by demanding more and more frivolous regulations plus local communities making business into the devil. The fact is the EPA within the state has already signed off on the environmental permits, so your argument about pollution is null and void. However, that doesn't stop activists that will work their hardest to shut this man's operations down and force him into unnecessary lawsuits to extract more concessions from him. This has nothing to do with taxes.

Well, it certainly did when it talks about how trickler down economics works. It is about how some rich guy wants to expand a coal mining business and the people in Alabama ***** about it so the man quits(sounds like Palin in Alaska). Isn't this the "free market"? You keep saying he got the permits so obviously in your opinion it is safe. It is the "free market" that is keeping this poor man from expanding.

(07-27-2011 12:06 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:54 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 01:51 AM)RobertN Wrote:  Thanks Ayn. Pollution? Who gives a **** if there is pollution as long as there are 125 people put to work. Yep, I am sure that the money made off these 125 jobs will offset the heath and environmental cost that will certainly occur in the future. Ayn is a moron as are the rst of you guys. What you guys don't understand (because for some reason you believe that "the free market" will either keep them from polluting in the first place or the company will pay for cleanup) these external costs WILL have to be paid- and by someone other than the corporation. That is the real world and that will not change no matter how many wet dreams you have about "the free market".

At least the corporation has the opportunity to create revenue for others to fund those needs. You ignore that the same "someone other than the corporation" will have to pay for the unemployment benefits and infrastructure for these people to live since they won't have a tax base to build schools or roads. I'm not aware of a single Republican who doesn't think that corporations should pay for the damage they do to the environment and/or being as clean as possible.... but the fact remains that "human existence" all the way down to growing crops or feeding cattle to be used for food or the bodily function of processing that food has unintended negative consequences for the environment. Unless you plan on banning human existence...

Turns out we get RFD channel (non-HD). I was watching it a few weeks back, and VA cattle farmers are worried about new legislation. They've already implemented new techniques and policies aimed at conservation, but they're afraid that the state will impose more restrictions and expensive demonstration of compliance requirements.

Pathetic when some bureaucrat from the state thinks he knows more about the environment than a guy who works the land for his livliehood.

The EPA wants to control Farm Dust. I'd be worried also.

No, I have never read Atlas Shrugged and have no desire to read it.

And I know many a small business owner and everyone I is obsessed with making more money. If that comes from hiring more people than so be it...but it is not their driving force. Again, this is with the ones I know.

And one of them I know has a business that is heavily regulated by the state (payday loans) and he doesn't just shrug his shoulders and give up...he finds additional ways to make money. This one through some type of gift card sales.

(07-27-2011 01:44 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  No, I have never read Atlas Shrugged and have no desire to read it.

And I know many a small business owner and everyone I is obsessed with making more money. If that comes from hiring more people than so be it...but it is not their driving force. Again, this is with the ones I know.

And one of them I know has a business that is heavily regulated by the state (payday loans) and he doesn't just shrug his shoulders and give up...he finds additional ways to make money. This one through some type of gift card sales.

This is precisely the premise of the book. The value in our country is created from producers (like your business owner friends and the subject of this thread). Right now your friend elected to make changes in order to pacify the takers (looters in Ayn's lingo) and continue to make more money for himself. It's not that the Alabama coal mining operator is a bad business man while your friend is a wizard. The issue is that one is sick and tired of having to constantly adjust gov't demands and demonization while the other is still willing to play along. The premise is that if small business owners continue to be pushed by more regulation and community activists continue to threaten their livelihoods, the business owners will start to tune out and walk away. That's human nature.

So were they stopping him from opening the mine?

(07-27-2011 12:07 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 12:01 PM)miko33 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:50 AM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 10:11 AM)miko33 Wrote:  My take is the man is independently wealthy, and he does not have to expand his business at all. This is what most of you lefties don't get. Many small business owners pour their hearts and souls into their venture, so their businesses are more than just a means to make money. Many strive to continue growing their businesses because they take pride in their venture. It would cripple the economy if business owners begin the quit as soon as they have enough money to retire comfortably. Unfortunately, this is what we are seeing in this example. The problem is tangible and you guys need to wake up and recognize that fact.

You don't have to tell us that you believe in "trickle down economics" we already knew that. We also know that it doesn't work.

Nonsensical response that has no bearing on this discussion. Next...

No bearing on the discussion? You just described the concept of trickle down economics in your post(ie. give the rich the money and they will create jobs and hire the peasants). Just pointing out that you don't have to tell us how you think the economy works because we already know where you stand.

No he didn't. In THIS case, the "rich" already HAS the money. The question is how you will get it from him. Those on the right seem to wish to take advantage of his natural tendency to do what is in his own interest... to allow him to make money while making money for others. Those on the left seem to wish to find ways to simply TAKE the money from him, and then are surprised when he does what is natural and seek to AVOID having it taken.

(07-27-2011 12:22 PM)RobertN Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 12:06 PM)DrTorch Wrote:  Pathetic when some bureaucrat from the state thinks he knows more about the environment than a guy who works the land for his livliehood.

Yep. THose dust bowl farmere REALLY knew what they were doing. Moron.

Typical response from you... and often from the left. It is the exception, the unintended consequence that worries you more than the rule... UNLESS it comes from the government.

Had it not been for the dust bowl, we might never have known/cared about crop rotation etc or created hybrid plants. Business CLEARLY learns from its mistakes. Can't say that about government.

(07-27-2011 02:03 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  So were they stopping him from opening the mine?

No. As he said, the financial reward just wasn't worth the personal risk.

(07-27-2011 02:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 02:03 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  So were they stopping him from opening the mine?

No. As he said, the financial reward just wasn't worth the personal risk.

What risk?

Exactly, what risk?

And aren't small businesses...and all businesses thrown obstacles? Be it the government, or competition, etc.?

Again...who the heck just gives up but a loser?

And whether you like it or not, THERE IS A NEED FOR CONSUMER PROTECTION! We have been shown time and time again that business just can't be left to do whatever they feel.

(07-27-2011 02:10 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 02:08 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-27-2011 02:03 PM)NIU007 Wrote:  So were they stopping him from opening the mine?

No. As he said, the financial reward just wasn't worth the personal risk.

What risk?

read the article. It was a public meeting to discuss the environmental risks of a different mine...

Just like the mine in question, a permit had been issued, meaning they'd satisfied the state environmental legal requirements... yet people were still apparently up in arms. Those people brought out similar, though unrelated claims of potential health risks... this guy brought out a direct risk. If "whatever the risk is" isn't worth 125 jobs, then what is the point of a license? You jump through the hoops and you STILL get called the "bad guy."

There are other things wealthy people can do with their money. We need to think about ways to make hiring people more, rather than less attractive

Both of you should really read more before labeling the guy. You act like he's trying to get his need for a permit lifted.

(07-27-2011 02:40 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Exactly, what risk?

And aren't small businesses...and all businesses thrown obstacles? Be it the government, or competition, etc.?

Again...who the heck just gives up but a loser?

Given what you've accomplished, you don't have any room insulting a successful businessman. That's what is so disgusting about envy.

But, let's talk about what losing really looks like:

http://moonbattery.com/?p=388